LOD uploader makes no sense

[Moo Spyker]

I uploaded two of the same mesh model 2052 triangles. The first one I had the uploader generate out my LOD's uploaded it it came into SL as 10 prims (PE). The second one I manually set medium, low and lowest to the minimum triangle setting, each one displayed 2 triangles. Uploaded that one and it came in as 2 prims (PE)... Why should the combined LOD effect the PE? This would encourage builders to never use any LOD setting but the highest because it would save on L$ and PE cost... This entire thing makes no sense to me...

[York Jessop]

The highest LOD has the least effect on the PE, the lowest LOD has the highest effect, the problem creators would have if they used the minimum possible tris for the 3 lower LODS is anyone who has thier object settings on low-medium will most probably never see the highest LOD until they were right on top of it, making thier purchased mesh model a very expensive triangle.

Its in a merchants best interests to use decent LODs so that thier product will appeal to everyone and not just a small percentage of residents who have super computers.

[Moo Spyker]

that is my point though. what is the point to use the lower LOD when it charges you more L$ and more PE? its pointless. the PE should be based off only the highest LOD. Because I will not add 4 LOD's for a over double increase in prim count...

[Lhune Cisse]

It's completely possible that Linden is aiming for a profit for those who want to fool around with the Mesh; those who don't know just how to maximize the LOD. 

[York Jessop]

---

Moo Spyker wrote:

that is my point though. what is the point to use the lower LOD when it charges you more L$ and more PE? its pointless. the PE should be based off only the highest LOD. Because I will not add 4 LOD's for a over double increase in prim count...

---

Because if you intend to sell your mesh models then your customers will expect quality work with proper LODS, not some crappy model thats only visable if you have a top notch computer capable of rendering the highest LOD from a decent distance, there was a post by a Linden recently that had some demographics about what kind of computers residents have, 33% of them use computers that are basically 6 yrs old, something like 5% use top end computers, the question would be, do you want to sell your models to 5% of the population or 100% of the population.

PE is important there is no doubt about that but quality and actually being able to see your mesh from more than 10foot away is probably more important.

In terms of high PE and L$ upload costs based on the lower LOD is because this LOD will be the first to render and from the furthest away. Many mesh makers actually use a billboard for the lowest LOD (a 2D plane) this helps alot on the PE costs and doesnt cause too many problems for people with old computers as the next LOD up will render fairly quickly and from a decent distance anyways.

[Moo Spyker]

You would not need a top notch computer... only the Objects slider would effect mesh LOD. Which i'm not sure if we are all forgetting here but the LOD is for polygons and client side rendering. Mesh are low poly compared to sculpties and should not be pentalzed at all. I could rebuild my mesh model in this example with sculpties with less prims which would save on sim prim counts BUT it would be 20 times the polygon count and in fact that is what needs an "top notch computer" I have a item I built that has over 350,000 polygons worth of sculpties at over 3000 prims and people need a top notch computer to view it without lagg. The same item could be made in mesh at less then 20,000 polygons... but yet it would be 40 times the prim count because of the LOD and prim scaling systems? It does not make sense at all...

[Moo Spyker]

The complexity of the mesh and the polygon counts of the mesh should effect only downloading speeds. Once the user has the data downloaded they are still taxed with incredible prim counts for low polygon counts when sculpties are using up all of your computers memory but have low prim counts... the entire system is backwards as I see it

[York Jessop]

LL doesnt compare scuplts and meshes, sculpties were a mistake 3 years ago but because of the LL policy of not breaking legacy content they will be a permenant mistake, they are intending not the make the same mistake with meshes, infact they are probably going way overboard with them in terms of PE and especially L$ upload costs, I was just explaining how LOds are calculated from the explanations the Lindens have given us.

If you pretend scuplties dont exist like LL does, then it makes perfect sense

[Ashasekayi Ra]

---

Moo Spyker wrote:

I uploaded two of the same mesh model 2052 triangles. The first one I had the uploader generate out my LOD's uploaded it it came into SL as 10 prims (PE). The second one I manually set medium, low and lowest to the minimum triangle setting, each one displayed 2 triangles. Uploaded that one and it came in as 2 prims (PE)... Why should the combined LOD effect the PE? This would encourage builders to never use any LOD setting but the highest because it would save on L$ and PE cost... This entire thing makes no sense to me...

---

A merchant surely isn't going to put two triangles in a medium LOD. The developers have already stated that the average user on SL will mostly see medium LOD or lower. So, customers will be pretty unhappy with them. I'd doubt a non-merchant would want to do that either. Even on ultra, you'll see the medium LOD sometimes, and I know I wouldn't want to see two triangles for the distance covered by a medium LOD change.

10 PE for that amount of triangles seems odd if you used the default settings in the auto uploader. Did you go in and add a low poly custom physics shape or decompose the default LOD that was added in the physics tab? It sounds as if you didn't adjust physics, and the physics cost was 10 PE and bumped the model up to a higher cost.

Next time you upload, take a look at what physics costs says in the upload window. Your final PE is the highest number out of the three costs: server, streaming(download) and physics.

[Moo Spyker]

The physics cost was like 0.63 I used my own model it was 12 polygons I believe. The prim count was so high because of the physical size of the item... I have another thread going about that...

You do NOT need to set your graphics to full either. ONLY your objects slider. Anyone can have their graphics on the lowest and up the Objects slider to max. I think anyone would choose that over having a higher prim count. I, like many others on SL build very large creations that every single prim is needed.

--||-

[York Jessop]

So far I must admit ive been pretty happy with medium scaled meshes, my house is 25x35m and its an exact copy of a prim house, the prim house is 168 prims, the mesh model is 80PE, this is with custom LODs and a custom physics shape so I really cant complain, but I have no idea whats a full 64x64 mesh would come in as so its hard to judge.

[Moo Spyker]

if you take your house and "scale" it larger the prim count raises tremendously just based on the scale of the object, I have that going in another thread. So that combined with the LOD thing makes large objects impossible. I build spaceships that are a sim long... Many others do as well.

[Nalates Urriah]

Wow... lots of random answers. If you want to understand what the Mesh Loader is doing you need to read: Mesh Category in the Sl Wiki.

More specific to your declaration is: Calculating prim equivalent weight.

If you try to rationalize the costs based on Prim Equivalence, you are going to have problems making sense of things. The Lindens have come out and said existing prim costs have no basis in reality. As a business the Lab is trying to correct that. They can't change Prim Costs as there would be a major rebellion. But, they are not going to repeat their mistakes with Mesh. So, mesh costs are being adjusted to reflect actual resource usage and RL cost.

I expect Mesh to be a complex balancing act between improved performance and quality with cost. If they hit the right balance, Mesh will be popular. In any event, business logic requires that they start with a price and see how the market accpets it. If acceptance is poor they may lower the costs.

For those that have not followed the Mesh Developement process, you can catch up here: Mesh Stuff 

The real cost of mesh measured in resource use is complicated. If one ever wants to be able to figure how to make efficient use of mesh and get the lowest costs, upload and tier, they will have to understand why size and LoD are factors in design and cost.

[York Jessop]

weird, seem like PE scaling has been turned off on the beta grid

 

EDIT wow well this is really weird, if all 4 LODs are the same model, scaling doesnt affect your PE (possibly just my house) however when i used my 4 different LODs the scaling went weird, at max scale it was 78PE (same as standard size) but if i make it half the standard size i get 79PE lol, then the PE drops significantly as it gets smaller.

 

[Moo Spyker]

I'm not saying it makes no sense TO ME. It makes no sense in general as to why they are doing it they way they are. The way it is now screws over large builders. Looking at your blog it seems you do not build large items so you cannot know the effects of this. I build things that are a sim long and this LOD system makes it impossible for me to use mesh. I have been working with mesh and video game content for 8+ years and I know how to make low poly, efficent and video game friendly mesh's. The LOD system should help to make meshes viewable on all graphical settings without hurting prim counts on the sim. The way it is now builders can and WILL take advantage of not using all the LOD's to lower prim cost and L$ upload costs. Its the first thing I tried when I uploaded a mesh. The lower LOD's should not effect any costs... Sculpties, Textures all the data from those have to be downloaded, just like Mesh. Why should the extra data on mesh count agianst prim counts? Once the mesh is loaded its then only up to client side processing power to display that data...

[York Jessop]

Ok here is why not using the 3 lowest LODs is a bad idea

The following pics show:

Red house/triangle has only the highest LOD, other 3 are set to lowest settings (4tris) (35PE)

Green house has 1 highest LOD and 1 High LOD with other 2 set to lowest settings (4tris) (50PE)

Blue house has 1 highest, 1 high and 1 low LOD with lowest LOD set to lowest settings (4tris) (50PE) (<--best option imo)

Pink house has 2 highest, 1 low and 1 lowest (79PE)

 

 

 

 

As you can see in that last pic, I had to be practially on the steps before it wasnt a triangle, ask yourself this, if you were looking for a house to buy, which one would you be happy with?

[Moo Spyker]

I fully understand the entire concept... but again there is no point to use the lowest LOD's at the cost of having 4 times the amount of prims on the sim... There is nothing to ask myself because its either have only one LOD or I cannot build the products that I make