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Costs going up. - What is 'up'?


Pandorah Ashdene
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100% of the grid from the existing mesh-specific sandbox sims. (^_^)

The current price of mesh uploads are an enticer to encourage people to test it with whatever without fear of losing too much moneis in the process.  There's a chance that it may not be enough to cover the storage, transmission, and maintenance overhead necessary to carry the assets.  For that, who knows? (._.)

 

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But it was L$150 nwhether you were uploading one mesh or 100. I uploaded 64 meshes together and then unlinked them for 1/80 of the fee for uploading each one separately. That makes absolutely no rational sense in terms of anything to do with resource use. It would have to imply a one-off data-size independent upload process overhead of 150 times all the rest of the costs, volume of data transmission, storage, etc, including the perpetual costs. That is obviously nonsense. It cannot be anything othe than naked prtofiteering, an intent to restrict mesh upload to commercial users, or an ill-judged deterent to illegitimate content.  Why ill-judged? Because the sellers of stolen content are the least likely to be deterred by a high upload fee. They can recover it in fewer sales that the legitimate creator who has to recoup other costs too.

For someone like me, who has no interest in selling stuff, but just wants to build for themselves, it will be completely prohibitive. I already pay more in tier than I can afford, just to have a place to put the stuff. If the upload cost fee is to cover resource costs, it can only be for the upload data transfer cost and for long term asset storage without access. All other costs resulting from actual use are already covered by the PE which is paid for in US$ tier payments. In fact even the long-term storage cannot be justifiable included in an upload fee because the term of storage is unknown at upload time. You have to pay the same fee whether you see a mistake and delete the uploaded object in one minute or whetter you keep it unused in your inventory for ten years. (The asset database is garbage collected, I presume.)

 

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Well I'd like to appoligise for this post for I have a strong opinion on charging content creators for profits.....

 

Really dont understand why it would need to be L$150 minimum, I know it was like this before but if it goes live as that its going to cost silly money to upload stuff, the cost of uploading a mesh shouldnt even be a significant factor, it should be a minor afterthought to the complexities of creating meshes.

The lower limit should remain at L$10 but increase the scaling costs 'slightly' with a max and i mean serious max (like 2000PE max) should be L$500. At L$1 per PE thats just insane, if you decided to upload meshes to fill an entire region, LL wants $60 of your money for a privilege of adding content to SL, the only reason why anyone is here at all.

What I really dont get is Linden seemingly unable to comprehend that new mesh content will stimulate the ingame economy, providing extra incentives for new residents to join, old residents to return and all residents to stay, this results in more marketplace sales (sales tax) more L$ buying (transaction fee) more land rented (sim tier fees) and more customers for everyone, so why are these factors not taken into account when some genius decided that mesh uploads should cost content creators some real $$$.

They say its to cover costs, pffft .. its to make a cheap buck on the backs of content creators.

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"to fill an entire region, LL wants $60 of your money for a privilege of adding content"

I think you'll find that's a serious undferestimate! With the L$150 scheme, I calculated up to US$4500. But the real point is that you have already paid US$4600 to set up your region and pay the tier for a year. That is supposed to pay for putting your stuff there ... what else is it for? So you have already paid for it. Upload fees should only be for other costs, otherwise it is simple double-charging.

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Yes of course, i know if you did uploads individually it would cost a huge amount more based on the L$150 min, I meant if you uploaded a 15000 prim mesh scene (highly unlikely i know) but even then its a good point, $60 would be the lowest cost if you actually did that. Which is just rediculas.

If LL does this with the L$150 min and L$1 per 1PE it will be one of the most expensive upload costs on the internet lol, lets face it, 100's of websites let you upload and store your files for free, if you subscribe to an MMO for $15 per month, you effectively store ALOT more bytes than any mesh ever would.

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Nalates - just want to  jump in and correct you right there. No one has said that the baseline cost will go back to $150.

If someone said that, please send me a note showing where so I can correct that.

Charlar.

ps: MMO storage is miniscule per player, because all content is created by the company and stored on the players machine. MMO servers mostly reference content. Second Life is not an MMO (which is why it's so cool).

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I will not like the upload fee. I tend to want to see the items I'm working on inworld as soon as I can, incase I need to make any adjustments. Depending on what that is, it could be uploaded a few time. Heck, with some animations, I might upload it 10 times to get it right. Yeah, I know this cost some lindens, but who cares when it is 10. Plus, a mesh can be very technical, with pivot points, rigging, texture maps, and many more things, so it is quite possible that you will forget something, or do something wrong, and not catch it until after the upload. This is not like just uploading a texture, or even an animation.

To me, the current upload cost are reasonable. I'd even go for a base limit of 50, but 150 is way too high. And, IMHO, 150 lindens to upload a mesh, makes LL look like they are penny pinching, making money off the creators instead doing what they should to get more people to own land. If this extra upload fee came with lowered tiers, then I would not complain at all.

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A mesh file is miniscule too Charlar, not to mention MMO companies spend millions making content for thier userbase to actually have an environment to play in, in adddition they provide new content, usually for free unless its major content like an expansion, yet most expansion packs are tiny in cost to potential upload costs here and i wont even go into land fees.

Then you have file hosting companies who let you upload 100MBs for free, mesh files are usually a few hundred bytes for goodness sake.

However, its good news that it wont go up to L$150 baseline but that wont make any difference what so ever if mesh costs go up, the chances that people will be hitting the baseline whatever it is will be a small minority of creators, most mesh uploads will probably cost more than that anyways.

Current prices right now are acceptable, ive been paying on average L$80 to upload my small/medium house, i expect if prices stayed as they are, i would on average be paying L$150-200 per mesh, that is also acceptable, but you start going into the L$300 and above im gonna start thinking twice about uploading anything, especially if it doesnt sell, this is the risk you need to consider, its one thing uploading a mesh with a guarenteed sale to cover costs, its a completely other situation if those meshes never sell or dont sell enough, you start to weigh up the amount of time and effort your putting into making a mesh (which is a considerable amount of time) compared to the potential of it even being worth it, or in a worst case scenario, actually costs the creator to create for nothing.

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On the topic of upload fees, I like your point (Drongle made it as well)  about people uploading for personal use or without a definite sales opportunity. Also someone pointed out that they want/need to do a lot of work in-world and that will require multiple uploads. We need to be cognizant of that with our upload fee.

Preview ability was possibly the hardest compromise I made. We all know that being able to see things and manipulate them in context of the land and other objects is very very important to efficient content creation. I'm going to push for that functionality as soon as possible, but in the mean time you need to use Aditi early and often.

As for upload cost, based on all the feedback we determined that we don't want the baseline amount to drive people to work around it by grouping uploads. Lowering the baseline during our rollout has also given us a lot of useful feedback. I want to set the expectation that upload costs will rise from the deploy amount, but we're not sure yet how much. Your well-reasoned feedback is welcome. Spew just means I have to scroll more and might miss a useful nugget. ;-)

We're writing up some documentation to help explain the new terminology and what it means to them. This information might go out in the form of a wiki, or blog post, or perhaps I'll just walk up to each resident and tell each of them personally. 

Regardless, in the past you all have offered some good insight into how to organize it or what types of residents to focus on, so, again, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

Charlar

ps: It's probably not worth going into MMO specifics - and it's not germaine to this thread so I shouldn't have even commented on it. 

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Thanks Charlar! It is reassuring to know that you are following this forum and that our concerns are being heard and considered. I appreciate the feedback.

As a side note on the comparisons to other "games," Second Life really cannot be compared. In other online games, you download the content or have it on disk, which gets installed on your computer. The content is not continuously having to be streamed over the internet. What makes Second Life unique is its user generated content. There is a lot of unique content that cannot be stored on your computer, and it must be continuously streamed to users.

 

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I am likewise reassured, not intimidated by the idea of the elites who might be able to afford the epic sum of L$150 for uploading whatever (sixty cents US! What is the world coming to?), but will take the opportunity to upload every bit of mesh I've made in the last fourteen months upon which I can still clap hands.

See you kids in the sandbox.

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Charlar Linden wrote:

On the topic of upload fees, I like your point (Drongle made it as well)  about people uploading for personal use or without a definite sales opportunity. Also someone pointed out that they want/need to do a lot of work in-world and that will require multiple uploads. We need to be cognizant of that with our upload fee.

Preview ability was possibly the hardest compromise I made. We all know that being able to see things and manipulate them in context of the land and other objects is very very important to efficient content creation. I'm going to push for that functionality as soon as possible, but in the mean time you need to use Aditi early and often.

As for upload cost, based on all the feedback we determined that we don't want the baseline amount to drive people to work around it by grouping uploads. Lowering the baseline during our rollout has also given us a lot of useful feedback. I want to set the expectation that upload costs will rise from the deploy amount, but we're not sure yet how much. Your well-reasoned feedback is welcome. Spew just means I have to scroll more and might miss a useful nugget. ;-)

We're writing up some documentation to help explain the new terminology and what it means to them. This information might go out in the form of a wiki, or blog post, or perhaps I'll just walk up to each resident and tell each of them personally. 

Regardless, in the past you all have offered some good insight into how to organize it or what types of residents to focus on, so, again, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

Charlar

ps: It's probably not worth going into MMO specifics - and it's not germaine to this thread so I shouldn't have even commented on it. 

Thanks for the reply Charlar and sorry for the spew hehe. It would be nice to see clear cut documentation on the fee's and the reasons behind the costs. Your right about comparing MMO's it isn't the best example to use and I also understand the reasons why there needs to be upload costs but I like many others are concerned about 2 major aspects of meshes, PE and upload costs, its the 2 determining factors of how viable meshes are.

As I mentioned above, the process from idea to implementation with meshes is a time consuming activity which Im hoping will pay off and provide some small rewards for all that work and in truth I have no idea how its going to work out for me personally, It may be a raving success where I can make enough sales to cover my in world costs and possibly own my own sim or it may be a total failure where the only thing I inject is time and money. Upload costs will add to the already high costs of tier rents, sales tax, and initial L$ investment. Im worried I may not be able to compete although it seems not many people are actually making meshes or how well it is going to be recieved by the rest of the population.

As such shouldn't the current upload costs remain as they are for a few months AFTER it has been 100% deployed so that we can all have a better understanding of how its going to pan out?

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York Jessop wrote:

As such shouldn't the current upload costs remain as they are for a few months AFTER it has been 100% deployed so that we can all have a better understanding of how its going to pan out?

No.  Costs going up right now in beta only affects the few people participating in beta.  Raising the cost after Mesh has gone grid-wide will affect many more people.  The outcry and changes to people's plans is much smaller now.  If they start higher and lower it later nobody will be unhappy for the change.

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Despite cost of uploading I think now it's more necessary than ever a default draft upload option in SL viewer.

Uploaded creations with this procedure it should removed within first logoff.

It will be major help for us and not for meshes only but for everything we upload.



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I'd have to agree with Daniel on that one. If they decided to raise cost months after going live, it would cause tremendous FUD. And, mesh doesn't need anything else chaotic added during its initial release. If they are going to increase the cost, they should do it before mesh goes live gridwide.

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They did the same with Land Tier fees, didnt stop them and no doubt they will go up again at some point in the future. Imagine if they charged current land tier prices back when SL started up, they would never have got off the ground due to the collective pointing and laughing from teh whole internets.

 

Meshes need some serious incentives to get off the ground, lower introductory upload costs should be an option (aswell as a blog clearly stating such a thing)

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