In Solidarity with Norway

[Ishtara Rothschild]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

...

Sadly,

this

terrorist act in Norway was done by someone who is a self-professed "Christian"...which underscores how identifying people's values, actions, compassion, and ethics through group-labels often yields wrong conclusions.  

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The kind of far right, culturally conservative, and deeply xenophobic political ideology that Breivik apparently subscribed to always seems to go hand in hand with religious ideals. Just look at the KKK or white supremacist groups like Christian Identity. Or think of... well, I don't want to Godwin this thread.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

I feel a bit guilty because when I read the grave news yesterday, my first thought was "this must be another terror attack by radical Muslims". As it turns out there was another fundamentalist ideology at work. And probably a great deal of insanity to boot, but that always seems to be the case when it comes to extremism.

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I don't think you need to feel guilty -- I suspect that this was a first reaction for many of us, and it certainly was the knee-jerk response of much of the media.  We have been conditioned for 10 years or more by the rhetoric of "the war against terror" to associate terrorism first and sometimes only with Islamic fundamentalism.  There's an interesting article -- overstated, but suggestive and thoughtful -- by Glenn Greenwald on this, which Coyote on SCII directed me to:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html

It does seem true that it is nearly always one form of fundamentalism or another that is the source of this sort of thing.

[Ishtara Rothschild]

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bee Baroque wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQOfH8Dj1mw



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I've watched a part of this before YouTube took it down. It was shocking to see how many commenters agreed with this muddled "the Marxists have taken over Europe, they are destroying our culture through multiculturism and mock baby Jesus" nonsense, despite the fact that the relation of this video to the massacre in Oslo was quite obvious from other comments. That was almost as disturbing as Breivik -- if he indeed was the uploader -- depicting Vlad Tepes a.k.a. Vlad III the Impaler as one of his role models.

[Venus Petrov]

Norway is a strong country with good citizens and they will overcome this senseless tragedy.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Unfortunately, Norway a country with a small population, has had numerous terrorist incidents over the years.   (population of around 4.9 million)  Here is the Global Terrorism Database's statistics maintained by the University of Maryland:

http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?page=1&casualties_type=&casualties_max=&country=151&charttype=line&chart=overtime&ob=GTDID&od=desc&expanded=yes#results-table(

That data is separate from crime statistics.  

Sadly,

this

terrorist act in Norway was done by someone who is a self-professed "Christian"...which underscores how identifying people's values, actions, compassion, and ethics through group-labels often yields wrong conclusions.  

---

 

I think that one of the things that this will do is alert Norwegians to the prevalence and dangers posed by the far right there.  From what I've been reading, it's been growing as a force there even as it has been waning somewhat in other Scandanavian countries. Much of Europe right now is struggling with xenophobia and a sometimes militant anti-Muslim backlash that is, in part, a legacy of our tendency to associate terrorism with Islam.

You are, of course, absolutely right: terrorism is not the sole property of any given religion, creed, ideology, or culture. It's a "way of doing things" that was being practiced long before there was an al-Qaeda.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

---

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

...

Sadly,

this

terrorist act in Norway was done by someone who is a self-professed "Christian"...which underscores how identifying people's values, actions, compassion, and ethics through group-labels often yields wrong conclusions.  

---

The kind of far right, culturally conservative, and deeply xenophobic political ideology that Breivik apparently subscribed to always seems to go hand in hand with religious ideals. Just look at the KKK or white supremacist groups like Christian Identity. Or think of... well, I don't want to Godwin this thread.

---

Yes. 

Sadly, acts of killing are routinely perpetrated by those who embrace religion.

(I'm an atheist and a libertarian...and self- identify as such.  Strangely, people routinely condemn atheists and libertarians although neither group is known for acts of violence)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

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Linda Brynner wrote:

I have just one word: Anguish...

What else is relevant without falling into stereotyping at the moment... :smileysad:

 

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"Anguish" does indeed seem the most appropriate word, Linda.

Talking about the "who" and the "why" is vital, of course . . . but one hopes that it doesn't intrude upon the mourning.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

---

---

Yes. 

Sadly, acts of killing are routinely perpetrated by those who embrace religion.

(I'm an atheist and a libertarian...and self- identify as such.  Strangely, people routinely condemn atheists and libertarians although neither group is known for acts of violence)

---

 

Well, if Prok were here . . . (if you say his name three times, does he appear?) . . . he would undoubtedly remind us all that the Soviets, and all manner of Communists, were atheists, but reasonably handy at the employment of terror too.  And he'd be right.

I think that there can be a political or ideological "fundamentalism" too, which is every bit as dangerous.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

---

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Unfortunately, Norway a country with a small population, has had numerous terrorist incidents over the years.   (population of around 4.9 million)  Here is the Global Terrorism Database's statistics maintained by the University of Maryland:

http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?page=1&casualties_type=&casualties_max=&country=151&charttype=line&chart=overtime&ob=GTDID&od=desc&expanded=yes#results-table(

That data is separate from crime statistics.  

Sadly,

this

terrorist act in Norway was done by someone who is a self-professed "Christian"...which underscores how identifying people's values, actions, compassion, and ethics through group-labels often yields wrong conclusions.  

---

I think that one of the things that this will do is alert Norwegians to the prevalence and dangers posed by the far right there.  From what I've been reading, it's been growing as a force there even as it has been waning somewhat in other Scandanavian countries. Much of Europe right now is struggling with xenophobia and a sometimes militant anti-Muslim backlash that is, in part, a legacy of our tendency to associate terrorism with Islam.

You are, of course, absolutely right: terrorism is not the sole property of any given religion, creed, ideology, or culture. It's a "way of doing things" that was being practiced long before there was an al-Qaeda.

---

I'm reminded of how appalled I was when I heard about France, in an effort to stifle Muslim identification and ideologies, passed laws forbidding the wearing of the hajji by female students in public schools.  That they also forbid the wearing of all religious garb, does not lessen the repulsion I felt by this invasion of personal liberty.  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3474673.stm

I was in Paris in the spring of 2007, and had lunch with a Jewish Parisian woman, who expressed great concern over the immigrants, the non-French, and anyone who did not fit her definition of being part of the French-national-pysche.   We discussed many things, and this woman was educated, worldly, and sophisticated.  I was surprise to hear her state such animosity toward those that had immigrated to France to seek a better life.   This sentiment was expressed over and over by people I talked to in France, both in Paris, and other parts of the country. 

[Anaiya Arnold]

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

I really don't have the right words for this.  Norway is such a serene country.  I am very sorry that such a bad thing happened to it.

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I don't have words for it either, so I'll just quote you as you've summed it up well for me.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

---

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

---

---

Yes.    Sadly, acts of killing are routinely perpetrated by those who embrace religion.

(I'm an atheist and a libertarian...and self- identify as such.  Strangely, people routinely condemn atheists and libertarians although neither group is known for acts of violence)

---

Well, if Prok were here . . . (if you say his name three times, does he appear?) . . . he would undoubtedly remind us all that the Soviets, and all manner of Communists, were atheists, but reasonably handy at the employment of terror too.  And he'd be right.

I think that there can be a political or ideological "fundamentalism" too, which is every bit as dangerous.

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Prokofy, has quite a brilliant mind, and I admire much that Prokofy stands against...and stands for.   

Well, all communists were not atheists. 

To say that Communists were "atheists" is really to say that Societ-Communists were anti-Czarist.   It was a direct backlash against the Czarist-regime which was the true reason they followed an "atheists" appellation. They were atheist only as a weapon against  the czarist regime.  It was more politically motivated and against what was the the current power structure.  The Communist "atheist" was concerned with leveraging the movement against their political enemies...and dismantling the Church and it's power base were their methods. 

The problem is, that there are always those who wish to place themselves in charge of other people.  They will use whatever political or ideological tools they can to achieve this end.

[Ishtara Rothschild]

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

Well, if Prok were here . . . (if you say his name three times, does he appear?) . . . he would undoubtedly remind us all that the Soviets, and all manner of Communists, were atheists, but reasonably handy at the employment of terror too.  And he'd be right.

I think that there can be a political or ideological "fundamentalism" too, which is every bit as dangerous.

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Well, one would also be right to call Stalin a vegetarian, but it probably wasn't the lack of meat in his diet or his lack of religious beliefs that was responsible for his crimes against humanity. A non-smoker is not just another kind of drug user, and the lack of an ideology is not an ideology in itself. In Stalin's case, the ideology was entirely political.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

I feel a bit guilty because when I read the grave news yesterday, my first thought was "this must be another terror attack by radical Muslims". As it turns out there was another fundamentalist ideology at work. And probably a great deal of insanity to boot, but that always seems to be the case when it comes to extremism.

---

I don't think you need to feel guilty -- I suspect that this was a first reaction for many of us, and it certainly was the knee-jerk response of much of the media.  We have been conditioned for 10 years or more by the rhetoric of "the war against terror" to associate terrorism first and sometimes only with Islamic fundamentalism.

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I'm a lot more furious that after they learned it was a white right-wing Christian, some of at least the American media stopped calling it a terrorist attack, and instead are calling him a 'disturbed individual'.

Ask nearly any non-white in the USA about terrorists, and for many of us, white hoods and burning crosses come up - and a century and a half long campaign of terror by 'disturbed individuals'. And we've only to look to 1996 in Oklahoma, USA, to see that its not always the 'brown folks' who attack when whites are also victims. Its like the news in the US is trying to keep us locked in racial conflicts that are artificial by this careful choice of language.

I just get tried of them playing this same card in every one of these things. So its at least good to see that over there in Europe, they are charging this guy as what he is, a terrorist.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Sadly, acts of killing are routinely perpetrated by those who embrace religion.

(I'm an atheist and a libertarian...and self- identify as such.  Strangely, people routinely condemn atheists and libertarians although neither group is known for acts of violence)

---

Its not religion that leads to such danger - but extremism. We have only to look to Stalin and Pol Pot to see that there is such a thing as Atheist-extremism that kills in the name of 'anti-religion.'

Most of the religions in question that extremists rally behind actually have very strongly worded messages of non-violence in their core teachings, including -both- Christianity and Islam.

When any ideology becomes a tool for power-politics, its actual teachings tend to be buried over. Case in point is the Madras schools used by the Taliban; where young boys learn to recite it in Arabic word for word BUT are not taught to understand Arabic (kind of like how Christian teachings used to be only in Latin to peasants who were not taught Latin, and Stalin and his ilk rallied behind Marxism while purging people actually familiar with the Marx's writings, whereas Pol Pot just purged anyone literate).

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

---

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Yes.    Sadly, acts of killing are routinely perpetrated by those who embrace religion.

(I'm an atheist and a libertarian...and self- identify as such.  Strangely, people routinely condemn atheists and libertarians although neither group is known for acts of violence)

---

Well, if Prok were here . . . (if you say his name three times, does he appear?) . . . he would undoubtedly remind us all that the Soviets, and all manner of Communists, were atheists, but reasonably handy at the employment of terror too.  And he'd be right.

I think that there can be a political or ideological "fundamentalism" too, which is every bit as dangerous.

---

Prokofy, has quite a brilliant mind, and I admire much that Prokofy stands against...and stands for.  

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I gotta say though, that Prok's writing sometimes goes into the rage level that reminds of what they've been saying this guy was blogging about, and on the same subjects as targets.

 

[Ishtara Rothschild]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

I'm a lot more furious that after they learned it was a white right-wing Christian, some of at least the American media stopped calling it a terrorist attack, and instead are calling him a 'disturbed individual'.

...

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You'd think that a few of them would remember the RAF terror attacks back in the day. When I hear "terrorism", one of the names that pop into my head is Andreas Baader. But of course Baader, Meinhof et al weren't Christian right-wingers. It's easier to perceive the political left as terrorists.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

You'd think that a few of them would remember the RAF terror attacks back in the day. When I hear "terrorism", one of the names that pop into my head is Andreas Baader. But of course Baader, Meinhof et al weren't Christian right-wingers. It's easier to perceive the political left as terrorists.

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I don't think people in the US, outside of a few scholars and international political science buff, have ever even heard of those guys. And in 3 weeks, most of us won't even know Norway ever got attacked...

About the only 'foreign' militant group / activity that manages to stick in the US consciousness that isn't from the Middle East is the IRA - and thats probably because a large portion of US caucasians are either Anglo, Irish, or very often both.

 

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

I'm a lot more furious that after they learned it was a white right-wing Christian, some of at least the American media stopped calling it a terrorist attack, and instead are calling him a 'disturbed individual'.

....Its like the news in the US is trying to keep us locked in racial conflicts that are artificial by this careful choice of language.

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Pussycat, can you provide some links to media that is not calling this a terrorist attack?  Or links to media that has changed from saying "terrorist attack."...to saying "disturbed indivdual"?    

I've only seen media describe this as a terrorist attack.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Its not religion that leads to such danger - but extremism.

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Yes, of course it's the extremism that is dangerous, and not religion per se.  That's why I said :

"Sadly, this terrorist act in Norway was done by someone who is a self-professed "Christian"...which underscores how identifying people's values, actions, compassion, and ethics through group-labels often yields wrong conclusions". 

Because in my mind, the values, actions, compassion and ethics of a true Christian, would preclude the possibility of such a heinous murder spree.   By "true Christian", I mean someone who embraces and follows the message of love and inclusion that was at the core of Jesus's teachings.  

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

We have only to look to Stalin and Pol Pot to see that there is such a thing as Atheist-extremism that kills in the name of 'anti-religion.'

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Like the purges that Stalin did, Pol Pot used "anti-religion" as a political weapon.  He was not concerned with the actual intellectual reasoning behind the atheist mind.    What he did was to identity those current power factions that would stand against him...and he systemically eliminated them.    

I think many of us posting in this thread agree, that it is the propensity for power, which fuels much evil in this world. When you couple that propensity with a deranged mind, and extreme ideologies, then acts such as Okahomal City and this Norway tragedy will happen, and on a bigger scale the atrocities of Stalin, Pol Pot and many others.  

I think it behooves each of us to judge others as individuals, and not jump to conclusions based upon politics, religion, and nationality.  The qualities of good and evil span the globe, and all groups contain people that fall within those two realms, and many that straddle the fence between.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

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I think it behooves each of us to judge others as individuals, and not jump to conclusions based upon politics, religion, and nationality.  The qualities of good and evil span the globe, and

all

groups contain people that fall within those two realms, and many that straddle the fence between.

 

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QFT

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

I'm a lot more furious that after they learned it was a white right-wing Christian, some of at least the American media stopped calling it a terrorist attack, and instead are calling him a 'disturbed individual'.

....Its like the news in the US is trying to keep us locked in racial conflicts that are artificial by this careful choice of language.

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Pussycat, can you provide some links to media that is

not

calling this a terrorist attack?  Or links to media that has changed from saying "terrorist attack."...to saying "disturbed indivdual"?    

I've only seen media describe this as a terrorist attack.

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This morning when I read it there was already heavy criticism of refusal to refer to the story as a terrorist attack.

Looks like those articles have already been pulled and replaced, Bing still shows a cache of this morning's version:

*************

msnbc.com

Norway attacks might not be terrorism, expert cautions

Friday's attacks that killed at least 16 people in Norway could simply be the actions of a disturbed individual with no connection to al-Qaida or any other international terrorist groups, a prominent authority on Islamic militant …msnbc.com · 1 day ago

Suspect in deadly Norway attacks named

msnbc.com

In-depth coverage

***********************

 

But I had to use different terms to find that version:

http://www.bing.com/news/search?q=norway+individual&go=&qs=n&sk=&form=QBNR

Whereas this morning it popped up as the top link on just 'norway'.

- And has as its top comment a calling out of MSNBC as racist for trying to play the same card American media played when the terrorist a year or so ago flew his plane into an IRS building.

Clicking that link though instead puts you to the present version.

Now they're just calling him a suspect in the attacks - and not mentioning terror either way... But at this point, with the Europeans calling it what it is, the American media doesn't have as much room to wiggle out of the facts.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

i don't know..i mean i think to go on a rampage like this guy did for an hour of just shooting young people.. he had to have a certain amount of screws loose to start with anyways..just add a belief to get all pumped up on and  evil sh!t happens..

hitler had screws loose and i'm sure stalin did too..

extreme evil happens with screw balls in power..or when they are just walking around waiting for a sign to flip that switch..

giving this guy a label of him doing it for christianity or muslim or whatever  makes him some sort of hero in someones eyes..

thats what these nut cases want..he is just an evil screw ball nutcase like the rest of them..nothing more..

 

ETA: here is how you punish someone like this..put him on death row for 10 years..once a month maybe two.. give him a date that he is to be exicuted..right up to almost hitting the switch the phone rings stopping the exicution..

then after 10 years throw him in with the rest of the convicts in general population for the rest of his life.

exicution is too good for these guys..they need to live and keep remembering what they did everyday for the rest of their lives in a tiny cell..

http://news.yahoo.com/norway-suspect-deems-killings-atrocious-needed-013354792.html

 

 

[Peewee Musytari]

@ Bee

[Qie Niangao]

This is all really a tangent to the sentiments in this thread, but now that it's out there:  I wouldn't be too quick to label as "racist" a reluctance to call something a "terrorist attack."  It seems to me that there's a kind of semantic continuum to "terrorist" with more or less the following sequence, from strongest to weakest association with the term:

1. Identical in every way to the current prototypes (9/11, 7/7, etc.), including being executed by al Qaeda itself.
2. Executed by another organized Islamicist group.
3. Executed by an international group that's not Islamicist.
4. Executed by a domestic group.
5. Executed by a member of a group that has stated terrorist intent, but the act was not condoned by that group (and which act may have effects counter to the group's objectives)
6. Executed by some isolated individual intending to cause terror but not as a member of any particular group.
7. Executed by some isolated individual too crazy to have any particular intent at all.

As far as I understand the current hypothesis about this tragic event, it's somewhere between 5 and 6 on this scale.  To be "racist", the threshold of "terrorist" would have to be between 2 and 3.  If a speaker sets the threshold anywhere else, I don't see how "race" is really relevant to the (lack of) label.

[WADE1 Jya]

My heart goes out to Norway... sad times, let's all stick together