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Mira Kamiguwa

Will mesh be for payment on file residents only?

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I was just wondering if to upload mesh in future everyone will need payment on file.  Not just some kind of confurmation but some premium paypal accout or giving credit details to linden labs.   It seems to me that linden labs is allowing mesh only to restrict it enough that it woun't be an easy way to build items using it.  This type of thing will lead to a huge skill margin between pro builders who can afford to use mesh and normal residents.    

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Nah, I can see your point, but I absolutely don't agree with you. The reason they are doing this, is because - I would assume - they can track back merchants with stolen merchandise, which is a big thumbs up.

Look at how its going with sculpties, textures, psd templates and the like - the avarage SL resident is a ret*rd in my humble opinion. It's amazing to see how, for example, textures from Deviantart are being ripped, re-named and resold here on the marketplace. Why? Because they can and are anonymous. And I'm not even talking about CGtextures.com. It wouldn't surpirse me if they hate each and everything related to SL just because their whole libarary can be found in-world for free and for sale.

I honestly hope LL will use the ban-hammer and punish those who keep doing this harshly. And speaking for myself, if I need to pay in order to have, and actually keep, a honest business, no problem.

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Well the files which are ripped off from various sites are easy to spot imo.  Quality builders will bake there own textures and try hard to make some thing which looks good in sl.  Another thing to think about is mesh isn't easy, its not all about downloading a mesh then upload it to sl and it comes out awesome,  I know cause I've been working on mesh for a while.   They have to be edited in a 3d software package which takes skill in its self.   

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I have to disagree as well.  How requiring payment info could possibly create a riff between pro builders and hobbyist or amateur creators is beyond me.  First of all, if you are selling in SL or the market place you should have payment info registered to SL already.  Secondly it is really not that hard to do for the average resident.  It certainly does not require being a professional 3D content creator to become "non-anonymous".  My hats off to LL for stepping up the requirements even if they are as simple as payment information.

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I have heard - RUMOR ONLY - that uploading mesh will be restricted to those PIOF accounts who take and pass some sort of a tutorial about the prim cost and the requirements for mesh.

If so, it's not going to make a huge gap between "rich" and "poor" ... but it might prevent the problems we've had with insanely laggy textures and sculpts, and the ripped -off texture problem.

 

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Before I start, I would like to state that It is not my intention to be rude and I apologize if I sound a bit cocky haha. And I'm glad you bring this up because there are many people who share your thoughts.

I find it hard to believe that you can spot the files (assuming you are talking about textures) that are ripped from other sites. Given the fact CGtextures on itself has 1000+ unique textures available, Deviantart probably even more, then there is Flickr and thousands of other sites with free textures, it would require an amazing brain to memorize each and every texture you have come across. I mean c'mon, are you serious? ^^

As far as 'quality builders' concern me, I don't care. Try to see the bigger picture. It shouldn't matter who buys 'ripped texture collection volume 1" Whether it's you, me, a newbie resident, a LL employee or even Bob the Builder himself, everything that can be found on the marketplace should be a fair merchandise

Regular mesh vs SL mesh, as long as it can be uploaded it can be sold - simple. You are right about the editing part. And meshes from the internet usually don't come with nice textures, AO maps and the like, but the mesh itself can be sold and thus it can be used one way or the other. People like you, who are familiar with mesh etc, might know how to check if the merchant is having a fair business by doing some research, but not everyone will do this and it shouldn't be like that neither.

Lets say LL would make mesh available to the public, for everyone, I can guarantee you that SL and its black market will be brought to a whole new level, just because its possible. Upload, sell, new avie. Upload, sell, new avie. Take Turbosquid for example, somebody buys a 5bucks model there and sells it here on the market place. It sells very good and at some point the owner (somebody who is completly new to SL) is informed about what's going on. Imagine what he can do? Nothing really. If he is lucky - though I dont know how this exactly works - ;linden lab is able to give him an IP adress lol, but that's it. The resident could be banned, but that doesn't bring back the money that the respective owner should receive.

With payment info on file however, real life details are available. This makes things different.

 What I dont like about all this, is that these days you hear many news messages about big companies who sell real life information to other companies for spam and the like. I'm not suggesting LL would do this, but I know who to blame if I suddenly receive mail in my postbox about the new Tarzan XXL with a rotating - nevermind.

Anyhow, payment info on file is good imo, it will scare away the scammers! :D

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I completely agree, IP infringment on SL is already out of control but thankfully meshes will be under new rules that protect merchants here as much as out of world IP holders, If someone spends a significant amount of time creating thier mesh models then by rights thier work should be protected, with the possibility of quite frankly, breaking the law in world has real world consequences then these criminals will surely think twice or have someone knocking on thier front door.

I have no sympathy for those who steal other peoples work and profit from it.

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Well people will always find a way to beat the system.  Do you think the police are going to be visiting some guy in China or Russia using a fake card?  The main thing is that sl was meant to be a open system where anyone can design and upload what they want freely.  

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Yes but like most companies in the west they are bound to IP/Trademark/Copywrite laws, Lindens are no exception regardless of the nature of Second Life, to be fair IP/Trademark/Copywrite infringement is very hard to prove, if someone designs a model of a car that looks very similiar (not exact) to a ferrari for example, then sells it as a 'sports car' then there isnt much ferrari can do, however if he sells it as a 'Ferrari lookalike' then he is using a trade name to profit.

I agree there are people who beat the system, there are also people outside the jurisdiction of some IP/Trademark/Copywrite laws or in countries that dont enforce it, however, if someone in the US or Europe did this then its fair to assume they could be subject to court action depending on how far the original creator wants to go and/or how serious the infringement is, in which case Linden Labs have a lawful duty to provide the courts with a name and address or they could find themselves in court for aiding infringements.

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You can find your mesh upload status (and a link to the test) on your account page.

I don't really have a problem with mesh being restricted to people with payment info, although I do find it silly that you need payment info on your alts and need to take the test on your alts, rather than just linking them all.

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I'm not implying anything, I'm just curious about your thoughts on this, but...

What would you all consider the downsides of linking alts to a primary account? I'm only focused on issues surrounding creators (big and small).

 

Charlar

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Linden Lab already links accounts deep in the system when the same payment is used or the same IP address is used.  If you do something really bad, they can shut off all of them at once.  The benefit of linking at a higher level is simplicity in updating things like your payment info, but there are several downsides:

- Some of us use an alternate account as a financial reserve, separating the bulk of our funds from the public merchant or landlord account.  That makes it harder for a hacker to guess where the money is.  If linking the accounts means hacking the public account reveals the private alt, it would defeat the purpose.

- Similarly, many people use alternates for various purposes, and want to keep their friends and contacts unaware of the alts, or have been harrassed or stalked on one account and made another.  So any path that exposes the link between accounts defeats the purpose for which they exist.

- Any change to existing permissions about transfer of items between linked alts would be damaging in my opinion.  Items set to "no transfer" were made that way for a reason, and allowing alts to transfer items despite that setting would be bad.

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This would depend upon what gets linked, for flags such as payment info, age verification and mesh upload status, I don't see any downsides.

If the linked information were public, that would upset some merchants who work away on an alt because they have less distractions, so that wouldn't be good.

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the only downsides I can see is if for universal account login, which might expose multiple accounts to attack if password retireval isn't limited to per account and one of the accounts is hacked. this would also expose which accounts were linked which some people may be concerned about... I think benefits outweigh the risks though, especially if there is no universal dashboard.

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Mira Kamiguwa wrote:

This type of thing will lead to a huge skill margin between pro builders who can afford to use mesh and normal residents.    

The huge skill margin is already there. Some people come to SL with 30 years of RL experience as a programmer, while others never have seen one line of script in their whole life. Others come to SL with 20 year experience as a Photoshopper, while others have never touched any graphical design program. Some people learned how to make sculpties, while others didn't bother at all to learn this.

In fact the difference in skills that people have is one of the factors that drives the SL economy.

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Mesh or not Mesh that is not the question..

The question is: will it be possible to create
usual sculpties the old fashioned way without billing info in future?
Because mesh-import requires a credit card and can't be used
by creators who don't want to hand out/don't have a credit card.
If the old method would be wasted due to meshes, thousands of hobby
creators would not be able to create anything in second life.
So I'd really like to know that.

Thank you very much for your attention.

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Well, first, any valid billing info is acceptable. Also, there is an upload charge, so you'll need lindens. 

There are no plans currently to apply the payment info on file requirement to other content creation areas, including sculpties. That said, I can't make any promises that it won't change.

We introduced this requirement to as a way to force some small amount of accountability for residents hopefully to deter internal IP theft to some degree. We know it doesn't prevent IP theft, but if it stops a few punks, then it will help a few legitimate content creators and that's a good thing.

I believe the hobbist is a critical component to the ongoing success of Second Life. This requirement does not seem to have any impact at all to them.

hope that helps

 

Charlar

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You wrote: "I was just wondering if to upload mesh in future everyone will need payment on file.  Not just some kind of confurmation but some premium paypal accout or giving credit details to linden labs.   It seems to me that linden labs is allowing mesh only to restrict it enough that it woun't be an easy way to build items using it.  This type of thing will lead to a huge skill margin between pro builders who can afford to use mesh and normal residents."

I hope by now folks have gotten over the idea that it's some sort of injustice to be forced to have payment on file to build with mesh in SL.

 First of all "payment on file" doesn't mean you spend money unless you chose to upload.  And you can find other means of working in SL and use the money you earn for uploads. 

Second, there few ways to do ANYTHING in rl without some form of payment on file or verifyable info about where you reside and this goes for the rich and the poor.

Lastly, it has become common for companies to offer a basic and very usable version of their product for free and if you wish to upgrade to receive access to more advanced features there's a cost associated with that.  Companies that do this are considered very generous for offering a stripped down free version.  In SL you can still work with most off the building tools (which are still relevant) for free and without any ID.  And I consider that a very generous arrangement on the part of LL.  (And this is coming from a "normal resident" who doesn't have a business in SL, is self taught in 3D modeling, and who uses the FREE program Blender - no professional builder speaking here, and who does not see any impediments for people on a budget to enjoying building in SL.)

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Charlar Linden wrote:

I'm not implying anything, I'm just curious about your thoughts on this, but...

What would you all consider the downsides of linking alts to a primary account? I'm only focused on issues surrounding creators (big and small).

 

Charlar

I am glad you asked this Charlar. Here is what we really need:

We create a primary account with Linden Lab. Connected to this account is our real life identity and payment/financial information. The user ID for this account is what is used to connect to LL services like the SL grid and whatever other services LL chooses to offer. Once connected to a LL service, such as the SL grid, we can create characters/avatars using whatever character/avatar names we choose as long as the character/avatar names are not the user id. If LL has a limit on characters like other MMORPGs then so be it. The security and financial data for the user ID is applicable to all of the character avatars that belong to that user ID. When we log in to "play" we simply get a list of character names and select the one to use in the service during that session.

Know what this does Charlar? It improves account security with SL by a really vast jump because people that wish to hijack an account cannot even start trying unless they know what the user ID is. This is a fundamental security flaw with SL as it stands right now. And it takes care of these payment info across alts concerns too.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

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SL is more things than I can grasp, but one I do believe is about being able to create, and make a durable mark on the world. If _only_ 'professional' artists were able to make things, SL would begin to wither. Also, without a path for people to learn, then we lose a training ground for professional creators.

Oh, and then there are the people just creating art...

I want to make the in-world tools easily accessible and discoverable by new folks. I could talk about this for a while... 

 

Charlar

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