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Esbee Linden

Apple OS X Lion Compatibility

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For a lot of reasons, not just SL, I'm about ready to give up on Lion and roll back to Snow Leopard.  I'm getting the idea Lion just wasn't quite fully baked.  Apple should not be having hardware compatibility issues since they control the whole stack, but my wifi and suspend functionality has been flaky since I converted.

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Yep. Absolutely no wonder Lion has been dubbed OSX Vista. And the big crunch is that it's now imposed on new macs without even having Snow installed as option : if you wan't Snow and don't posses the CD you actually have to buy it and reinstall. Biggest joke, it even glitches with safari.

If i'd wanted a horrible interface like that i'd have bought an Ipad.

And as far as the design of the actual material goes WTF are they thinking about producing a keyboard that needs cleaning practically every day and as for the new mouse it's a total disaster, thank god for Logitec ! 

So now it's all totally about appearance and snob appeal.

Apple has betrayed it's faithfull pro users and gone for the mindless mass market. 

Used to be the most incredibly solid, functional, dependable systems on the market and a joy to use. It never, ever let me down. Dammit the first iMac i learned in off by heart less than a week while friends were still floundering with Windows after a year of pain and frustration.

Apple has become a market whore that i find no longer defendable.

R.I.P.

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Yep. Absolutely no wonder Lion has been dubbed OSX Vista.

By who exactly? As i recall, snow leopard was ALSO dubbed OSX vista. In fact if anyone anywhere suffers a problem with apple software now a days, its OMG OSX VISTA!!!1!1! Most people have absolutely no issues with Lion. A few do have legitmate software issues, and some have PICNIC(Problem In Chair Not In Computer) issues. Most of ones calling lion "OSX vista" are usually apple hating trolls anyway.

And the big crunch is that it's now imposed on new macs without even having Snow installed as option 

Kinda like how windows 7 is imposed on new PCs without even having vista or XP installed as option, or how vista was imposed on new PCS without having XP installed as an option. But yeah, its only a big crunch when apple does it....

If you want Snow and don't posses the CD you actually have to buy it and reinstall. 

If you want XP and don't posses the CD you actually have to buy it and install too. Again, it seems to only be an issue when apple does it.

Biggest joke, it even glitches with safari.

Which glitches? Safari works fine for almost everyone i've talked with using Lion including myself. It has maybe crashed twice since getting lion, so i dont see where these 'glitches" are coming from.

If i'd wanted a horrible interface like that i'd have bought an Ipad.

Don't bash something you havent used. Lions UI is nothing like an ipad. I have both, and ipads interface is much much different than lions interface. Lion is only a bit different from snow leopard. Also, windows is going the same way with windows 8 so...

WTF are they thinking about producing a keyboard that needs cleaning practically every day 

Maybe if you are an clean freak... I have an apple keyboard and i havent had to clean it in a while. Maybe you shouldnt bring messy stuff around your keyboard and you wont have to clean it every day...

as for the new mouse it's a total disaster, thank god for Logitec ! 

Nah, its not perfect, but its not a total disaster. Logitec makes good mice though

So now it's all totally about appearance and snob appeal.

Yeah, because all apple users are the same. I just happen to like apple computers because they work and do what i need them to do. it had nothing to do with appearance or being a snob. I get more snobbishness from apple haters than i do from mac people, going on about their specs and how inferior my computer is because it doesn't run DOS.

Apple has betrayed it's faithfull pro users and gone for the mindless mass market. 

I am a "pro user", a graphic designer. i dont feel abandoned. As for "mindless mass market", remember the snobbishness thing you were just critcizing apple users for? Yeah, that looks kinda snobby, calling most people mindless like that. Not to mention its how companies make money, moving into the mass market. 

Apple has become a market whore that i find no longer defendable.

You obviously do not understand how free market economics works. They want more of the market so they can get more money because they are a business. Apple cant win either way: when they focused only on the "pro users" they were ridiculed for having "2 percent of the market" and called beleagered apple, then when they go after a larger market share then they are "market whores". Quite frankly apple doesnt need your defending, haters gonna hate.

 

And LL, get on the lion compatability already. its been over a month since Lion come out.

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For Lion issues, take your pick :

https://discussions.apple.com/community/mac_os/mac_os_x_v10.7_lion

You can also see here that safari certainly doesn't work fine for almost everyone.

And sure, when Apple starts going the Windows way it absolutely is a big crunch for many, especially those who have been with mac since the OS 8/9 days and further back even.

Unfortunately yes i do understand only too well how free market economics work. Ethic, and integrity have become four letter words. And as for quality, who gives a **** anymore. Anyhow our fabulous free enterprising perverse vampire of an economic system is teetering on the brink of auto-destruction and very soon will be no more (hehe) ... oooh ! the wailing and gnashing of teeth will be deafening ... but that of course is another subject .

In order to attract more of the market it would have been possible to level up in many ways instead of levelling down like this. Too many features are eyewash and if you want your mac to run comfortably you soon realize that the standard 4GB ram will need updating to 8.

I don't know about other countries but in France, when purchasing a new mac on Apple site it's clearly stated that in the package one receives snow leopard installation CD but instead of this you receive with Lion pre-installed and no CD, and when you contact sales dept. you're informed that if you want snow then go buy it. 

(In fact Apple possessed more like 5% of the market about 10 years ago, not sure where it's at now.)

Sorry you took my post as a personal attack but it covers just a very few of the issues i have discussed with other mac user friends, notedly those in the pre-press and printing industry.

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@ Esbee Linden, you need to edit your original post to say "over a month ago" instead of 'yesterday'

I embed a comparason of two development builds of the SL Viewer as an example of how OSX Lion cant be blamed for all of the viewers performance issues.

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This version:

 

Second Life 3.0.3 (240895) Sep 15 2011 14:05:01 (Second Life Release)Release Notes
You are at 144679.0, 350553.0, 26.8 in Solace Bay located at sim3541.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.19.148:13002)Second Life Server 11.09.23.241511Release Notes
CPU: Intel® Core i7 CPU         860  @ 2.80GHz (2800 MHz)Memory: 8192 MBOS Version: Mac OS X 10.7.1 Darwin 11.1.0 Darwin Kernel Version 11.1.0: Tue Jul 26 16:07:11 PDT 2011; root:xnu-1699.22.81~1/RELEASE_X86_64 x86_64Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.Graphics Card: ATI Radeon HD 4850 OpenGL Engine
OpenGL Version: 2.1 ATI-7.4.10
libcurl Version: libcurl/7.21.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8q zlib/1.2.5 c-ares/1.7.1J2C Decoder Version: KDU v6.4.1Audio Driver Version: FMOD version 3.750000Qt Webkit Version: 4.7.1 (version number hard-coded)Voice Server Version: Vivox 3.2.0002.10426
Built with GCC version 40001Packets Lost: 8/1138 (0.7%)

 

...has been an utter and total pain for me.

Here's been my story:

 

1. Install it.

2. It crashes with hard core CORES.

3. Report them to appple.

4. Restart.

5. OH DEAR IT NOW CRASHES ALL THE TIME.

6. Delete all my caches like ALL of them physically and summarily.

7. Go back to 5, do not pass GO.

8. Retrieve an earlier viewer from one of my other Macs.

9. Play around with that and hope to hell auto updater doesn't update me or I dont click an update.

10. Accidentally click an update:

11. Got back to 5.

12. Give SL2 the flick because I'm not paying LL for a full sim per month not to use it at all; I choose Phonix.

13. Funnily enough a non-SL viewer WORKS.

14. Out of morbid interest go back to SL2.

15. It works.

The only thing I can think of is the servers crapped out OR Phoenix managed to fix SOMETHING so that SL2 didn't damn well crash.

And before anyone has a go at me for sounding a tad cranky, I'm not one of the free users, I may not have as many sims as others but it would sort of help if "upgrades" didn't actually crash me out of the whole of SL.

 

JW

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What is ironic about this forum post is I've been in SL for 5 years spending a virtual fortune and on my MAC never had an issue with any viewer. Mid July I do nothing running Snow Leopard and Phoenix latest and SL 2.0 all of a sudden can't stay connected, can't tp, once my inventory loads 33,000 items boom I'm logged out, log back in crash follow instructions from tickets/forums, clear cache, check DNS, maybe it's your connection which it isn't and this goes for 2 tickets for Phoenix and SL no solution, go back to Snow Globe but, wait SL won't let you login anymore with 1.2 wonder why? so I use 1.4 and still same crashes, walk and can't tp, inventory loads and until it does all is well and then boom crash. So I've been in and out of SL only being able to stay connected short times now for months. Somedays I can login no issues all works other days same problems. What's wrong with this picture and all the other second lifetime folks here spending lindens?

Fact - I ran Snow Leopard for months no issue at all Mid July 2011 boom constant crashing SL issues all viewers. What coincides with this issue Mesh release! All the forums, posts July 2011 and all of a sudden there's something wrong why?

Fact - I log tickets follow tickets that refer to tickets, I follow support instructions from tickets and no resolution, I view forums to try this and that, then I find forums saying load Lion and it works for me on some viewers so I spend the money and upgrade my memory and upgrade to Lion and same song and dance everyone blaming this on Apple well guess what why are we calling Apple to fix this issue if in fact it's a MAC issue? Shouldn't the Lindens be calling Apple? Aren't we the ones spending money in world as I have for years? Why is this dragging on and why is it that not only is this impacting SL viewers but, also Phoenix as well?

Fact - I love SL it is my virtual second life as with many of you but, stands to reason leaving well enough wasn't enough and now there is mesh and the variable in all of this isn't Snow Leopard or Lion it's everything worked perfectly for all of us on MAC's and now in July something happened and for me it wasn't Lion cause I didn't upgrade then.

Fact - I want my Second Life back and I don't want to go out and buy a new computer now cause these issues occurred for SL at the same time on multiple platforms and multiple viewers. I work with software everyday and sunsetting is a standard but, while I see posted about Lindens testing what I don't see is we contacted Apple and there might be a compatibility issue on several OS's we didn't anticipate moving to Mesh. If you want to test the theory give us an area running no Mesh updates going back to pre-July and let us login with an older viewer if it works on Lion and Snow Leopard then we can pinpoint the root cause not let us fight to stay connected to SL when in fact we're not newbs we're paying SL customers for years and enjoy it so help us and let us continue without making this process of guessing so costly when we want to spend money in SL to have fun! Thank you I think I said enough! 

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WOW! Here I am running viewer 3.0.0 with Lion with no trouble at all (well just two Mac versions of the blue screen of death since 3.0.0 came out--otherwise many many happy SL hours with no problems). So I go to download the new viewer 3.0.3.2 to discover that by using 3.0.0 with Lion I was taking my Second Life in my hands! Had NO idea! :)

But--bit reluctant to download 3.0.3.2 now--if it aint broke...

Maybe I could be brave and see what happens?? i'll report back if I take the plunge...

Incidentally I haven't had any trouble with Lion period!

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So where are we with all this? For the last month My MacBook Pro with the latest SL viewer (I have reinstalled it a number of times) tikes about 10 minutes to load and I can not read peoples profiles.  Is there any Linden reading this?  Do we just hold tight and wait for an upgrade?  This is rather inconvenient

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Nice post. I totally agree with you on all counts.  For the record, I use Win and MAC and I prefer my MAC, hands down!  The interface is so much easier, basic processes like installing software are a snap, and everything just seems so much more intuitive.  As for running Windows software, VMWare Fusion is my friend.  :)

With respect to any new OS, the issue to consider is timing.  Given that Vista was a bloated dead fish built on layers and layers of old WIN code, it also out at a time when software companies were feeling worn out by updating drivers for yet another WIN OS. Very few ppl gave it the necessary attention, so there were widespread problems with drivers. (Winces at the memory)

I suspect in this case it was much the same. Although Lion is NOT a dead fish, I don't think developers gave it enough attention.  it is not MAC or WIN's responsibility to accomodate every one of the millions of programmes in the world: It is the responsiblity of the software developer to test and adjust to any new OS. The pre-release developer copies of Lion were available in quite enough time for this.  We had a copy in our shop.

As for MAC bashing, it is my impression that most ppl like that are quick to bash just about anything.  My theory is that they do it to feel that they are 'intelligent' enough to be discerning.  Or, to put it another way "Obviously I am brilliant!  I understand all with such depth and clarity that I feel confident pontificating on it."  I guess if it makes them feel better about themselves, then so be it.  Sadly it has the reverse effect on the people they want to impress: Most of us just think "What an idiotic blowhard."  The people who impress me are the ones who know enough to know there is so much more to learn - always. 

(Raises her glass to the ones who listen and watch more than they speak. Isn't life fascinating?)

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Charlie Loxely wrote:

As for MAC bashing, it is my impression that most ppl like that are quick to bash just about anything.  My theory is that they do it to feel that they are 'intelligent' enough to be discerning.  Or, to put it another way "Obviously I am brilliant!  I understand all with such depth and clarity that I feel confident pontificating on it."  I guess if it makes them feel better about themselves, then so be it.  Sadly it has the reverse effect on the people they want to impress: Most of us just think "What an idiotic blowhard."  The people who impress me are the ones who know enough to know there is so much more to learn - always. 

(Raises her glass to the ones who listen and watch more than they speak. Isn't life fascinating?)

Charlie, I don't have a theory to explain why people bash. It could be they want to feel more intelligent, or want to feel the decisions they've made are right, or are trying to sooth themselves over not having what they want. When I was little and Mom told me I couldn't have the fairy princess Halloween costume we saw at Penneys, I decided fairy princesses were stupid anyway, a prejudice I keep to this day, but only for myself.

I'm in complete agreement with you that there is always more to learn. It's why we get up in the morning, isn't it?

(Raises her mug of root-beer and welcomes you to the forum ;-)

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Well, lo and behold, the newest official but non-dev, non-beta viewer (Second Life 3.1.0 (243176) Oct 16 2011 12:27:14 (Second Life Release)) manages to run without crashing.

Hooray!

I like some of the features in other viewers and Phoenix / Firestorm actually renders what it is able to render faster than Viewer 2. However, it wasn't until Viewer 2 turned up that prims actually loaded on Macs (I kid you not. You could be standing there looking at something and one prim would refuse to load - at all - then you'd switch to one of the other viewers [eg. emerald] and it was a perfectly fine construction).

 

DSL

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i will confirm this as well. :) No crashes... well, not any that weren't user created. LOL

For comparison, I'm running: iMac i5 quad core, 4MB RAM, ATi/AMD HD6750M w/ 512MB video RAM, and Mac OS X Lion (10.7.2, build 11C74).

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has anyone else have a problem where when you set graphics to high or ultra in phoenix  they become blocky?

This happend on my 13 MB pro (i5) as soon as i upgraded to lion.

i make videos in sl and need the best quality i can get... this really sucks

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yes scunky1, when you disable the atmospheric shaders it gets fix... but of course you lose the windlight effects (clouds and so). on the other hand, you can enable the atmospheric shaders and set the windlight sky detail to minimum (16). it minimizes that effect, but isnt perfect either... :matte-motes-crying:

if you find any way to fix it, let me know please...

regards.

Salanon Oliva.

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OK... an update to my previous post (message #63) about not having crashes... 

While this may be true, to some extent, that I haven't had viewer app crashes while using the SL viewers, I have had other problems, such as one sim works flawlessly (able to move, everything renders, able to use Ultra graphics with Lighting and Shadows (ignoring the milky eyes already addressed in the Jira), watching the neat sky and wind animations...) while another sim doesn't work at all (nothing rezzes, no sound, draw distance set to as minimum as possible, low graphics). Yet, in those sims that don't work for me, others using Windows-based viewers are able to move about as easily as I can in sims that do work.

These "no-work" sims, as I call them, are repeat offenders, no matter whose viewer I use... no matter what time of day. They fail to work for me every time I've visited.

I can only surmise that perhaps there is something about all of the Mac viewers, that have code in common with each other, that still don't like the under-the-hood changes in Lion. I have anecdotal evidence from a couple of other Lion users I know that they have also grumbled the same misgivings as I have and have gone back to either an older Mac system or returned to their Windows box to get their SL work done. I can do neither; no backup Windows machine and my older Mac is an iBook G4 which can only run a less-than-handful number of PPC capable v1 viewers.

This may all be on me but I doubt it. I run a very stock Lion system with no OS hacks or "additions." I've not made any command line tweaks. I'm as out of the box clean as can be. I can only think that SL continues to not be fully compatible with Mac OS X Lion... at least as far as viewers are concerned.

Is it possible to make a new install of a viewer NOT use the ~/Library/... location? Maybe Apple has done more to that directory structure than simply making it hidden; maybe there are other permissions changes that haven't yet been taken into account in the viewer code?

I kknow I'm grasping at straws here but... any suggestions from anyone else?

Thanks.

[edited to add the viewers I have tried...]

SL viewers since 3.0.3
Firestorm-Mesh-Beta
Dolphin 3 

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same 13inch mb and i'm having exactly the same prob after lion's update, on all my viewers... so i've to use my old laptop to shoot my photos. Any good news or solution for that issue ? 

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can someone send me a link to the download of second life for lion? becuase every time i download secondlife for mac it doesnt work...  download only a blanc page, and when i oppen it my computer asks me to verify my disk... is this normal?

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I have not been able to view media on a prim either and wonder if this has anything to do with OpenGL. I've been doing a bit of research today into the OpenGL performance of Mac OS X Lion.

While 'tis true that Lion supports OpenGL 3.2, thats only for the core functions and not at the compatibility level. Some OpenGL stuff that I have to test on my Lion system will correctly report Lion running with OGL 3.2, yet the SL viewers report only OGL 2.1. Apparently, it seems, the viewers are coded for a compatibily context and not with the core context.

Again, I don't know if OpenGL has anything to do with media on a prim, but if it does, I fear Mac users won't be beneficiaries of it until something changes in the viewer code to recognize Lion's OGL 3.2 core context.

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Hi, I have bought a brand new MacBookPro, could you please tell me how to set the sl settings so that i could see mesh?

Specs

Processor  2.4 GHz Intel Core i7, 

Mac OS X Lion 10.7.4 (11E53)

Intel HD Graphics 3000 512 MB

8 GB 1333 MHz DDR3

Thanks in advance

Swann Jie

 

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