MESH... Merchants....and the Market

[Medhue Simoni]

Madeliefste, this example is not quite right. LODs on mesh are completely customizable. So, you could actually make a mesh that does not loose it's original shape at all. You will just end up paying for it in PE.

I'm assuming that you just used the default settings. If you did adjust the LODs to a reasonable level, then the sculpty would be far worse then the LOD on the mesh. You can even create all the LODs for each level of depreciation, so the LODs are all up to you. A LOD expert should really chime in on this.

[Medhue Simoni]

Here is 1 thing all creators need to remember.

Mesh, and collada are common 3d formats. which means that your stuff can be used in other worlds, not related to SL at all. Sculpts will not work in any non SL based world, ever.

In a year from now, I would much rather have 100 mesh things, then waste my time on 100 sculpty things that I can't ever use again. Of course, I do not make alot of furniture, and every creator needs to evaluate the situation for themselves.

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Here is 1 thing all creators need to remember.

Mesh, and collada are common 3d formats. which means that your stuff can be used in other worlds, not related to SL at all. Sculpts will not work in any non SL based world, ever.

In a year from now, I would much rather have 100 mesh things, then waste my time on 100 sculpty things that I can't ever use again. Of course, I do not make alot of furniture, and every creator needs to evaluate the situation for themselves.

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Actually - your statement is either incorrect or a bit misleading .... you said... " Sculpts will not work in any non SL based world, ever.".

I read that to mean that you think Sculpty Maps do not work anywhere but SecondLife grid. 

Sculpt maps will work in SL or in the open grids like Inworlds.  So, unless you were meaning to that IW is "SL Based", the statement would be incorrect.  I have been selling my landscape sculpty map packs in IW for 9 months now.

I suspect you meant Sculpty Maps wont work in non-opengrid worlds.  I just want to clarify your point in case others may have understood your statement like I did.

[Medhue Simoni]

Yeah, that is what I meant, but I don't consider any world based on SL technology to be opensim based. So I think this is more of a matter of opinion or just a matter of bad wording on my part.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Madeliefste, this example is not quite right. LODs on mesh are completely customizable. So, you could actually make a mesh that does not loose it's original shape at all. You will just end up paying for it in PE.

I'm assuming that you just used the default settings. If you did adjust the LODs to a reasonable level, then the sculpty would be far worse then the LOD on the mesh. You can even create all the LODs for each level of depreciation, so the LODs are all up to you. A LOD expert should really chime in on this.

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Yes I did use the default upload settings. Like I said I did not dive very deep in creating mesh specific for SL, yet. I just have been dipping my toes in the SL Mesh waters.

What you suggest I also tried a while ago, making a mesh that does not loose shape. I have added that one to this picture, its the most right one. 

I gave the new mesh an extra LOD level in the 3d program. Now we win one LOD level of stability in SL, but for what price?  The new mesh has a primcount of 22. Adding another extras LOD level on the original so also the lowest mesh stays in shape, will bring the primcount to about 200, I did not even try that, because it's not a realistic option anyway.

So adding a extra LOD level in the orginal is also not the way to it.You must try to keep the orginal higest level as low as possible and find better solutions for the lower levels.

 

But now I want to show you another test from someone who is really digging deep into mesh for SL, Gaia Clairy.

At the left the sculpty, at the right the mesh. De sculpt object and the mesh opbject are made in exact the same way. The only difference is the one used the sculpt upload format and the other the mesh upload format to get the object in SL.

For the handle in the upperpart of the picture she made a mistake, it should look nice round like the handel on the sculpt, so that is difference is not cause bij SL.

The upper kettles are seen from 40 meters away. Both look the same. Then the kettles in the lower part of the picture are seen from 60 meters away. At 60 meters the mesh transforms to a lower LOD level, while the sculpt still stays in shape. The sculpt has 10 meters more "LOD range", it deforms not before you look at the object from 70 meters away. 



 

 

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Here is 1 thing all creators need to remember.

Mesh, and collada are common 3d formats. which means that your stuff can be used in other worlds, not related to SL at all. Sculpts will not work in any non SL based world, ever.

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Actually - your statement is either incorrect or a bit misleading .... you said... " Sculpts will not work in any non SL based world, ever.".

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The statement is incorrect.

Mesh is a model made in a 3D program. Whether you make it in Blender, Maya, Max, Sketch up, its just the collective name of objects that you model in one of these programs.

 

Collada is 3D format. It was develloped to function as a bridge between several 3D programs. I work in Cinema 4D, my collegue works in 3D Max, we cannot work together on the same models if we would like to so without something that translates the c4d files to 3D Max files and vice versa. We can export to collada which both our programs can ´read´.

Once it existed it was picked up by game engines (like Unity and such), and now its picked up by SL as well as useable format for mesh import. 

Basicly is every sculpt a mesh. When you create a sculpty you start with making a mesh. It is a mesh with much limitiations, because the endresult must be able to fit into the SL system. The mesh you have created can only become a sculpty by writing its information to a colormap (the sculpty map). That was a long time the only format of mesh SL could show.

But I guess most modelers don't only safe their sculpty maps, but also their originals from the 3D program. Those are meshes you can use outside SL. Not only on open sims grids, but wherever you like. It are not the most ideal meshes, because they were created for the strange habbits of SL, but it are still meshes, you can use them elsewehere, you sell them elsewhere, you can make derival works with them. You are free to do with them whatever suits you (as long as you are the original creator who owns all IP rights including textures).

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

As I said before, I have not played with mesh clothes enough to really be sure that everything will work as it should. What I do know tho, is that mesh clothing will react to the morphs(meaning that it will stretch in the body editor). Not all sliders will affect the mesh, but I think most that stretch the avatar, do work. Poking thru should not really be an issue if the mesh is rigged properly. 

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I'm interested to know more about this subject.

To what morphs do they react? Does the clothing creator have to make these morphs, or are they already 'build into the avatar' and will every mesh cloth react to this 'avatar morph', I have no idea how I must understand this.

Or any idea where I can find more info about this?

[Medhue Simoni]

Yes, Gaia Clairy has done some great tests, but these issues are related to how and when LL decides to use each LOD. From what I understand, which LOD is also determined by the size of the object. Personally, I'm not all that concerned with how things look from any distance past 20-30 meters, but I don't make things that require detail from far away.

My statement about formats was just a generalization, probably cause i was to lazy to explain it. Yeah, a sculpt can be used in other applications, but at that point, would it not be then an obj file, or something similar? I've made sculpts in wing3d, they had a nice plugin for sculpts, and I could make that same file an obj. I'm sure there are better programs for this kind of stuff. But, a sculpt is an extremely inefficient model, with reguards to vertices and polygons.

As far as I know, there is very little documentation on rigging. The only reason I know anything about it is the tests that I've done, listening to others, and seeing what they are making. I have made a mesh avatar and used the slider bars in the edit body shape windows, these are the morphs i was speaking of. Like I said, not all the sliders work, but most that actually stretch out, or squash the body shape will also affect the mesh.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:My statement about formats was just a generalization, probably cause i was to lazy to explain it. Yeah, a sculpt can be used in other applications, but at that point, would it not be then an obj file, or something similar? I've made sculpts in wing3d, they had a nice plugin for sculpts, and I could make that same file an obj. I'm sure there are better programs for this kind of stuff. But, a sculpt is an extremely inefficient model, with reguards to vertices and polygons.

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Depends on the program, things I made in Blender are saved as .blend files. Things I made in C4D are saved as .c4d files. Obj is also a well known file format. Most 3d programs can read obj. and for example Photoshop (ext) can read .obj

In most of the cases a sculpt is an extremely inefficient model, I admin. But on the other hands a single prim sculpt is a still a very small model for a 3D program. So the only consequense is that my computer has to work a tiny bit harder when I use a sculpt mesh then when I had created a more efficient mesh from the start. But since the machine has no problem to work with meshes that are as large that they would take a two sims in SL, for me this inefficiency does not matter. The difference is not more then 1 sand more or less on a beach.

Would be different when I had to model things for lets say a game compagny, then efficiency counts for the end product, then I can not come up with sculpt like inefficienty. But for most things I do in 3D at the moment I could perfectly well use my SL sculpt meshes.

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As far as I know, there is very little documentation on rigging. The only reason I know anything about it is the tests that I've done, listening to others, and seeing what they are making. I have made a mesh avatar and used the slider bars in the edit body shape windows, these are the morphs i was speaking of. Like I said, not all the sliders work, but most that actually stretch out, or squash the body shape will also affect the mesh.

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I know a bit about rigging and I can rig at beginners level. Rigging is one of the hardest things to do in 3D. Weighting (which also has to do with rigging) is another one. People who are good at those things will be most important for the development of mesh in SL.

Rigging is something different then morphing. Rigging is making a functioning skeleton for a 3D object. Our avatar is a rigged mesh. But you could as well rig a dog or a whale.

The only forms of morphing (at least that I am aware of that it is morphing) are the facial expressions and some hand expressions in our avatar. Morphing has actually nothing to do with the skeletion that is in the avatar. A morph is a variation of the mesh. It is made by moving points of the mesh itsself to different spots. So your avatar can laughs because there is a mesh variation of the head available with the laugh expression.

Same for the peace sign an avatar can make with the fingers. There are no joints and bones in SL fingers. The peace sign of the fingers is a morph of the basic hand mesh.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Madeliefste Oh wrotr:

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The only forms of morphing (at least that I am aware of that it is morphing) are the facial expressions and some hand expressions in our avatar. Morphing has actually nothing to do with the skeletion that is in the avatar. A morph is a variation of the mesh. It is made by moving points of the mesh itsself to different spots. So your avatar can laughs because there is a mesh variation of the head available with the laugh expression.

Same for the peace sign an avatar can make with the fingers. There are no joints and bones in SL fingers. The peace sign of the fingers is a morph of the basic hand mesh.

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I assumed that when you edit your normal SL avatar, and you use those sliders to make your arms longer, or chest bigger, those are morphs also, but i could be wrong.

[Madeliefste Oh]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it is something different. I think you are editing the length of the bones. You must see the skin (not the photoshop skin sl merchants sell, but the mesh skin) as something that is attached to the bones. When you stretch the bone, the skin stretches with it. When you rotate the bone, like when you walk in sl, the skin rotates with it.

So for avatar clothes, yes I can understand how you can let them move with the avatar. When the clothes have bones on exact the same position as the SL avatar... or maybe you can even see it better as: the clothes use the bones of the SL avatar. Then when an avatar edits her legs and makes them longer, the pants that 'listens' to the SL bones will grow together with the legs.

[Madeliefste Oh]

I just found a movie of a guy who has attached an extra bone to his avatar skeleton, a stomach bone

 

 

This is a pic of a detail of the skeleton. The white point that sticks out of the body is the new 'stomach bone'.

[Medhue Simoni]

Yes, I heard you can only move an attached bone on 1 axis. LL has talked about custom skeletons, but they said this would be well after the coming mesh release. I'd bet only if we begged and pleaded too. With a completely custom set of bones, many things are possible, even our own custom facial expression, and, of course custom hand and finger animations. Plus, custom bones should also fix the eye issues with mesh avatars. Even just adding bones would be cool tho. Imagine animated tails, and an animated 2nd set of arms.

[Madeliefste Oh]

Animated dragons with seven heads...

But I guess the development of mesh is going to take a real long time. LL is giving us the very first version of Paint while it can be the newest version of Photoshop.

For example the rotation point of a mesh cannot be defined in SL when mesh is released. So a mesh can only rotate around the point the SL defines for him as rotation point, which is in the center of the mesh. So the mesh door in your mesh castle won't work, because it cannot rotate at the right or left side of the door. Unless you are so smart you can read 3D program scripts and translate them for SL, you won't get your door working.

While it is so easy for sculpts now. I only have to define the pivot point in my 3d program, and SL understands perfectly well where the rotation point of my sculpt must come and produces it. 

[Medhue Simoni]

Actually, in 3ds Max, it is easy to change the pivot point. You just create a basic box, then attach that box to the mesh. The mesh's pivot point will change to whatever the boxes pivot point was. Then I just dettach the box and delete it. I was told this does not work in blender, but it works for me.

[Madeliefste Oh]

In Blender it is also easy to change the pivot point. You do it in a different way then in 3D Max, but just as easy.

But actually it does not make any difference which program you use to set your pivot point. In the end we all export our meshes in colada format. The colada file knows where you want the pivot point to be, but then when the colada files comes into SL, SL does not reproduce this information. SL just ignores what the colada file tells him about the pivot point. That is how it will be when mesh is released on the main grid. Work arounds are possible, but very hard. I stopped working on meshes that need specific rotation points, I just wait till LL releases a version of mesh where the pivot point functions.

But about Blender... don't underestimate this program. Blender is a very powerfull 3D program that can compete on most points with commercial programs that costs like 3000 usd. But Blender is open source, so free availabe for all of us. In that sense it's ideal for a group like us, SL creators.
Only thing with Blender is the user interface is less intuitive then most other programs, that makes it for the very beginner a bit harder to learn the basics of modelling in 3D. But Blender is working on that as well, since Blender 2.5 the user interface has improved a lot already.
I find Blender most interesting. I'm still using it and learning about it, next to my other 3D program.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

But actually it does not make any difference which program you use to set your pivot point. In the end we all export our meshes in colada format. The colada file knows where you want the pivot point to be, but then when the colada files comes into SL, SL does not reproduce this information. SL just ignores what the colada file tells him about the pivot point. That is how it will be when mesh is released on the main grid. Work arounds are possible, but very hard. I stopped working on meshes that need specific rotation points, I just wait till LL releases a version of mesh where the pivot point functions.

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The last time I tried changing the pivot point, which I did for the wings of a dragon, it worked. Others were saying that it did not work for blendor. LL actually made some kind of workaround for it, but then pulled that for some reason. 3ds Max never needed to use that workaround. Like I said tho, last I checked, changing the pivot point in the way I described still works for 3ds Max.

Oh, and my dragon sucked, It was just another test. I won't be selling it, lol.

Blender, for me, is just a bit too confusing. I've watched tutorials and all but have yet to sit down and get serious about using it. Max is the program that I started learning on, and the basics are not that hard to learn. Maybe i will try to learn blender, as I'm working on a very old version of Max, 3ds Max 8, which I'm lucky it works, lol.

[Ashasekayi Ra]

At the last mesh meeting (or the one right before it), Prep Linden stated that changed pivot points won't be supported at the initial release of mesh. But, it was high on the list of things to add after the release. Until then, we'll we have to use the old workaround from the early mesh beta days.

[Medhue Simoni]

Hmmm, yeah, I just tried to change the pivot as I explained earlier. You are right, it does not work anymore. It seems that this was also connected to the fix LL was working on, it was just easier in Max, and you did not need to leave the pivot prim attached. Well, i hope they fix that soon. Not being able to change this is kind of a big deal. Ha Ha, maybe not to LL, cause they penalize us for adding any scripts.

[Ashasekayi Ra]

Heh... yes, it is quite a big deal if you want to use modular building methods. But, I'm *hopeful* they'll fix the pivot points.

And, don't get me started on the added costs for scripts.

[Arwen Serpente]

Medhue, I've just read some info from a prefab sculpty/Mesh creator about Mesh. This pertains specifically to Mesh that will be worn by an avatar (clothing, jewelry, shoes, etc), not Mesh to be rezzed inworld like furniture or buildings. Here are a few highlights:
1) Mesh weighted clothing will move with the avatar, however, it cannot link anything to it (i.e., a weighted skirt cannot have floaty prims or sculpted waistband attached - they would have to attach to a different attach point). Further, the avatar cannot really modify it in any way because it is sized to a particular "skeleton" - the original Mesh creator's model, not the model shape of the clothing creator or the end customer, so if parts of the avatar show through, there's nothing they can do other than change their shape (meets with a lot of dislike among customers, totally understandable), or, wear an alpha (also meets with some dislike).
2) The creator name will be the name of the Mesh creator, not the avatar creating the final piece UNLESS the mesh file is purchased and then "re-uploaded" by the purchaser (and only then by an avatar with PIOF). So the cost skyrockets (first buying a full perm Mesh, then uploading it to have your name on it). Most sculptors right now sell their maps with no mod permissions - useable to build with inworld, but not saveable to computer. I suppose this could be worked around by buying the file the same way as buying a PSD file and downloading it, then uploading the final product to SL. The costs could potentially be huge, as right now, when a sculpty pack is purchased inworld, usually it includes multiple varieties of the same item (say shirt collars - you get dozens of options so you can switch between them depending on the build).
3) It wasn't clear if non-weighted Mesh that might be used for jewelry could be linked to other prims or sculpties. Assuming it can be, if an avatar does "stretch" a finished product (combination Mesh, sculpt, prim, say a necklace), then because the PE changes, that would potentially break a build if it reaches more than the allowed "linkable" 256 prims

If that's all true, then Mesh is not just another building tool like sculpties and prims. It's really pretty different. Not sure now how I would use it in clothing creation since allowing customers to "mod" to fit is so very important, as well, as having the clothing/jewelry/shoe creator name on it rather than the Mesh maker. I also worry about the inflation of prices for end products using Mesh due to the complexity of working with it. It's really not a great time, economy wise, to be increasing prices. Wanted to check in here to see if you and the other Merchants understand this the same way.


[Toysoldier Thor]

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Arwen Serpente wrote:

Medhue, I've just read some info from a prefab sculpty/Mesh creator about Mesh. This pertains specifically to Mesh that will be worn by an avatar (clothing, jewelry, shoes, etc), not Mesh to be rezzed inworld like furniture or buildings. Here are a few highlights:

1) Mesh weighted clothing will move with the avatar, however, it cannot link anything to it (i.e., a weighted skirt cannot have floaty prims or sculpted waistband attached - they would have to attach to a different attach point). Further, the avatar cannot really modify it in any way because it is sized to a particular "skeleton" - the original Mesh creator's model, not the model shape of the clothing creator or the end customer, so if parts of the avatar show through, there's nothing they can do other than change their shape (meets with a lot of dislike among customers, totally understandable), or, wear an alpha (also meets with some dislike).

2) The creator name will be the name of the Mesh creator, not the avatar creating the final piece UNLESS the mesh file is purchased and then "re-uploaded" by the purchaser (and only then by an avatar with PIOF). So the cost skyrockets (first buying a full perm Mesh, then uploading it to have your name on it). Most sculptors right now sell their maps with no mod permissions - useable to build with inworld, but not saveable to computer. I suppose this could be worked around by buying the file the same way as buying a PSD file and downloading it, then uploading the final product to SL. The costs could potentially be huge, as right now, when a sculpty pack is purchased inworld, usually it includes multiple varieties of the same item (say shirt collars - you get dozens of options so you can switch between them depending on the build).

3) It wasn't clear if non-weighted Mesh that might be used for jewelry could be linked to other prims or sculpties. Assuming it can be, if an avatar does "stretch" a finished product (combination Mesh, sculpt, prim, say a necklace), then because the PE changes, that would potentially break a build if it reaches more than the allowed "linkable" 256 prims

 

If that's all true, then Mesh is not just another building tool like sculpties and prims. It's really pretty different. Not sure now how I would use it in clothing creation since allowing customers to "mod" to fit is so very important, as well, as having the clothing/jewelry/shoe creator name on it rather than the Mesh maker. I also worry about the inflation of prices for end products using Mesh due to the complexity of working with it. It's really not a great time, economy wise, to be increasing prices. Wanted to check in here to see if you and the other Merchants understand this the same way.



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Just another set of added reasons why - as a Landscape Sculpty Map creator - my strategy on how and when I will deal with the future of transitioning/expanding my current SCULPTY MAP PACKS to MESHES is to continue to take a wait & see approach for about 6 months to a year.

For those few Sculpty creators that plan to rush in and start pumping out MESH products to the market - I am thankful for them to have the guts to be critical in being LL's gihnea pigs and suffer the pains / limitations / and very little resulting initial sales rewards for their MESH efforts.  Their sacrifices on creating and pumping Meshes out on the 1st generation SL MESH grid will be used to eventually get the SL Main Grid to the Generation MESH Grid release.

I will enter the market at this time (Gen 2) which I suspect will be about 8 - 12 months from now.  I will leverage all the education that will come out of the Gen 1 suffering and I will also avoid a lot of wasted time and effort.  By that time, the SL Grid market will likely be to a point where customers will seriously consider buying a MESH and not as much a SCULPTY.

I heard the Main Grid will start seeing Mesh on specific private SIMs in the next week.  Since there are no main production SL Viewers that support mesh (LL's own V2 nor Phoenix or others), there is no customer base for any Mesh.  Plus, LL has already warned that for the next month (if not more), all uploaded meshes are at risk to be permanently damaged if the mesh leaves these special sims or if LL decides to update the Mesh formulas on the SIM Servers.

So, I dont even see a marketable SL Grid for Mesh sales until December.  I dont see Generation 2 of MESH on the grid until next summer.

Just my predictions.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Arwen Serpente wrote:

Medhue, I've just read some info from a prefab sculpty/Mesh creator about Mesh. This pertains specifically to Mesh that will be worn by an avatar (clothing, jewelry, shoes, etc), not Mesh to be rezzed inworld like furniture or buildings. Here are a few highlights:

1) Mesh weighted clothing will move with the avatar, however, it cannot link anything to it (i.e., a weighted skirt cannot have floaty prims or sculpted waistband attached - they would have to attach to a different attach point). Further, the avatar cannot really modify it in any way because it is sized to a particular "skeleton" - the original Mesh creator's model, not the model shape of the clothing creator or the end customer, so if parts of the avatar show through, there's nothing they can do other than change their shape (meets with a lot of dislike among customers, totally understandable), or, wear an alpha (also meets with some dislike).

2) The creator name will be the name of the Mesh creator, not the avatar creating the final piece UNLESS the mesh file is purchased and then "re-uploaded" by the purchaser (and only then by an avatar with PIOF). So the cost skyrockets (first buying a full perm Mesh, then uploading it to have your name on it). Most sculptors right now sell their maps with no mod permissions - useable to build with inworld, but not saveable to computer. I suppose this could be worked around by buying the file the same way as buying a PSD file and downloading it, then uploading the final product to SL. The costs could potentially be huge, as right now, when a sculpty pack is purchased inworld, usually it includes multiple varieties of the same item (say shirt collars - you get dozens of options so you can switch between them depending on the build).

3) It wasn't clear if non-weighted Mesh that might be used for jewelry could be linked to other prims or sculpties. Assuming it can be, if an avatar does "stretch" a finished product (combination Mesh, sculpt, prim, say a necklace), then because the PE changes, that would potentially break a build if it reaches more than the allowed "linkable" 256 prims

 

If that's all true, then Mesh is not just another building tool like sculpties and prims. It's really pretty different. Not sure now how I would use it in clothing creation since allowing customers to "mod" to fit is so very important, as well, as having the clothing/jewelry/shoe creator name on it rather than the Mesh maker. I also worry about the inflation of prices for end products using Mesh due to the complexity of working with it. It's really not a great time, economy wise, to be increasing prices. Wanted to check in here to see if you and the other Merchants understand this the same way.



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First let me say again, my rigged mesh knowledge and the end results are limited. I've made some rigged mesh test avatars, and I've made some rigged attachments, like holsters.

1. I don't know. Rigging a mesh is difficult and extremely time consuming. Plus, a creator that wants to make rigged mesh clothing should really have the exact SL model with exact SL rigging to create clothing with. I think some people might have this for Blender, but I've not seen any SL default avatar models for any other program. I had to personally make my own rigged avatar to make my rigged gun holster. This was a major problem, as I did not rig my default model exactly like the default SL model, so nothing matched up right. For me to adjust this, I would have to keep rerigging my default avatar until I get it as exact as possible. This is probably not going to happen, as I just don't have the time to do that. On the good side, I'm a newb at clothing, and I have seen some super talented clothing makers create some crazy awesome mesh clothing that seemed to work perfectly.

2. Creator name is not really an issue for none rigged items, as you can just link your own prim, and you will now be the creator to your customers. Rigged clothing for builder kits, will probably need to get the collada file from the original creator and sign for a license to use the items.

3. PE changing because of size is potentially a showstopper that LL seems to be blowing off. Personally, I think all the restrictions put on Mesh are extremely short sighted. IMHO, it is another case of the coders running the insane assylum, or something like that.

They have basically made mesh so complicated, no person without years of 3d experience is going to have an easy time with it. On the good side tho, mesh is revolutionary in what we can do with it, and how things will eventually look in SL. Yes, this is a somewhat shaky start. Let's hope that the person running the show is a bit smarter than we are, lol.

[Medhue Simoni]

LL does understand that changing things after the release is definitely going to PISS OFF many, many people. Yeah, the cost for uploading will be lower at the start, at least that is what LL said, but this doesn't matter if you upload a lot.

Personally, I don't have time to play games with LL, and I'm hoping there are no major changes after the fact. I've been waiting a very long time, and numerous projects have been put on hold, waiting for mesh. This being the case, I'm going to upload as much as I can, like crazy, as soon as I can. If LL screws up, oh well, I'll pound on my desk, and pull out a bunch of hair. It's OK, I have a full head of hair.

[Arwen Serpente]

Thank you for that reply. There is soooo much I have yet to learn about this new "animal" called Mesh. As time passes, I will read, and learn and experiment, the same way I did when I got started with clothing making. All I can hope when it comes to the "prefab" Mesh market, i.e., creators selling to creators, is that there will be demos because this is very different from our current prims and sculpts. I've rarely been burned when buying sculpts (meaning poor quality), it's happened on occasion, but rarely. Mesh without demo's will be a hard sell (to me at least).