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I have to reply to your last statement. 

1:you state Lindens always gets the blame and not the mummy or daddy, and not their to subside our hobbys ect.

Well mummy and daddy do get our hard earn cash for a service which I and many others have paid for and except a desent

level of service, I sure if you were paying for a service that has been declining you would complain to to so I sorry I disagree

with you on that statement.

2: as for you saying a good enought product" when one has a very good product and does not wish to use marketplace

and advertise it like it was before in the search engine which worked fine, but since this new search has demised to a low

that and am sure would agree " place a word in search like " leather pants" and you penises and other tolly useless infomation and whiles on the subject before when paying for an add you saw what people were paying to be listed in the rankings to know were to buget, thats gone, I wonder if that was a delibrate ploy to make it an auction, one now could pay 300-400 LL's and be nowhere near the top 40+ , well thats no good if no one can find you.  again seems very suspect why thats gone.  again I disgree with 

3:you say  LL's is very open with its users as to any other game, is this a oepn  statement or do you have facts to prove this?

4:Allow 3rd party delvelopers have an input? hmmm was not to long a go a very sucessfull viewer got booted, I know

in broke some rules which from my understanding were corrected and the persons involded got fired or resigned 

aledgedly , but still it got removed, hmmm wonder why ? was it that much of a good viewer?

 

5:you say your store is doing great and no doubt is it and I am happy for you, you must be one of the lucky ones, I really

dont care if my stores are sucessfully or not, if not I close them, what I am saying like others, that before it was a fair playing field as to be able to open a store and sell thats what most of us had 3+ years ago, but pushing marketplace to

the forefront as LL's have, and creating a crapping viewer to so people can find what thier want to buy and it frustrates then into using MP to me seems an unfair playing field there are many who wsih just to rent a shop and sell thier products, with out having to compete with the might of MP, 

I would like to note, that I  not complaining on my behaft but and opened a disscusion about this I really am not that worried if my goods dont not sell, am

sure not going to spend thousands of LL's on add in MP place when I know the chance of getting a hit with in very low.

 

marigold, I make a very income from djing in sl, as I am good at it being one in RL, but am sorry I know what we had

in SL before and it was good, it has lslowly gone wrong and I love for SL to put it right or make a good effort which I sure

they are, I have nothing against SL ,but I would like to see them hear us,and openly let us know they are and if they are

making changes plz consult with the people who been using SL for a long time. they surly are the best people to ask for the future of SL, not a programmer that devolpes ideas and put them into practice with mass consultation from us.

I would therefore would suggest if any major implemtations or inprovement be madeit should be known to all before any are enforcement of them, this way we all see, I dont how the last search engine was placed but it sure has not worked

that could be a good lesson to start with.  

 

again nothing personal to you just my views , and well for it for SL to move forward, I think it a great idea and would love it

to be very popular .like most of us would.

and 

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greek Wingtips wrote:

4:Allow 3rd party delvelopers have an input? hmmm was not to long a go a very sucessfull viewer got booted, I know

in broke some rules which from my understanding were corrected and the persons involded got fired or resigned 

aledgedly , but still it got removed, hmmm wonder why ? was it that much of a good viewer?

 

 

 

Those responsible owned and controlled the server.  The only ones who did not either resign, or get "fired" were the ones responsible for the wrong doing.  

Still wondering why it got removed?

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3 years ago the search sucked lol

it may have been good for businesses that knew how to play it .but for customers trying to find anything..it was crap..

there has always been a market and a lot of us wised up to start shopping xstreet or the market before we went to a store..

why is market so popular..beause we can see what is there before we go there..not get lured by a bunch of bots to a place that has stuff that should be on the freebie shelf..

search is not just for the ones that put up their adds..it's also for the ones using it to spend the money on their stuff..

if i can put up a search and find what i am looking for it's working..if i have to wade through a bunch of junk because they know how to play the game better than a better artisit..then it's not..

i've been using xstreet for my catalog long before the search was changed..because you couldn't find anything on it 3 years ago..

 

 

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Kazimira McConnell wrote:

It's all about the econemy. People dont have as much to spend on donateing to land or as much to spend on land itself. I've seen lots of places die because of that simple fact. Land is to much and even on the marketplace it's hard to keep a shop because magic boxes need to be rezzed somewhere and if you need to move your box location you need to redoo your marketplace shop.

I see this as one of the biggest problems now as well.  Every day I hear of Sims that are closing down.  The Irukandji continent, at its peak, was over 50 sims big!  It is completely gone now.  Several Steamland sims are going or gone.  The San Francisco sims are going down to just 1 or 2 shortly, on and on and on. 

As it is now, owning a full sim is really only for the super rich.  $1,000usd just to BUY the sim and then $250usd in tiers each month??  I would love my own sim and I have great ideas what I would do with it, but there is no chance in Hades that I can afford that kind of discretionary spending. 

What should happen is that LindenLabs should cut the sim purchase cost to $250usd, change the monthly tiers to around $50usd and eliminate the $10L upload fees.  Yes, this is drastic.  If they were to change these prices, more people would buy sims and start paying tiers.  More people owning sims means more income for the Labs.  Without some sort of change to the fee structure, I don't see the sim closings and shop disappearances slowing down and certainly not reversing. 

As far as mesh is concerned;  one has only to read through the Mesh forum to see massive problems with that system.  From the number of prims an item is assigned when its uploaded (Mesh items are ALWAYS more prim heavy than sculpts) to upload fees that appear to START at $151L.  The larger the mesh item, the higher the upload cost.  Some of the beta testers have discovered upload costs as high as $450L!  $450L to upload one item!  Ridiculous!  To recoup some of that cost, you can bet mesh items will be substantially higher than sculpted items.  Looking at sculpted and mesh items side by side, you can see that sculpted items look as good or even better than the mesh items.  So to charge a creator this outlandish upload fee is ludicrous. 

I know some of you are going to slam me with "You don't know what you are talking about!" responses.  But let me ask you this;  If you could buy a full sim for $250 instead of $1,000 and pay $50 per month in tiers, would you?  How many more would buy their own as well? 

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Oh come since when in Rl people out shop via a catalue than going to the shops themselves, there shoud be a level playing field thats what I am saying vendors should have the right to excise their right to open and shop and sell via the shop if they dont want to use the market-place but when the search engine changed with the new viewer  that was almost inpossaible due to seach being what it was and still is, but in hinsight the beta search is avast improvement but little too late.there will be fore and against were to sell but I know for a fact most has been shifted to market place but that not a choice of vendors but a foreable choice if they want to sell they goods,  make it fair level field as to be able to sell either shop with a desent seach engine or market place not  weighted against the other.

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You need a break from SL - that is apparent - then maybe you will appreciate it more.  Everyone goes through lull periods.

I really don't know what it is you are wanting LL to tell you.  They are pretty transparent already when it comes to their intentions, their coding, just about everything, if you know where to look for information.

Regarding Search; it's true a lot of people complain about it, mainly because EVERYONE thinks their product/venue is the best and deserves to be at the top, or up near the top. 

The next Community Tools User Group is scheduled for 21st July - you should go and ask the Linden people in attendance your specific questions.  I attended a few weeks ago, and I have to say I felt much better for getting things off my chest.

More information about the Community Tools User Group sessions can be found here ...

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Community_Tools_User_Group

The transcripts from previous sessions can also be read. I think you will find it interesting and informative too.

 

 

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all i am saying as a customer is this..i'm using what works best for me..if you guys want it to go back to the gamed mess that it was before that so many complained about  then have at it..

 

i didn't see fair when i had to wade through 5 pages of bots that i don't have to wade through now..

a lot of places that would have been burried and would not be seen before are being seen now

when i do use search it works better as a search user trying to find something..thats it's job and what it is meant for..results..not for who can cheat it the best..

in places i have 6 different options to choose from now..i'm glad it's not free and easy to manipulate search like it was in the past..

as i said..the other night it took me 5 minutes to find a good club to go to when i felt like dancing..

i can't remember the last time that happened..

if it got harder for people that have a business on the search..i would be blaming the ones that gammed the crap out of it for years rather than the ones that made it better for the ones that are getting results now..

all those years of complaining and they heard those complaining about it..they got what they asked for..if some regret that they spoke up..then not sure what else to say..complain some more i guess and see how it turns out next change hehehehe

 

 

 

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The official numbers still look good, but who really knows for sure.  I do agree that things aren't what they once were.  A simple stroll through SL will show you that.  Yes, you can still find a nice "club" pretty much exactly like the next club and the one after that but what else is left?

It could just be that people have figured out what works and what doesn't and folks are just following the "forumla" for moderate success just like in RL.  But I definitely feel the same thing that the OP does, a definite waning of enthusaism and interest across the board.

Ask yourself, when was the last time you went exploring, just looking around like we used to?  Do you try to find new places (except when one of your favorites goes out of business)?  How many places do you visit on average per week?  For me, the list is perhaps two or three.  I like most people log on and go to the same spot and just stay there.

Remember the big projects?  Those large amazing creative endeavors?  How many new ones are there?  How many of the great ones are still left?  Are more being made than are disappearing?  I think we all know the answer.

Personally, I used to use SL as a creative outlet a place to build and create and share and express myself and all of those things that sounded so appealing back then.  Now, I come here to hang out with the few friends I have left and perhaps tinker with some small builds and simple scripted toys but I certainly do not put forth the same "investment" of my time and energy than I used to.  

Why should we when the rug keeps getting pulled from under our feet?  A change in the way scripts are run or a tweak of the physics simulator will render whatever you create diminished or completely useless.  Land policies will arbitrarily change wiping someone out.  Maybe LL will set themselves up in direct competition with you in order to capitalize on a market that you built.  Perhaps someone will file a bogus AR on you and whoever is reviewing them that day has a brain fart or leaps to a conclusion and you get suspended or banned trapping no small ammount of your cash inworld.  Yes, things aren't assured in RL either, laws may change and economies shift there too, but the gravitational constant does not change on a whim. 

Now a person or two has always gotten burned out every now and again.  But this time it seems that it is more than just a few.  This place is a result of the total creative effort of it's residents.  I for one think that we are all getting tired.  If all one wants to do is come here and socialize and go to a "dance club" then they might not see what we are talking about nor care about it if they do.  But those of us who really liked this place and used to marvel at what could be done here may feel differently.

I think a tipping point has been reached and the nature of SL is shifting from what it once was to a rather tepid, sterile, and bland new existance.  How is that going to work out for SL, LL and the rest of us remains to be seen.  But personally, I can tell you that I can only muster up the emotional investment to be mildly curious and am only paying attention out of a detached sense of amusement than any real concern anymore.

In short, enough of us have become disenfranchised from a world that we helped create to lock us into what is most likely a irreversible cycle of disinterest.  This can't be fxed with a new feature.  Even mesh, when and if it comes won't change this.  It wasn't some sparkley nifty new feature that built this place into what it was.  It was the collective enthusiasm of an engaged customer base.  Once that is diminished past a certain critical point, it's over.  Have we reached that point?  I don't know.  

The sad part is that I no longer really care.  

 

 

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Very well said Cabbage and I echo your sentiments. After almost 5 years I find myself spending less and less time in world. I barely ever get out to explore and most of the great friends I made back in the halcyon days have long since left. It's beyond simple burnout as others suggest, it's something far deeper. The world has lost it's wonder, it's sense of excitement for what was coming around the next corner. There are no great new (resident-built) projects, no new concepts, no feeling of awe for what's possible.

Most of the time I spend in world now I'm sad and longing for "the old days" that I know will never return. Now I truly understand the meaning of the word malaise.

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seriously? you are going to put that much into a one time in a long time search i made to go out dancing ? hehehe

just so you know..you  have me mistaken with someone that wasn't there for the ride hehehe

i was involved heavily in one of those big projects that still is around since 2006..though it's not as big as it used to be..but it's just as popular as it always was..still in the same place it has always been in the search also..

i've been in some that have also fell off because of changes..

i assure you that dance clubbing is not all i do..it is just once  in a while that i feel like going and this last time it took me close to 5 minutes to find a spot..

and no it's not like the next one or the next one after..this one had people in it having a fun time.. not like the bot riddled ones that some seem to be forgetting that covered the lands and riddled the search..

that had a big impact on a lot of businesses in sl..not just clubs..i'm sure scripted bots made for some of that waste land space on the grid we have now..

lots of changes happened over time..people have been hounding  and hounding for search changes because traffic was so easily manipulated..to compete you had to have bots if you wanted to be seen..that or a good established following..

so finally traffic manipulation is being taken pretty much out of the equasion of having an impact and now search is the problem again because it was changed to what a lot hounded for..

the fact is people have been pretty bummed since before the OS sim scandal or whatever people chose to call it...i chose to call it that OS thing..

it's been that gambling is killing us..OS is killing us..tier decrease is killing us..tier increase is killing us... adult changes is killing us..v2 is killing us.. teen merger is killing us...display namesare killing us.. search is killing us ..market is killing us..ect.

myself i stopped digging in in 2008 early 2009..i went from being dug into another big project  to having been told to tear it all down because half the sims were OS sims and that we were giving all the sims back and folding up..a years worth of terraforming and sculpting and building and creating textures trying to design things not seen in sl yet for just one project..all down the drain in one IM..going from deep deep concentration to FFFT!! gone in the blink of an eye no warning...nobody got to see it but me and a couple of others invited to have a look around  in phases..

that hurt for sure..but it was a good lesson..things can and will change in a heart beat..

SL changes constantly..it's part of SL and always has been and always will be until it is no more..

i'm here because it's still a great place to relax and to escape and create and  meet a lot of really good people..

if i find myself getting bitter  because of it or the changes made ..i won't be wasting my time in it..i'll be involved in something else..

the time i do have nowdays is not time i want to spend wasting it on something that i don't enjoy anymore..

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Deej Kasshiki wrote:

Very well said Cabbage and I echo your sentiments. After almost 5 years I find myself spending less and less time in world. I barely ever get out to explore and most of the great friends I made back in the halcyon days have long since left. It's beyond simple burnout as others suggest, it's something far deeper. The world has lost it's wonder, it's sense of excitement for what was coming around the next corner. There are no great new (resident-built) projects, no new concepts, no feeling of awe for what's possible.

Most of the time I spend in world now I'm sad and longing for "the old days" that I know will never return. Now I truly understand the meaning of the word malaise.

This isn't unusual, to yearn not actually for a place, but for a place in time.  I have a bunch of friends in real life who all worked together at the same Butlins (holiday camp) in 1992. We reminisce sometimes about "the good old days".  I also have a bunch of friends I worked with at the same Butlins in 1998-2000.  The place had changed beyond all recognition in those few years I'd been away, and I found myself yearning for the venues, and some of the friendships from 1992-93.  It was easy to think the holiday camp was going to close; the atmosphere was very different, the clientele also seemed different.  But, even now, Butlins lives on, although it has evolved all the time.

Second Life is so much like this. Evolving, clientele changing, and yes, some people become disillusioned and alienated, just like with Butlins, and then new types of people come along and become hooked.

I hope you get your mojo back Deej.  I admit I lose mine from time to time, but it's back with a vengeance currently, so I really hope the sky isn't about to fall in.

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Mayalily wrote:

Yes they could and should do a whole lot better for their customers, especially women.  I don't think LL has a clue on HOW females shop.  They definitely could use a lot of female input to make SL better.  Women tend to be the largest consumers in the world in general whether RL or SL, so female input is definitely needed (exclamation point).  I mean just take no wish bar area on Marketplace... I have lost so many items I would have liked because I couldn't store them and now cannot find them.  When creating a business, you need to take your largest demographic consumers into consideration. 

Your badge came out great sweetie! Congrats! :matte-motes-whistle:

 

As for the current topic, I just wish we could party like it was 2007 again :matte-motes-crying:

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Deej Kasshiki wrote:

Very well said Cabbage and I echo your sentiments. After almost 5 years I find myself spending less and less time in world. I barely ever get out to explore and most of the great friends I made back in the halcyon days have long since left. It's beyond simple burnout as others suggest, it's something far deeper. The world has lost it's wonder, it's sense of excitement for what was coming around the next corner. There are no great new (resident-built) projects, no new concepts, no feeling of awe for what's possible.

Most of the time I spend in world now I'm sad and longing for "the old days" that I know will never return. Now I truly understand the meaning of the word malaise.

This is as perfect a summation of how I have felt as any I could have and have written. And despite whomever would say it's from burnout and a break would help fix it, I just got back from a break that lasted for the better part of a year.

I still spend 10 times as much time in the forums as I do in-world. And sadly enough, when I go in-world now, I end up going to one or two familiar places, or simply staying at home. Now also with my new tendency to shop in the online marketplace, my penchant for wandering for new shops has diminished greatly too.

I have about three close friends still that were made back in the beginning of '07 when I got here. Ironically enough, they are the original three that I made when I got here. Everyone else is gone, and my friends list was up in the 80's and more just with the people I hung out with and saw, or at least talked to every week. Acquaintences made it even more extensive. Now, I can't imagine the uphill climb meeting and wanting to get to know that many people would be.

I miss GOL3 (as it was then) and Festival Island so so so much. The first two places I landmarked and spent time at. Packed with excited, energetic people, great music, wonder, and magic. There truly was something exciting around every corner, as you say. It was the sort of place that became even more outrageously ideal with every comparison with RL - to where in RL I'd be floating off in my head to places in SL like Ethereal Teal, and could almost feel my pupils contract because of the bright particles. It made RL feel like such a droll, uninspired place at times.

I had so many plans for things to learn and do. Businesses to start. My friends and I all danced and had a hoochie crew that would all apply at the same clubs, dance as a big group, and take over the stages. So much fun. dating, laughing, being goofy...

Sigh. Sorry for the book. It's just hard not to wax poetic and sad about what SL used to be and no longer is. I have many many culprits that I blame for this, not the least of which is SL additions that were supposed to be the next greatest thing, and the community changes that resulted, but that's a whole separate rant, believe me.

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Marigold Devin wrote:

 

Regarding Search; it's true a lot of people complain about it, mainly because EVERYONE thinks their product/venue is the best and deserves to be at the top, or up near the top. 


But... but... BUT -mine- IS the best and should be at the top of search for every category.

Its all you wankers that keep gaming things and mess'n me up.

Stop it.

nao!

 

Oh, and search today is a lot better than it used to be. ;)

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

 

as i said..the other night it took me 5 minutes to find a good club to go to when i felt like dancing..


It only takes me longer now because I'm getting pickier in my curmudgeoness. Lately I've been going to clubs and turning off Sl sound and playing my own music instead... because I'm just too darn picky for my own good... sigh...

But at least today's the first time in a long time that I've ended up in a place that I suspected had a bot on the staff.

 

 

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A lot of things changed for the merchants and you had to keep hip to it everyday if you didn't want to lose your shirt.  And you had to do a ton of adjusting as well.

Can't say that I was super happy about most of it, but wanted to hang in there.

Happened in Real Life to a ton of people too.  Little bit scarier there!

Did you watch the news at all the last few years?

Marketing is a bit different than it used to be.  You gotta get hip.

Great way to express your views is to make a fancy blog and beeatch all day long.  Make sure you've got a circle of friends that get off on that, and they'll get you a zillion hits to that blog. 

That'll keep ya busy, and you won't have time to log in and worry about anything inworld.

 

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