Jump to content

Why Does Linden Lab Hate Boobies?


You are about to reply to a thread that has been inactive for 3283 days.

Please take a moment to consider if this thread is worth bumping.

Recommended Posts

Seriously. 

I am aware of the many varied opinions on the subject of breast physics.  Some people love the idea, some hate it, some think that those of us who like it are silly, others feel it again objectifies women.  A lot of opinions out there.  Some are turning it on.  Some are leaving it off.  But overall I feel like the current implementation is turning Second Life into a giant cartoon.

When breast physics were implemented in the now defunct Emerald, I turned the function on.  It was a very nice enhancement to Second Life.  Overall, breast motion was subtle.  Enough to  make it interesting but not so much as to make it look stupid.

Last night dancing at a club it looked like their where two choices in use by the Ladies there.  First, no physics enable.  Second choice, well, as much motion as I was seeing I was waiting for their breasts to detach from  their bodies and  go flying off into the crowd.  One girl I thought looked like her breasts were being used for dribbling practice on a basketball court.  Up and down, up and down, up and down, up and down.  Another girl, I thought maybe her partner was a pugilist, her breasts moving like a punching bag Mohamed Ali was practicing on.

Bottom line to me is that Linden Lab has again ruined a perfectly beautiful thing with the way they have implemented breast physics.  Supporting fact is look how many threads on how to use breasts  there are, not just in the SL forums but many other SL related forums and blogs.  Basically speaking, I wouldn't blame the majority of Ladies if they chose to leave Breast Physics off when it appears that their available choices are between no motion at all and a cartoon joke.

Maybe somebody at the Lab is laughing, but I'm not.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's two issues:

1. Some people don't spend enough time getting the settings right to have relatively realistic movements. It's pretty easy to get relatively realistic breast movement with a little bit of experimentation with the sliders (although LL have perhaps provided too many slider options meaning that people who just turn it on and don't experiment with the sliders will likely have unrealistic movements).

2. Our old friend lag. If a sim is lagging, physics can lag too causing breasts to appear to go crazy!

It's not really anything to do with implementation as such though, although LL could do with making it easier to understand the sliders.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, i agree with Suella.  I don't think it's the breast physics themselves so much as where you happen to be wearing them.   I've seen them look okay in locations where it's not too busy.   Where there's a lot of lag, you tend to get the effect of a sock filled with jelly swinging around.

Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, the thread title.... I am fairly certain that since Lindens are normal people, and the majority are male I think... I am pretty sure that nobody at Linden Lab hates "boobies" :matte-motes-big-grin-squint:

True, if dancing nude you would see this level of bouncing on a woman with large breasts (if she was dancing very energetically), but reality is most of the time breasts are constrained by a bra, or at least some level of constraint is provided by clothing.

Since in Second Life you may be in any level of dress, depending on sim maturity level.... and a woman may be any size... it is the fault of these people for using unrealistic, inappropriate settings. Linden Lab must provide the full level of possible realistic movements, it is up to us to use the settings in a way that isn't pure silliness.

Unfortunately though to most people it seems irresistible to max out all these settings, not understanding that subtle movements are more appropriate (and much more attractive) in most cases :matte-motes-impatient:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I do understand that opinions will vary. 

I also understand that first of all a person has to be happy with them self.  If you are happy with your breasts looking like a pair of grapefruits swaying in a hurricane, I say all the more power to you.

If you have a partner you are seeking to please and that is what they prefer, I say again, all the more power to you.

I also know understand that the settings can be a pain in the back. 

My suggestion is that you get a second or third opinion if you are not sure how you are looking.

Mainly, what I am saying is that LL has again overcomplicated and made difficult what should have been a very simple thing and in so doing has shown disdain for the most beautiful part of a woman's body next to her mind.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You can see from a number of threads on the subject that it is very difficult to get good settings on the sliders for this.

They easily get over-sensitive or simply shut down. A very small band in the settings will look good, and that's "will look good across various states of dress." If you want it to look good clothed the band is even more narrow, and likewise look good nude, even more narrow.

- And hard to find.

 

Its akin to how arms on females only look properly human at a slider value of 100 or higher...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Really LL needs to stop making good settings so difficult for the average user.  Breast physics are just one example. The sliders we have for adjusting breast physics should be considered "for advanced users", with regular users able to select easily from a bunch of clearly labeled easily selectable presets.

This can be applied to other aspects of SL, like body shapes. Provide a selection of pre-made shapes selectable right from the appearance editor (Super Hero, High Elf, Dwarven Warrior, Athletic, Overweight, et cetera). They should also improve SL's default settings in general. Ever seen SL with an actually well made day cycle? It looks so much better you could post screenshots and people wouldn't even realize it's SL.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My experience, my body parts look like jiggling jello.  Now I know there are adjusters to these things, but I've never seen one moving correctly, not yet anyhow?  I also won't be using them because if the bouncing is wrong, they will bounce your shape right off of you, which is what happened to me.  I've also seen some people shout out "be careful not to fall in love with me, I've got my avatar physics on".  So I went close to the avatar to see if I could see anything moving, and I could not.  It was like a zero movement, so I couldn't understand what they were so excited for?  Their body parts weren't moving, not in my viewer screen.

ETA:  If you turn into a white oval and were wearing avatar physics, the most likely reason you are an egg is because the avatar physics bounced your shape right off of your avatar, and without a shape you will be an egg.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the ability for female avatars to create boob bounce is great. In particular, I think it's good that the boob owner, rather than the observer, now controls the settings. 

So far as some may choose ridiculous settings, then I will add them (along with those who have gibberish usernames and stupid display names) to my list of people to ignore. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if men think 'good' boob bounce is different from a woman.  I wonder how many women using these avatar physics things have actually danced in front of a mirror to see how breasts actually move in RL?  I have danced 3 times in front of a mirror and have rather large breasts and they don't move like milk jiggling in a jug.  The movement comes from the shoulders down through the pectoral muscles.  When we dance we are using are muscles and that is what is moving.  Breast mass is a lot firmer than I think most men think.  And I was braless when checking this out; it's the pec muscles moving and I can see my shoulders causing some movement but it's subtle.  Also, did a shimmy check just now again.  If I hold all my muscles still, I can do the shimmy.  If your other muscles are moving, I don't think a woman can do the shimmy.  You have to hold your other muscles completely tight to achieve this. 

Here's a dance video of a guy dancing, you can see the movement is coming from the shoulder area to the pecs.  I couldn't find a vid on a girl dancing yet. 



ETA:  Belly dance video.  A belly dancer can only make the breast area move if the other muscles are tight, otherwise they don't move much.  You have to isolate that area of the body muscles alone in order to achieve a breast shimmy.

http://www.5min.com/Video/Belly-Dance---The-Shimmy-1876


Link to post
Share on other sites

I for one enjoy the new physics. For my avatar, I found a free physics layer in marketplace that was already made for the breasts and butt to jiggle. I've been trying to tweek the butt part since it just was jiggling too much.

I dont really mind at all when I see the breast physics maxed out on an avatar, its not something that I really think should be understaded and look more realistic because this is SL, if everyone was to be realistic then that would take alot of the imagination away from avatars.

I did notice something funny today. A girl had physics on and she didnt have breasts or butt turned on, just her stomach which was flopping around, she must have had it set to MAX. It made me giggle hehe

Link to post
Share on other sites


Mayalily wrote:

 I have danced 3 times in front of a mirror and have rather large breasts and they don't move like milk jiggling in a jug.  

If we were to stand next to one another in RL and dance the results of our breast movement probably wouldn't be exactly the same. Yes, both our breasts would have to obey the laws of physics, but the actual movement would depend on a number of factors such as size, mass, the exact movement we were making, what we were wearing (or not!) etc.

While the laws of physics apply to all of us in RL, becuase we are all slightly different, the results of those laws on our bodies will be slightly different. It's the same in SL. We all don't have exactly the same shape, height, mass etc. This is where the problem comes in with breast physics in SL. Because we are all different, we need to tailor the breast physics to match our breast size, mass, etc. 

In a sense, it's a good thing that LL have provided so many slider options, because it allows people to tailor the physics to match their body as much as possible. However, it doing so it makes it somewhat complicated. They could have simply had some very basic options - either physics is on or off. However, that still wouldn't be realistic for all people. It would be realistic for the avatar shape, size, mass etc that they tested with, but we all won't be the same as that test avatar! It's a no win situation really.

There are other fators that complicate the laws of physics in SL though. For example, certain actions in SL are unrealistic and are actions that we don't do in RL. For example, when you stop suddenly from a teleport or when you stop suddenly from an animation, SL breast physics will cause the breast to jiggle like crazy! Technically speaking, that excess jiggle is 'realistic' (depending on how the person has set their sliders) because our breasts would do something similar if we made such sudden, jerky movements in RL. We don't though. We don't suddenly go from dancing to an absolute sudden stop in RL like we do in SL when we stop an annimation.

Those are basically the main problems with SL breast physics and it's nothing that can easily be addressed. The breast physics will (relatively) mirror the laws of physics in the real world BUT those laws don't fully apply to everything we do in SL and they also apply differently depending on the setup of our avatar.

In essence, the only real way to get perfect breast movement in SL every time is to have a specific, tailored physics layer for each and every outift, scenario and action we perform in SL! Breast physics in SL will never be perfect because of these factors, unfortunately. You can get it close by carefully tweeking the settings and perhaps having a few different physics layers for different outfits and scenarios, but most people don't have the time or inclination to do this. They might set up the physics sliders once and get something they think looks right, but it will only look right for the outfit \ action they are doing at that particular time (and there is, of course, the other issue in that some people deliberately make their avatars and physics unrealistic. I might not always like the way an avatar looks or acts, but that's the wonder of SL i suppose, it allows us all to be what we want to be, no matter how realistic or not that happens to be).

Here endeth my attempt at a physics lesson! :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Isolation is necessary for shimmies, but not holding other muscles tight.  Holding muscles tight will give a vibration which is different to a shimmy.

This is why it is possible to change arm positions etc while doing a shoulder shimmy and to layer hip shimmies with hip circles, eights, etc.  Horizontal movements are usually not layered with a vibration because most are not possible due to the necessary tension other muscles must be held in, whereas horizontal movements are very commonly layered with shimmies.

Link to post
Share on other sites

lol :smileyvery-happy:  

After watching this belly dance video of a rather large breasted women (which I'll post a link at the end), I can still see tho that it is the shoulders that make us bounce and also muscle isolation.  I also just did a lovely test in front of my rl bf doing a belly dance shimmy where I could jiggle while isolating, and then did just a regular dance and my breasts hardly moved at all.  He enjoyed watching me do a test for avatar physics tho.  However, with the regular dance, he said no you're breasts don't hardly move at all.

I have belly danced in rl and I know the movement comes from the shoulders more than anything (you can especially see that in the youtube video in my last post.  She is moving her shoulders back and forth to achieve that "shimmy". 

This is a vid of a large breasted belly dancer.  I don't see her breasts moving a great deal except by using shoulder movements, which we really don't do when we are just dancing regularly.  It sure would hurt if my boobs bounced around in RL as much as SL thinks they should.  lol, that would be painful.  Anyhow, I was studying this to see just how realistic I could get it, but then the avatar physics caused my shape to detach, so I moved on to other things right now.  But animation is interesting to me, nonetheless. 



ETA:  Also, the bum muscles are tight, at least on me.  My bum doesn't bounce around much at all, so I don't get the bum bouncing part?  That seems way off to me.  Bums are full of strong muscle mass? 

Link to post
Share on other sites


Mayalily wrote:

This is a vid of a large breasted belly dancer.  I don't see her breasts moving a great deal except by using shoulder movements, which we really don't do when we are just dancing regularly.  



Yep, given the size and mass of her breasts, and the apparent well supported bra she is wearing, her breast movements are as expected.

However, were she to be topless, her breasts would move differently. Were she to be wearing a less supported bra, her breast would move differently. Were she to have bigger (or smaller) breasts they would move differently.

Which is one of the points I'm trying to make. I could pretty much guarantee that, with playing around with the sliders, I could create breast movement in SL that mirrored that dancer's movement. If i were to set my avatar to a similar size to her, and wear a similar bra it would look relatively realistic. Were I to change my size or wear something different though, it probably wouldn't.

I'd also need to be doing a dance that mirrored that dance for it to be realistic. If I were jumping up and down like crazy though, it probably wouldn't look realistic. By the same token, if she were to be jumping up and down very quickly (like some of the jerky movements we have in SL) her breasts would move a lot more.


Mayalily wrote:

  It sure would hurt if my boobs bounced around in RL as much as SL thinks they should. 

What you mean is "It sure would hurt if my boobs bounced around in RL as much as they do in certain scenarios in SL depending on how i have my sliders set" :) Which i agree with entirely! If i had my sliders set for relatively realistic movement when walking along normally, but the suddenly jumped on or off an animation giving an unrealistic movement, my boobs would jiggle like crazy. If they did that in RL it would hurt like crazy for sure! Thats a result of the unrealistic sudden movements in SL though which, thankfully, we don't do in RL:)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying SL physics is perfect, because it isn't. Boobs will do some crazy things in SL when all these factors like lag, avatar size, physics sliders, jerky actions come into play. I think it's probably about the best they can do though given these constraints.


Mayalily wrote:

 Anyhow, I was studying this to see just how realistic I could get it, but then the avatar physics caused my shape to detach, so I moved on to other things right now.  But animation is interesting to me, nonetheless. 

 

That's very odd! It shouldn't even be possible to not have a shape attached. The physics layers are a completely separate layer to the shape. If that keeps happening for you, it might be a good idea to raise a bug report JIRA. It's possbile SL was just being buggy at the time and your shape got 'ruthed'  

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm enjoying reading this as it's kind of funny to discuss and especially to do the tests.  Your signif other will love it! 

Yes, they are wearing a bra top, exactly how much they would bounce braless?... I don't know, I'll have to do some more tests, but will wait to my signif other comes home from work.  hehehe

When I'm doing just regular dancing, I am using mostly my legs and hips, so I don't see much breast movement.  I see hip movement. 

Anyhow, I'm still working on my chim and haven't gotten that done yet, so avatar physics is a way off for me.

As to whether I got ruthed or not is a mystery, but I don't think so.  I was wearing the avatar physics when I lost my shape, and that's the only time that happened to me.  It wasn't that I was ruthed nor needed a character test, it was merely that my shape detached and if your shape does detach it will turn you into an egg/oval, and that's what happened to me just that one time.  Why, I don't exactly know?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm at a complete loss as to where I heard this, but I remember recently hearing that Phoenix users and V2 user see things differently when it comes to physics. I don't remember the conversation very well, but it seems one viewer will see a very exaggerated motion while the one who's using a different viewer (the one wearing the physics if I remember correctly) will see only slight movement, as it was meant to be. That could have something to do with this as well. In which case, this may become less of an issue as more and more people switch to V2 code base.

...Dres

Link to post
Share on other sites

Despite the provocative subject line, I think a more accurate phrasing is: "Why do some Residents love their breastesses so much that — OMGMYEYES!!!!" coupled with the less-sensationalist "What can we do to enlighten the masses about avatar physics?" For the record, I'm a Linden and I celebrate breasts. (Now I know this is going to get quoted. :P)

As thoughtfully explained though, a lot of this comes down to education, such as this Knowledge Base article. Providing sensible presets and distributing them widely would empower a lot of people to realize that mmm, they can be used, shall I say, tastefully? Otherwise some peeps might just get the wrong impression. I'm a big fan of strong starting points. While I don't know of an LL initiative to do this at the moment, you can certainly propogate your preferred bouncology through the Marketplace, and like any product trend, some dominant themes will emerge.

Despite that education, some people are going to go for crazy effects you may not agree with (whether this is due to ignorance, intention, lulz, or another curious reason), just like how a lot of muscular male avs have hyperbolically broad shoulders, or how we can make big booties that would humiliate J.Lo's posterior endowments. Fact: I was at a club in SL specifically catering to backside lovers. Avatar Sir Mix-A-Lot would've been in heaven.

And Perrie, THIS is legend, I'm so sorry that I HAD to LOLOLOL at the visual image. Ali may have floated like a butterfly, but what about virtual silicone?

Another girl, I thought maybe her partner was a pugilist, her breasts moving like a punching bag Mohamed Ali was practicing on.

Link to post
Share on other sites


Torley Linden wrote:

 For the record, I'm a Linden and I celebrate breasts. (Now I know this is going to get quoted.
:P
)

 

sampdb352ca69b6625ca.jpg

 

Just be greatful I don't work for News of the World, or i'd have hacked your phone by now! (Hopefully you are aware of that across the pond!)

It's just been announced that the News of the World is to close though. Now we need to go after the rest of Murdoch's evil empire! (with apologies for interrupting the fun with a little bit of politics!) :smileytongue:

Link to post
Share on other sites


Torley Linden wrote:

Despite the provocative subject line, I think a more accurate phrasing is: "Why do some Residents love their breastesses so much that — OMGMYEYES!!!!" coupled with the less-sensationalist "What can we do to enlighten the masses about avatar physics?" For the record, I'm a Linden and I celebrate breasts. (Now I know this is going to get quoted.
:P
)

As thoughtfully explained though, a lot of this comes down to education, such as
. Providing sensible presets and distributing them widely would empower a lot of people to realize that
mmm
, they can be used, shall I say,
tastefully?
 Otherwise some peeps might just get the wrong impression. I'm a big fan of strong starting points. While I don't know of an LL initiative to do this at the moment, you can certainly propogate your preferred bouncology through the Marketplace, and like any product trend, some dominant themes will emerge.

Despite that education, some people are going to go for crazy effects you may not agree with (whether this is due to ignorance, intention, lulz, or another curious reason), just like how a lot of muscular male avs have hyperbolically broad shoulders, or how we can make big booties that would humiliate J.Lo's posterior endowments.
Fact:
I was at a club in SL specifically catering to backside lovers. Avatar Sir Mix-A-Lot would've been in heaven.

And Perrie, THIS is legend, I'm so sorry that I HAD to LOLOLOL at the visual image. Ali may have floated like a butterfly, but what about virtual silicone?
Another girl, I thought maybe her partner was a pugilist, her breasts moving like a punching bag Mohamed Ali was practicing on.


TY Torley for your response.  I haven't myself played with the settings, having no desire to develop moobs in SL.  I don't know what the default setting is but my opinion is that it should start at subtle and then allow the individual increase as desired.  Addition is always easier than subtraction.

But while we are on the subject of jigglies, I give everyone these two offerings:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
You are about to reply to a thread that has been inactive for 3283 days.

Please take a moment to consider if this thread is worth bumping.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...