Attracting gamers to Second Life - what it would take.

[animats]

Second Life needs a new source of new users. One that's reasonably mainstream, and has enough money to buy the necessary hardware. That's gamers. Steam has hit 34 million concurrent players, most of whom have machines good enough to run SL with high graphics. That's a big customer pool.

Second Life isn't a game, but it contains games. Let's compare two genres - cyberpunk and crime. What would SL need to get up to the level of good games in those genres?

Dark Future (SL) vs. Cyberpunk 2077.

"Come for the neon, stay for the intrigue". Dark Future is in Experia region. It's a cyberpunk region, and a well-built one. It tends to have 20 to 50 avatars in it. It's one region, vertically split into three levels. It has quests, rewards, a money system, combat, guilds, companies, and factions.

It looks pretty good. It's usually dark with much neon. Too dark. It really needs finished PBR, with many lights and good tone-mapping. Finishing PBR is on LL's road map, but right now, we're in a transition state that doesn't look that good. Cyberpunk 2077 shines in the rendering area. SL can get there, if LL follows through. A big if.

Most of the buildings are shells. There's too much crammed into one region to allow for fully furnished interiors.

This is a combat region. The Dark Future people can't quite decide whether they are going to use weapons or throw dice. They support both. The Combat 2.0 project ought to help.

The usual curse of SL, people standing around doing nothing, applies.

Dark Future has a large number of NPCs. Most are just filler; they stand and do nothing. Some will, if clicked on, will provide info that advances gameplay. A few move, but not in a useful way.

Dark Future has rentals. A few people live there.

Crack Den (SL) vs. GTA V.

Crack Den has a great back story. Like GTA V, it's a high-crime area. It's multiple regions, and you can drive around. It's a bit under-populated at the moment. There really aren't enough people to staff the gangs, the cops, and the university. This is a big problem with roleplay regions - without enough people, or at least enough NPCs, they're too sparsely populated for roleplay to work. Crack Den's machima show confrontations between large gangs and large groups of cops, but that doesn't actually happen much, if at all.

It looks pretty good. It's a Southern town, with normal day and night. Buildings are realistic. Most have full interiors. It's a good build. Doesn't really need exotic rendering. Many residential rentals.

This is a combat region, with rules on who can carry a gun, and where.

People tend to hang out in groups and talk, rather than standing around alone.

Crack Den has been experimenting with AI NPCs. There's one at the entrance, and there's been an AI cheerleader. Their NPCs speak in emotes, with "/me". The NPCs don't move and have no awareness of their surroundings.

Driving around is allowed but rare. The motorcycle gangs don't ride much. There are police cars, but they aren't driven much.

Notes

So what would it take to make areas like that attractive to the people who play the corresponding games?

Look

SL is getting there on look. If LL doesn't drop the ball on PBR, it's going to get there.

Then there's retrofitting old content. Automated AI-type tools for generating normals exist, and they work for many building surfaces. It would be useful if you could take any texture you have it in inventory, run it through some viewer-supported tool, and derive a normal map back.

The LOD generator needs a rework, so that you never generate a lowest LOD with holes in it. Those look stupid. It's a hard problem, but solutions exist and are widely deployed in the big game engines.

As with textures, some way to retrofit old content with new lower LOD meshes would be a big win.

LOD transitions ought to be fade-in fade-out. GTA V (2013) does that, and you have to look hard to notice LOD changes. SL's hard transitions trigger the eye's motion sensing, which is a serious distraction in shooting games.

Liveliness

The curse of SL is people standing around doing nothing. Game controller support may help, as it will make movement more fluid. Once you can not just walk and run, but duck, dodge, and shoot easily, things should liven up a bit. Basic emotions should be expressable through the game controller, even if they're just AO mode changes.

Game-type regions need a few semi-intelligent NPCs to move things along. It should be possible to play solo or with a small group and not be totally bored. The NPCs might become less active and fade into the background when the number of users is large, so as not to interfere with roleplay. This might be a way out of SL's under-population problem - game regions that can operate on a range from solo play to zerg rush.

Maybe have NPC cops that check for people standing around in public doing nothing for too long, and hassle them for loitering. Fortnite's system will actually kick people out for just standing around. Gamers are used to being pushed into action.

Immersion breaks

The major immersion breaks - clothes not loading, region crossing fails. - have to be fixed. Those things just don't happen in successful commercial games any more. The time for excuses is over. I'd suggest that the LL people near San Francisco go to the Game Developers Conference in March 2025. They need to be more immersed in game dev culture and technology to know what's expected by the industry.

Communication

More talking, less typing. Typing is too slow for gamer action. Once game controllers come in, people won't have their hands on the keyboard. Probably need text to speech and speech to text for the disabled. Both those functions are now quite good and available in open source code.

Conclusion

This is hard, but do-able incrementally. It opens up SL to a huge customer pool of potential customers. It's about half done already. Finish the job and make it Just Work. Then put some energy behind a good game region as a demo. I'd suggest tearing out one of the useless regions at WelcomeHub (the region-sized movie theater is never used) and making it an intro combat/roleplay region, brought up to modern gameplay standards.

[WeFlossDaily]

If there was a button to politely dislike, that would be my reaction to this idea.

I like the idea of more games in SL, but I probably disagree with OP how such games should be implemented on pretty much every single point onward.

 

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Gamers are already in Second Life. *waves hello* A friend of mine used to chat with me while playing Satisfactory in the background. Lots of SLers are on Steam and Discord. We outchea.

We're also not a monolith and a lot of us are well over GTA V (I personally never played it as I wore myself out on that franchise by the time San Andreas rolled around) and never touched Cyberpunk 2077 (I personally think that game entirely missed the genre by a mile, but that's just me being extraordinarily picky). Give me Circuit's Edge, which did it better in 1990 IMO, and we can talk.

Cyberpunk and crime are two themes I guess SL could work on, but they're pretty niche overall. There are tons of others of interest - fantasy and medieval themes are huge, gritty post-apoc, historical, space, detective, cats (seriously), gothic, steampunk, Western, retro/nostalgia, underwater, noir - I can think of a million games in these categories alone.

On the genre side - SL could handle life simulation, RPG (somewhat), roguelikes/lites (maybe), deckbuilder games, HOGs, visual novels, platforming, stealth, strategy, business sims, sports, fighting games, survival and survival horror, walking sims, cooking/farming, parkour, looter shooters, etc.

I dunno, I'm just throwing stuff out there. I game daily and I'd roll my eyes out of boredom at a Cyberpunk or GTA roleplay sim (hangout/photography sims, sure, but I wouldn't want actual gameplay or roleplay), and that's why I never visit them. Off-platform, NoPixel is still around I guess. I rarely ever hear anyone mention Cyberpunk these days unless it gets a patch or something. I'll occasionally hear some hype around Project Orion, but that's a far way off, I'm sure. I'm not sure why someone would leave those two games to come here and play SL versions of those two games, though. You'll get far better performance and a far better experience just playing the OGs with all their polish and flavor.

 

27 minutes ago, animats said:

Maybe have NPC cops that check for people standing around in public doing nothing for too long, and hassle them for loitering. Fortnite's system will actually kick people out for just standing around. Gamers are used to being pushed into action.

No, we are not. This is annoying. I'd rage quit so fast.

Again, we are not a monolith. I don't need constant action. I'm not used to being pushed into it whatsover. I play cozy games and simulators and MMOs and deckbuilders and CRPGs and turn-based strategy and puzzle games and platformers and visual novels and a ton of other things. Never FPS. Never non-stop action. Only a small percentage of what I do even involves combat or PvP, so standing around is totally acceptable. Auto-kick dodging exists (you should see the creative ways people find to hit the Space key while AFK).

[Flea Yatsenko]

You need to compare the game play to those games to what you have in SL, not the graphics. The graphics do need help and once PBR is fixed (for the most part, some people will get left behind unfortunately), you still have a lot of problems.

CP2077 and GTA both have vehicles that are fun to drive. SL vehicles aren't. It's not creators' fault, there are good ones and bad ones, but they don't have the tools they need. People freak bout about CP2077 vehicle bugs but compared to crossing a sim vehicles in CP2077 are amazing, let alone comparing to GTA.

Shooting in SL isn't fun either, AFAIK there are no hit boxes, so a head shot is the same as a toe shot. I could be mistaken but i couldn't find anything regarding hit boxes to detect where a bullet hit an avatar.

Moving doesn't feel good either. Your key presses have horrible response times (don't start moving until after you press to move and then keep moving when you let go). This is absolutely obnoxious behavior for any type of game that requires any sort of semi-precise movement. Imagine you are playing a PvP FPS in SL, you let go of the move forward key so you don't go around a corner, but the game lags and you go around the corner then get shot. Not fun, in fact it's very frustrating.

All of the above suffer from additional lag because every command/keypress must be sent to the simulator, processed, then broadcast to everyone in the region. No online games work like this anymore. It's incredibly out dated and it makes the BP that PBR replaced look super radical and high tech.

There's not enough mouse sensitivity options in the settings. Gamers take that stuff very seriously now. Some want to aim by moving their whole arm across a huge mousepad three times bigger than your keyboard and some just want to softly move their wrist to go across the screen.

There's not enough keybinds. You can't even do something like have 1-9 select between weapons like every FPS/TPS out there.

Most gamers want to make a game. If SL had the proper tools to let people create more in depth games in SL, they could actually have something cool over Unreal and Unity in that you can have an avatar in the game world working on the game in real time with other people. SL is amazing for getting started in making a game, the world is there, the tools to create characters, avatar components, environments, etc are everywhere and you can buy almost anything you want if you can't make it.

People only sit around in SL and look beautiful because SL works very well as a social platform and it's extremely good for making avatars.

 

[AmeliaJ08]

SL would need FPS game style netcode for a start. It has some of course but... well everyone has experienced it and should know, it's not good enough by a long shot and merely just works... since 2003.

It has always been a little confusing why there's combat features, a physics engine etc when the server cannot even really allow for anything (avatars, objects) to actually move in a way that would make these features useful. It doesn't cope with any sort of latency - even the relatively low latency we nearly all have these days - and for the most part anything beyond walking is beyond what the engine and server can handle, even then it often struggles.

As mentioned above avatars would require some sort of definable hit box and physics would just need a complete overhaul IMO. Vehicle physics in particular needs to be a focus, need something far more powerful than what can be achieved with existing LSL and Havok.

As far as creating games - since you want the users to do this - supporting new scripting languages seems obvious and LL apparently agree with Lua coming soon I guess. I would also argue that to really game-ify SL you a way of creating simple games, game modes etc in an editor that minimises the need for scripting knowledge. Something visual, ideally.

I think LL have missed a trick that should have been noticed in Roblox here. SL has a great opportunity to be a Roblox style user-made game platform for adults, there isn't the same restriction on content in SL of course. I'm sure they must have seen the success of GTAV Online and stuff like FiveM that really prove adults love this kind of stuff. It could very well be the next lease of life the platform needs if done right, the building blocks are there but of course there's a whole lot of work that would need to be done to make it even close to a competitor to something like FiveM. The biggest advantage it has is content friendliness and an existing skilled userbase who could actually make the things fun game modes need.

 

Edited November 14 by AmeliaJ08

[Coffee Pancake]

2 hours ago, animats said:

Conclusion

This is hard, but do-able incrementally. It opens up SL to a huge customer pool of potential customers. It's about half done already. Finish the job and make it Just Work. Then put some energy behind a good game region as a demo. I'd suggest tearing out one of the useless regions at WelcomeHub (the region-sized movie theater is never used) and making it an intro combat/roleplay region, brought up to modern gameplay standards.

Anyone who has or does play games will immediately notice that SL is terrible for recreating those activities.

Just because we can make something that looks like game content,  doesn't mean this place can feel like a game or come remotely close to recreating that experience, and trying to square that circle with the architecture we have is jarring. This isn't just ticking boxes, this is requires massive systemic change from the foundations up.

Case in point - We can't hold a candle to the driving experience in GTA 3 and it's not because of region border crossings. Even if those were perfect, flawless, unremarkable grid lines on the map, we still can't compete.

 

I have no problem with "gamers" joining SL, I think it would be awesome if we could present a gaming quality experience in Second Life and should that be accomplished, everything else we do that isn't playing a game would be improved for free.

 

We desperately need revamped social tooling.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

There are soooo many good, popular games out there that are not FPS, and that don't involve shooting up stuff.

Retooling SL massively so that we can replicated Call of Duty just doesn't make sense; it's not feasible. But there are other things -- Ayashe has noted some -- that could work.

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There are soooo many good, popular games out there that are not FPS, and that don't involve shooting up stuff.

Retooling SL massively so that we can replicated Call of Duty just doesn't make sense; it's not feasible. But there are other things -- Ayashe has noted some -- that could work.

Don't get hung up on the mechanics of particular titles or genres of games, or judgement calls about those who might play games deemed "violent".

There is also a lot of overlap between what a solid pew pew shooter needs and every other type of gaming. A shooter is probably an ideal initial goal. It needs smooth, consistent, predictable movement, very low latency, streamlined content handling, the works. Retooling SL to do the things needed to make a pew pew shooter, would also dramatically improve driving, flying, sailing, walking about your home, interacting with things and each other and everything else we do. It would be a night and day improvement.

The point is we can only get there by retooling, and we should absolutely be doing that work, however this is more than just dressing SL up to look the part and right now, basic communications are a greater pressing need.

We aren't losing users to games (we're not even in that contest), we're losing them to discord.

[Arielle Popstar]

11 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We desperately need revamped social tooling.

We need some social period. The tooling works but there are few who even take advantage of what there is in a way that it attracts more. 

When one has a platform where every public word said has the potential to be reported, people will tend to shut up and only private message those who can handle what is said.

[Love Zhaoying]

Isn't Second Life a game?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Don't get hung up on the mechanics of particular titles or genres of games, or judgement calls about those who might play games deemed "violent".

I really am not. Keeping "violent" content out of SL is a lost battle in any case.

I'm thinking about what is feasible, mechanically speaking. Talk of "hit boxes" and such is very much to the point.

11 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

There is also a lot of overlap between what a solid pew pew shooter needs and every other type of gaming.

Understood and agreed. But let's focus on the bits that "overlap," rather than worrying about the stuff that is pretty much exclusive to one kind of game.

12 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The point is we can only get there by retooling, and we should absolutely be doing that work, however this is more than just dressing SL up to look the part and right now, basic communications are a greater pressing need.

We aren't losing users to games (we're not even in that contest), we're losing them to discord.

I don't disagree, but "social games" are also a thing

[AmeliaJ08]

Showerthoughts:

You'd need a way to exclude avatars who degrade the experience. You could optimize a game mode region in a sensible way to try and get the best performance but any avatar could waltz into your region dripping with enough high poly mesh to ensure at least some performance impact on anyone they came into view of.

Maybe pre-loading? some special mode where everyone that is to enter a region is pre-loaded in some sort of staging/lobby process and the obvious limitations this would place, no modifying appearance or adding random attachments (that haven't already been loaded) etc while in a game mode. I guess something like the restriction options RLV already has could work.

 

 

Edited November 14 by AmeliaJ08

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Showerthoughts:

You'd need a way to exclude avatars who degrade the experience. You could optimize a game mode region in a sensible way to try and get the best performance but any avatar could waltz into your region dripping with enough high poly mesh to ensure at least some performance impact on anyone they came into view of.

Maybe pre-loading? some special mode where everyone that is to enter a region is pre-loaded in some sort of staging process and the obvious limitations this would place, no modifying appearance or adding random attachments (that haven't already been loaded) etc while in a game mode. I guess something like the restriction options RLV already has could work.

 

The Zombie games I have played in OS did require me to divest any scripts I might have been wearing so they wouldn't add to the scripting load and I suppose to prevent any sort of cheat like a speed hud. No limitations though on anything worn and not sure if it would affect much when limited to just a few players at a time.

[AmeliaJ08]

More showerthoughts:

You'd need short term region rental or cheaper land. Any game mode that required the space of say a full region - which doesn't seem unreasonable - would be a very expensive thing to run and only really possible if you can somehow monetize it.

If you could create a game mode and have it stored with the option of quickly spinning up a region for a fixed fee and fixed time to play a game then maybe it might be more feasible.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Everything Flea and the others said is very true, too. So, let's say you really do want us to play GTA V and Cyberpunk 2077 in Second Life for some reason. Ok. Give us a massive UI overhaul, mouse and keyboard responsiveness, broad accessibility options, an entirely overhauled camera with on-foot and vehicle modes, a new lighting system, difficulty modes, gear/cyberware/armor/new clothing/loot, a graphical inventory system, a new wardrobe system, a skill tree system, driving/vehicle overhauls, realistic vehicle damage, vehicle repair, eliminate sim crossings and give us a seamless open world, we'll need ragdoll physics, dynamic NPCs, an entirely new combat system (2.0 won't cut it), aim assist...

Still with me?

Ray tracing and DLSS, a film grain filter for funsies, far better communication tools, radios linked up to vehicles and fully-licensed music across numerous genres, new sound effects, a whole slew of new animations and interactions, improved mini maps with icons and routes, a full map with icons and routes, working mobile phones, flying vehicles like helicopters that can keep up with fast-paced car chases, a criminal/wanted system, might as well go ahead and give us those AI-driven corrupt police officer NPCs that can accept bribes and pursue players halfway across the world if they witness us doing crime that CDPR failed to put in, a street cred system (how we dress influences how NPCs react), body modification (no, not just slapping on something in our inventories - give us Ripperdocs), realistic crashes and explosions, a system for car jacking and pulling people out of vehicles, I want the WASTED text to come up when I get got, scantily-clad NPCs that drop cash when you run over them (not that I know ANYTHING about this, oh no), a fully fleshed-out main story, interesting side quests, cutscenes, achievements, Keanu (hellurrrrr!) and Idris Elba (heyyyyyy!)...

Orrrr, I could just take myself over to Epic where my free copy of GTA V resides, download that for the first time ever, and play it without waiting for all that to happen. 😄

Edited November 15 by Ayashe Ninetails
Added stuffs

[BillFletcher]

I don't feel like this is a subject I know much about. But it seems to me that what built SL was the ability of people to come here and easily create. Now creating has become more difficult making it impossible for some, who have ideas of things to create here, to actually do that. SL doesn't need a new target audience, they need to get back to the first one, and make it possible for people to create without being computer experts.

[Solar Legion]

Gamers are already here for the most part. Not all are here for the 'game' parts.

Gaemrz playing Summons of responsibility 69: The Murdering ... are the same sort that caused most of our Griefer issues in the past.

And yes, there is a difference between the two groups.

[Love Zhaoying]

So, not everyone is here for "adult stuff"? I didn't think so!

[Midnoot]

This all sounds nice, but I can't even imagine it, since SL has been the way it has been for so long. SL for gamers has mostly been about recreating the vibe of those games, the scenery and the aesthetic of their avatars, but not actually PLAYING those games, since SL is so disgustingly un-game like that it hurts. I like all of what you said, except the FPS part. Someone mentioned there being many good/popular games that aren't  FPS games and I lean towards those games far more than FPS. And fps players ARE indeed typically the low attention span, scum of the earth that comes here to troll.... But it  does seem to be the number one genre in the world, so if population increase is what you want, it'd definitely work. SL is pretty close to GTA in some areas, excluding all the immersion breaking sim crossing/LOD crumpling/ LAG/ limited areas to rez vehicles/ constant no-object entry parcels/ ban lines/ 0 second security orbs/ angry land owners who hate everyone except their seggs partner that they brought back to ****.

[Starberry Passion]

I agree that there are a lot of people that just stand around, but you have to ask yourself why do most people stand around or be at their own sims? People like to talk crap when I say this, but it's more so that people don't like being told what to do and how to look. People, also, cannot mind their own business. You have a lot of rules, that vary, for what you can look like and cannot look like.

Then you have cliques, you cannot do anything about these because they're circle of friends, which are normal for groups to be formed in humans

Then you have biases that can work for or against another, forcing that bias can lead to even more hatred or struggle, if not presented correctly, pushing people away.

Then you don't have a diversity of thought, in several cases. If you have a different opinion, some people will just attack you, there needs to be a diversity of thought in some way

And some people just take second life way too seriously, forgetting that it isn't real life.

I don't know how turning it into more of a "Gaming thing will work" especially if it has "pvp" in it. If you turn it into cyberpunk 2077 or an FPS, several people I can guarantee you would not like forced pvp, so that will drive many people away.. However

I think Second life does need to update itself, however, but in a way that will satisfy all. If it stays how it is, it'll die. Also, I think it needs to magnify what it presents. "A world of creativity and imagination, where you can do anything you want, be anything you want." at the same time. There are too many restrictions upon itself, especially for creators who want to create and for the customer that want to get creative. For example, 38 objects to wear isn't actually enough, but I understand that it will lag some people, making it harder to get really creative for some people. Avatars have limitations and details are limited. Physics are limited, hair is limited, you can't even have flowy mesh hair. Skirts, dresses, aren't even able to behave like actual clothing..

If Second Life can be optimized better and be able to up its appeal inworld, by looks and feel, I think it'll have a bigger audience, when people see that they can really create something that is unique to them.

[Flea Yatsenko]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There are soooo many good, popular games out there that are not FPS, and that don't involve shooting up stuff.

Retooling SL massively so that we can replicated Call of Duty just doesn't make sense; it's not feasible. But there are other things -- Ayashe has noted some -- that could work.

I'm just using FPS/TPS as an example because they are very popular. Would you want to play a game in SL with the controls and physics it has that was like Mario or Sonic? Can you think of any genre of game that would be fun to play in SL? Maybe something that's not real time like a card simulator or a board game but that's about it. Maybe someone could think of more but between the bad movement, bad aiming, and bad input options I don't think there's ever any time someone wants to create something to do in SL and says "this would be awesome!" and instead ends up asking, "can we make this work in SL?"

[WeFlossDaily]

Survival horror.

[animats]

7 hours ago, WeFlossDaily said:

If there was a button to politely dislike, that would be my reaction to this idea.

I like the idea of more games in SL, but I probably disagree with OP how such games should be implemented on pretty much every single point onward.

Go on...

[Toothless Draegonne]

Experiences need a lot more control than they already do over a region before "computer games in SL" can properly become a thing. I've harped on enough to various people about my own personal ideas about a "game mode" setting for estates that gives the landowner godlike control over the occupants, but that's ultimately what you need to stop one or two people with lagbomb avatars and pathological scripts from coming in and absolutely ruining anything you try to do on the scale or popularity of cp2077 or GTA. With some thought put into the build, you're almost there as far as geing a general MMO game engine.

Being able to stop someone from wearing their "every single diamond in my million-diamond necklace is pure geometry because I don't into normal maps", or some random griffer from turning the place into a smoking hole in the ocean because lols, basically being able to curate everything to the finest detail while still allowing people the choice to leave if they don't like it, is really the biggest obstacle.

[Qie Niangao]

12 hours ago, animats said:

Communication

More talking, less typing. Typing is too slow for gamer action. Once game controllers come in, people won't have their hands on the keyboard. 

Yeah. It's why I couldn't care less whether such gaming increases in Second Life. It's of as much interest to me as the "skilled gaming" casinos, which is to say: none at all.

If for some reason a bunch of folks insist on coming to Second Life to play these games (why?), y'all have fun, but I'm skeptical it will ever play a significant role in SL's revenue nor long term user count no matter how much is invested in improving playability. I certainly wouldn't spend any time scripting for it (so I'm only interested in Combat 2.0 tangents such as maybe llSetAgentRot).

And yet, yeah, something new—or new again—is needed. So this is interesting:

9 hours ago, BillFletcher said:

I don't feel like this is a subject I know much about. But it seems to me that what built SL was the ability of people to come here and easily create. Now creating has become more difficult making it impossible for some, who have ideas of things to create here, to actually do that. SL doesn't need a new target audience, they need to get back to the first one, and make it possible for people to create without being computer experts.

If LL can't make in-world building tools (and I wouldn't even try now, with AI changing the whole meaning of 3D "building") maybe the best "games" creators could produce would be experiences for others to create. Back in the age of Prims, competitive timed build-offs probably held more interest than all the current "games" combined; with Mesh, of course, modeling is grunt work to watch (all those miserably tedious YouTube videos), so maybe we need new realms of recreational creativity. Audio? No idea what that could be, but I remember some amazing audio installations that reacted to the presence and motion of visitors. Same, too, with interactive sculpture. Is that still a thing at LEA, maybe? Could any such direction extend to a "game" that enables recreational creative expression, now that we won back "Your World, Your Imagination" after all these years?