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Vivienne Daguerre

Linking Mixed Tool Objects

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Here is some more silliness that people are not going to understand when mesh hits the main grid; if you link mixed tool objects (prims, sculpts and meshes) the prim count will not be the sum of the parts, and can explode to insane numbers. We have heard Runitai's explanations and it does not make a lot of sense to us. It won't make any sense at all to people who were never in beta, and they will just see it this way; The Lindens decided they don't want you to link mesh with sculpts and prims.

People will work around it by not linking. They can pick it up as a coalesced object and package it for sale that way, or use rez faux, rez foo, builder's buddy or some similar tool to make it easier for customers to place. With buildings we already do that, because you cannot link doors and shutters that move with the rest of the building (unless you are using some specific prim animation tools). It is not a big leap for people to not link mesh. There will be no change in what is out in the world. People will just be peeved that the Lindens have made it less convenient for them.

Below is a townhouse that I have 7 copies of on my sim as free housing for role play residents. On the main grid each townhouse is 149 prims. I brought it into the test grid and replaced the shell with a mesh, which dropped it down to below 90 prims at first. I was pleased with that. With the new accounting system, it is back to 133 prims, which makes it not worth the effort. However, if I unlink the mesh part, the townhouse is only 86 prims. I will simply leave them unlinked in world. What does this accomplish for Runitai? How does this reduce anything except convenience?

Townhouses.jpg

One townhouse is linked except for moving parts (doors and shutters) and consists of mixed tools--mesh, sculpt and prim. It comes in at 133 prims in the current accounting system.

The other townhouse is made of all the same mesh, sculpt and prim parts, but the mesh is not linked. It comes in at 86 prims.

People will not change what they are setting out, just how they are doing it. I will use the new townhouse when mesh hits the main grid, simply leaving the mesh part unlinked.

I cannot see what will be accomplished by the inability to link mixed tools without prim costs exploding other than annoying us.

These townhouses can be seen on Mesh Sandbox 29.

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In a way, this breaks legacy content. Consider all those who have invested considerable time and effort into making sculpted building parts--arches, pillars, windows, corner brick, crenallated castle parts, etc. This penalization for linking them into mesh buildings by making them count according to their actual resource cost "breaks" them as content.

If you make sculpties count as anything but one prim, linked or not, legacy content is broken. The same thing goes for prims. If ever a prim counts as more than one prim, linked or not, then legacy content is broken.

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I wouldn't worry about it. If the customers reject it then rodvik can make the changes needed to overhaul mesh and do it right.

Let LL roll it out and then let the customers judge the work of the mesh devs.

So far it looks like it will work great for aircraft, spaceships, dirigibles, vehicles, boats, boots, shoes, and wearable accessories. Given a person can use stuff off turbosquid, etc., for personal use then there won't be a lot of need for mesh maker stores in SL as we can just grab the stuff and upload it for personal non commercial use.

Oh and the upload cost? Well you can upload it tiny and pay a tiny cost and then size it up in world. Will cost more prims but won't cost actual money when you resize it other than using more of your prims. But there are plenty of rez spots on mainland for vehicles and it won't cost a dime to use them.

Not sure LL thought everything all the way through but that is what happens when you don't talk to the actual clever users during development.

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Those SL creators are a hideously crafty bunch and it is hard to anticipate what deviltry they will conjure up to get around limits.

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"Those SL creators are a hideously crafty bunch and it is hard to anticipate what deviltry they will conjure up to get around limits."


But y'know - we shouldn't have to.

We shouldn't have to look for some hack, that gets us around lousy implimentation.

With the roll-out only weeks away, things are not looking good for the mesh revolution.

After seeing how prim cost has risen on the beta grid, I'm actually finding myself more excited by the prospect of up-to-64 meter prims on the main grid, than I am by mesh objects being introduced there - because it looks like when mesh finally is implimented, it'll be so cripped by cost as to be worthless. 

Numbers that don't add up. Prim costs that skyrocket if you attach prims to each other. The current setup seems like some passive-agressive attempt to punish users for daring to use it. 

I'm almost starting to wonder if an executive decision hasn't been made to maintain the status quo at all cost. 

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You are right. We should not have to find work arounds. All of these things make Second Life harder to learn for newcomers. It will just be yet another thing that new people will have to learn that won't make much sense. This is not making Second Life easier or more accessible to anyone.

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Quoting Ann O'Toole:  "Not sure LL thought everything all the way through but that is what happens when you don't talk to the actual clever users during development."

Actually Ann, they are talking to clever users before releasing mesh. That is what the beta testing is all about, and I would at least hope I and others here are a little clever at least! I feel that they are listening and discussing our input. They may not always be able to tell us everything going on at Linden Lab or all of the whys and wherefores behind their decisions due to corporate policy and restrictions, but I am sure they do listen to us. I also think they are as open as they can be with us at the mesh meetings and talk to us as frankly and openly as they can.

I think they do consider their actions carefully. They are not idiots or fools bumbling about. To understand the technical problems and coding to make mesh work at all, I think they would have to be pretty bright and on the ball.

We may not always understand their reasoning, but I am confident that there is sound reasoning behind their decisions, even if I do not like a particular decision.

The only reason I bother posting my concerns is because I know the Lindens are reading this forum, paying attention and listening, and I post with the hope of being heard and perhaps even having an impact.

Linden Lab is staffed by human beings, and therefore is imperfect. But all in all, I think they do pretty well.

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I have been on the sidelines all along waiting to see what happens.

Here is my current observation: ALL of the people I knew who originally were cheerleading for mesh now openly state LL is making something that will be a total failure.

Take it any way you like. Results are what counts.

If the former mesh cheerleaders were being listened to then we would not be having this convo.

BTW Corporations do not care about humans.



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Are these former mesh supporters whom you claim are not being listened to here and talking? They can't be heard if they are not saying anything. No-one here is a mind reader.

Corporations as large machines are uncaring, but the successful ones do listen and try to meet the needs and wants of their customers. They would not stay in business long if they did not. Linden Lab is very profitable and successful, so I assume they are doing that well enough.

The people in the corporations forge bonds and do care. They spend 8 hours a day at work, or more, and they do get invested and they do care. I used to work for federal government, and you know all the bad things said about that. I cared.

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If LL wants to know what that feedback is then LL will have to go to non LL forums where people are expressing opinions without risk of retaliation.

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Ann, if they tried to read all the non-SL forums, then all their time would be spent doing that and they would not get much work done on mesh.

I have spoken pretty frankly and not all my comments have been exactly cheering. Some have been quite critical. I have not been retaliated against in any way.

I read those other forums from time to time, but not all the time. Anonymity on the net causes some people to behave very badly, in ways that they would not normally if their identity were known and they were accountable for their words and actions. Some of the criticisms in these other places are abusive with name calling and outrageous comments being made which make little sense. If you believed everything said there, you would think that Linden Lab was this huge, evil corporation who existed only to lure in the unsuspecting and make them unhappy. It might make for a good Austin Power sequel starring Rod Humble as Dr. Evil, but I don't think it bears any resemblence to reality.

If I were to give advice to the Lindens, it would be to NOT read these other non-SL forums. They need to be able to focus on the job and get the work done to bring mesh to the main grid. If they were to read these forums, they would probably just come away feeling down. They are human. The slanders, jibes, insults, and accusations take a toll. That would affect their general well being and ability to do their job in a negative way.

Once upon a time, back in early 2004 when I first came to SL, the Lindens were very visible in the world and very accessible. I can remember many times when people would run into a problem with griefers, ghosted prims and such that they would simply search in world on the name "Linden" and get a list of the Lindens online. They would then scroll through the list and choose one to IM. The Linden or in some cases Lindens would teleport in, talk to you, and deal with the problem. Sometimes you would just bump into one or two and they would spend some time chatting with you. I kid you not. This used to happen.

As Second Life grew and numbers increased, they were unable to keep up with demand in this way. The badly behaving minority (at least I hope it is a minority) also took their toll upon the Lindens. If you had to face every day raves and rants such as, "You are all idiots. You don't know what you are doing. You suck. You don't care. You are malicious and evil." it might take a toll on you too and make your day a little less bright.

Ann, please tell your friends that there is a place they can say what they want to say and they will be heard. Please encourage them to do so in an adult way without accusations, insults, name calling and general tantrum tactics. They may not get an answer or the answer they want, but they will be heard.

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I'm not sure if Ann considers me a cheerleader.  I don't consider myself that.  I think of myself as a reporter of mesh status, a helper when I can, and a tester of the software.  Whether I will build with mesh myself depends on how the final version turns out, including costs.

If the Lab's goal is to add a new building tool, my opinion is Mesh will suceed at that.  Mesh uploads and display have mostly worked the last 6 months, and although creation has it's quirks, several 3D programs are able to create compatible outputs.

If, on the other hand, the goal is to improve the looks and reduce the lag within Second Life, Mesh will not suceed given the current state.  Terrain, landscaping, and buildings are discouraged from using mesh objects by the cost formula.  So the general look of SL will not change much.  Meanwhile, avatars will be able to load up on complex mesh attachments, so the avatar-induced lag from current complex attachments will not go down.

I don't make a recommendation to other people to use or not use mesh objects.  I leave that up their creative interests and parcel prim budget.  But I do expect people to continue to behave in SL the way they have in the past.  That includes wanting their avatars to look good, and to care about parcel prim count.  So I base my expectations on that behavior.

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