Bad PBR...Bad

[SandorWren]

We have all been talking about PBR issues, and how bad it can look. But we really haven't been posting pics of the bad parts (or maybe I have missed the pics). Lets post some of what actually DOES look bad, so maybe we can help each other fix them. 

[SandorWren]

I am starting with these. @Cinnamon Mistwoodwas talking about one of her homes, and how she could make a probe match the slopes of her house. SO... I went to see today how that would look. I'm a group member, so I rezzed a prim, and made it a probe. It wasn't possible to make it match the angles. I COULD have added more probes, but the angles still wouldn't match. SO. This IS BAD!!!

 

Edited August 31 by SandorWren

[Scylla Rhiadra]

45 minutes ago, SandorWren said:

I am starting with these. @Cinnamon Mistwoodwas talking about one of her homes, and how she could make a probe match the slopes of her house. SO... I went to see today how that would look. I'm a group member, so I rezzed a prim, and made it a probe. It wasn't possible to make it match the angles. I COULD have added more probes, but the angles still wouldn't match. SO. This IS BAD!!!

 

Yeah, unfortunately limiting probes to cubes and spheres makes this more difficult than it need be.

You could just cover the entire structure with a single one? And make it fit as best you can?

[Kristy Aurelia]

Here's a reflection probe guide https://docs.google.com/document/d/18ut5mR_S9sAYDwWvFHNpRqrJ31y2hpqVSZHd8sbeua4

This scenario is definitely one of the most tricky ones due to limited probe shapes, but, see "Dealing with Tricky areas" -> "Example 3" in the guide for a general idea on how to deal with situations like this.

Edited August 31 by Kristy Aurelia

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Kristy Aurelia said:

Here's a reflection probe guide https://docs.google.com/document/d/18ut5mR_S9sAYDwWvFHNpRqrJ31y2hpqVSZHd8sbeua4

This scenario is definitely one of the most tricky ones due to limited probe shapes, but, see "Dealing with Tricky areas" -> "Example 3" in the guide for a general idea on how to deal with situations like this.

This is very useful! Is it something you produced, Kristy?

[Kristy Aurelia]

43 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is very useful! Is it something you produced, Kristy?

Yes. And I've already shared it here as well.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Kristy Aurelia said:

Yes. And I've already shared it here as well.

Thank you so much! I'll be sharing this around!

[Orwar]

   This is a black jumpsuit in an 'open air' environment without any probe (CalWL):

 

   With a probe, still outdoors:

   And with a probe, indoors:

   If it was just an intensity issue I could have lived with it, but turning it blue .. Not so much.

[Crexon]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah, unfortunately limiting probes to cubes and spheres makes this more difficult than it need be.

You could just cover the entire structure with a single one? And make it fit as best you can?

because rendering anything beyond cubes and spheres becomes EXPONENTIALLY more expensive to performance. This why game engines like UE/Unity and such stick to only box and spheres.

https://dev.epicgames.com/documentation/en-us/unreal-engine/reflections-captures-in-unreal-engine

[AmeliaJ08]

Is there a need for the probe to be perfectly shaped in this case? I know it's the ideal but if there's nothing outside in that area just make it a big cuboid shape that extends beyond the roof of the house.

 

Edited August 31 by AmeliaJ08

[Kristy Aurelia]

9 minutes ago, Orwar said:

but turning it blue

go somewhere where the sky is not blue...

The reason it is so blue without a manual probe is because automatic one has a 360 degree view of the sky and reflects it from all directions. When you place a manual one, it starts reflecting the platform you're on, so the sky is only reflected from above. And obviously indoors with a probe, sky is not visible.

If you make a room with all walls blue/red/green and full bright and place a probe, you'll see just as bright blue/red/green reflection of the bright walls as you do of the sky outdoors.

Edit: obviously full bright walls are dumb thing to have outside testing, however, if you have bright billboards or neon lights or other stuff like that, and you start seeing real reflections of real things in the scene, that's where PBR starts to shine.

Edited August 31 by Kristy Aurelia

[Crexon]

5 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   This is a black jumpsuit in an 'open air' environment without any probe (CalWL):

 

   With a probe, still outdoors:

   And with a probe, indoors:

   If it was just an intensity issue I could have lived with it, but turning it blue .. Not so much.

This is because CalWL is terrible, always has as it goes against what should happen in the real world with how lighting works specially to how it MAX BLAST ambient light and color far beyond normal values.

Anytime you find your self asking if this "thing" looks as it should like a dress or other object switch to the new Midday(not legacy) environment from the World menu. This is the reference environment that all content should be made against and is a good sanity check to see if what you see is right or not. 

I've seen some free "PBR CalWL" replacements but I havent been impress by any of them.

 

Heres a few EEPs ive found to be well made for PBR without destroying the values for PBR content while offering different options for people beyond just "midday (not legacy)"
 

*free* Studio SABERHAGEN
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/PBR-EEP-Collection-Windlights-DayNight-Cycle-Midday-Night/25626640

*free* Artsy
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Artsy/171/145/2515

*in world free demo* Specter Skies
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/237689

*free demos* DHS
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/en-US/stores/62225

Battlescars
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/en-US/stores/180758

[Crexon]

6 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Is there a need for the probe to be perfectly shaped in this case? I know it's the ideal but if there's nothing outside in that area just make it a big cuboid shape that extends beyond the roof of the house.

 

I recommend checking out Kristy's reflection probe doc she linked above. It covers how to handle more trick areas such as a house with a tall roof line. 

[Orwar]

   See, sometimes complaining can be productive. I've tried to 'fix' CalWL, I've tried messing around with all the sliders and colours and somehow I never got rid of the blue. I've grabbed a few PBR environments here and there and they had the same issue - but, that Saberhagen one .. Actually works. Now I just need to figure out how. Thanks @Crexon!

   .. Of course the shine is still too intense without a manual probe, but I suspect that's more on the PBR materials in the clothes. 

[Crexon]

6 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   See, sometimes complaining can be productive. I've tried to 'fix' CalWL, I've tried messing around with all the sliders and colours and somehow I never got rid of the blue. I've grabbed a few PBR environments here and there and they had the same issue - but, that Saberhagen one .. Actually works. Now I just need to figure out how. Thanks @Crexon!

   .. Of course the shine is still too intense without a manual probe, but I suspect that's more on the PBR materials in the clothes. 

Specially PBR more then BP(Blinn-phong) take in more influence from the environment light and color. The biggest being the Ambient which should be close to black or a shade of black to grey, and Blue Horizon set to dark grey. Blue Haze can be a shade of blue or what ever color you want your sky to be.

[Crexon]

10 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   See, sometimes complaining can be productive. I've tried to 'fix' CalWL, I've tried messing around with all the sliders and colours and somehow I never got rid of the blue. I've grabbed a few PBR environments here and there and they had the same issue - but, that Saberhagen one .. Actually works. Now I just need to figure out how. Thanks @Crexon!

   .. Of course the shine is still too intense without a manual probe, but I suspect that's more on the PBR materials in the clothes. 

and for shine if it has mod rights you might be able to tone it down a bit depending how the material was created. If you go to Edit Selection on the build window it will bring up the Editing Material window and look for Metallic Factor and Roughness Factor. Metallic is how conductive it is. Since fabric and in this case latex is near 0, this will likly me 0, if not lower this to 0. Roughness is how rough the material is with 0 being smooth to 1 being rough. If this is already 1 then this is as rough as you can make it without access to the original material file outside of SL. If it's 0 you can raise it to 1 to increase its roughness. 
 

If you do change settings in the edit material window, its also recommend to then do the Save to Inventory option, then reapply that new material to the texture swatch. This video from Zanibar of the Alchemy viewer team talks about those overrides and why they can be bad to leave as is.

 

[Charlotte Bartlett]

7 hours ago, SandorWren said:

I am starting with these. @Cinnamon Mistwoodwas talking about one of her homes, and how she could make a probe match the slopes of her house. SO... I went to see today how that would look. I'm a group member, so I rezzed a prim, and made it a probe. It wasn't possible to make it match the angles. I COULD have added more probes, but the angles still wouldn't match. SO. This IS BAD!!!

 

1. You aren’t aligning the probes correctly to coat the interior.  You may want to utilize the PBR help thread for more tips.

2. Your EEP looks off.  Use one better positioned for PBR.  Us house sellers include or sell ranges so you can start to learn how to optimize your own.

3.  Sometimes part of the bad is user education and knowledge and PBR has a steep curve with workarounds (as always) in SL. 

Edited August 31 by Charlotte Bartlett

[SandorWren]

4 hours ago, Orwar said:

   This is a black jumpsuit in an 'open air' environment without any probe (CalWL):

 

   With a probe, still outdoors:

   And with a probe, indoors:

   If it was just an intensity issue I could have lived with it, but turning it blue .. Not so much.

PBR isn't turning it blue. It's the environment that is. The probe indoors is going beyond the structure, and reflecting the EEP.

[Orwar]

2 minutes ago, SandorWren said:

The probe indoors is going beyond the structure, and reflecting the EEP.

   No.

[SandorWren]

1 hour ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

1. You aren’t aligning the probes correctly to coat the interior.  You may want to utilize the PBR help thread for more tips.

2. Your EEP looks off.  Use one better positioned for PBR.  Us house sellers include or sell ranges so you can start to learn how to optimize your own.

3.  Sometimes part of the bad is user education and knowledge and PBR has a steep curve with workarounds (as always) in SL. 

I was actually trying to make it look as bad as possible to start this thread. Now it's learning time!!! Thanks!!!

[SandorWren]

7 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   No.

Then that IS an issue. Hopefully someone can help us fix things like that, or suggest workarounds.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

7 hours ago, SandorWren said:

I was actually trying to make it look as bad as possible to start this thread. Now it's learning time!!! Thanks!!!

Not really following your objective and what outcome you was looking for.  But learning side do try and get onto the help thread or read some of the others - there are some really good tips if you want to genuinely get started. Or you may fall quickly into - no thank you!
 

[SandorWren]

On 8/31/2024 at 6:30 PM, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Not really following your objective and what outcome you was looking for.  But learning side do try and get onto the help thread or read some of the others - there are some really good tips if you want to genuinely get started. Or you may fall quickly into - no thank you!
 

My objective is and was to see what others are seeing when PBR isn't working right as they see it (AND to see the limitations). Is what someone else considers bad something that the rest of us don't see as bad? I look at @Orwar's pics. The first one I see as bad. The second one I see as a natural . RL, we DO get blue reflections from the sky when we are outside. The third one I don't see any blue at all. HE considers them bad. I only consider the first one bad. How much of what people see as "bad" is simply a reaction to a change in how SL looks, and not actually "bad"?  How much of the reactions are purely subjective?

Edited September 2 by SandorWren

[Tayln Osbourne]

4 hours ago, SandorWren said:

My objective is and was to see what others are seeing when PBR isn't working right as they see it (AND to see the limitations). Is what someone else considers bad something that the rest of us don't see as bad? I look at @Orwar's pics. The first one I see as bad. The second one I see as a natural . RL, we DO get blue reflections from the sky when we are outside. The third one I don't see any blue at all. HE considers them bad. I only consider the first one bad. How much of what people see as "bad" is simply a reaction to a change in how SL looks, and not actually "bad"?  How much of the reactions are purely subjective?

My solution to seeing if it's correct is trying to find real life examples.

If this is too risqué, I can yeet it. This was about the least risqué thing I could find on Google/Bing.

[SandorWren]

27 minutes ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

My solution to seeing if it's correct is trying to find real life examples.

If this is too risqué, I can yeet it. This was about the least risqué thing I could find on Google/Bing.

LOL, i don't think you have to worry about being too risqué with ME!!! That's a fun pic BTW!!!