Paul Hexem Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 1 minute ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: Modernisation? Lua code is even older than SL... Seriously, go learn about things before you talk about them... And the puzzle is "Why do we need to 'modernise' creation", and you don't have an actual valid answer for that. Especially when the modernisations ae not that modern, why replace LSL, custom created to suit SL's needs, with an OLDER system, that doesn't fit SL's needs. "But... But... Somebody told me Lua was the Futureness, so we must have it now!" No, you're right. LL should never update and then die when all the old people currently using it do. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Yatsenko Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 13 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said: That is impossible. The engine has to know what it is supposed to be reflecting. You can of course automatically place probes (LL have done so) but this will always be imperfect, if you want the engine to have as accurate information as possible it is necessary to place probes. It's not really painful, I'm not sure what is being considered so difficult about it either. Reflection probes do more than just reflect. If you encase an interior space (house, building, cave, skybox, etc) with one and set the ambient setting of the probe to 0, you get no environment lighting inside the area in the interior space as long as it's encapsulated. So it only relies on projector and point lights. 2 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: Modernisation? Lua code is even older than SL... Seriously, go learn about things before you talk about them... I guess it's time to port the viewer to RUST! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crexon Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 4 minutes ago, KanryDrago said: Because most folk log in to socialise with friends not to fiddle around with probes. I suspect that now firestorm are keeping the non pbr viewer most won't switch over because its not worth the extra hassle. I know I certainly have no plan too as I perceive no need that PBR is going to fill for me. Yes my machine could run PBR no problem, yes I am technical enough to work out how to set it up. I just won't bother however because it adds so little to my SL experience it just isn't worth it. I suspect I am not the only one thinking so. My answer to sims that go all out PBR and just become white plyboard will be to stop going to them, same with people who want a comment on their spangly new PBR clothes I will say you are wearing white plywood clothing as far as I can see and if they don't like it well that isn't my problem. Only time will tell if my prediction on people sticking with the old non PBR viewers is correct, if so we will no doubt see wails of "Why is my spangly new PBR sim empty and people are going to those older non updated sims" The same could be said for setting up their windlight/EEP. People figured out how to do it or find products they liked that did it for them. The same could be said for mesh bodies with their different options, skins, layer. People figured out how to do it or find products they liked that did it for them. The same could be said for building mesh inside of programs like Blender instead of just using prims inside of SL. People figured out how to do it or find products they liked that did it for them. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: According to the chart posted by Firestorm, most people already have switched over. 57 % is not really "most", it's just a slight majority. Unlike say American Politics, viewer usage numbers are not fed into an "electoral college" to skew a "slight majority" into a "landslide victory". You'd want a MUCH higher number to honestly claim "most". 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnnabelleApocalypse Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 11 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said: If you are making interior spaces and you do not actively think about filling the area with cube or sphere reflection probes you are going to have a bad time. It should be the creator's responsibility to set up reflection probes for customers. One of the best ways to learn is to study an example and getting a proper reflection probe build and dissecting is is a great place to start. 6 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said: House sellers yes and we do this as it's like having needles poked in your eyes working with probes in a house. I would not wish that on any customer. Furniture sellers (some of them and a certain large well known one) have taken to also adding probes to every piece of furniture. Combine those two..... Exactly, if everyone is adding reflection probes to EVERYTHING things are going to get funky. What about landscaping and outdoor stuff? Does every object sold now need a probe attached? Wont that cause conflicts if they bump into each other? 1 minute ago, AmeliaJ08 said: That is impossible. The engine has to know what it is supposed to be reflecting. You can of course automatically place probes (LL have done so) but this will always be imperfect, if you want the engine to have as accurate information as possible it is necessary to place probes. It's not really painful, I'm not sure what is being considered so difficult about it either. I would not say its "difficult". More annoying, time-consuming and fiddly. And also you need 50-100 extra prims free just for probes (if you want to cover a homestead). Since they cant be any bigger than a prim. 5 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said: The point of using the word "puzzle" is that it's not complete out of the box, that's not how they work. You can't just roll it out when it's "all done". That's not how SL works. No live service works that way after initial release. You roll out each feature as best you can. Granted LL is worse at it than the average developer, but if that's a surprise to you with PBR then you weren't here for BOM, mesh, ALM, sculpts, mono LSL, the Havok updates... Virtually anything LL has done ever. Actually, yep, was here for all of those. Check my forum post history, I have a long rich history of bitching at LL. Ill concede your first point, kind of. I still think a change on this scale should have been better thought through before releasing it onto the grid. Especially an environment as dynamic as SL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 4 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: 57 % is not really "most", it's just a slight majority. Unlike say American Politics, viewer usage numbers are not fed into an "electoral college" to skew a "slight majority" into a "landslide victory". You'd want a MUCH higher number to honestly claim "most". It's a significant majority, also known as most lol. It's also not a contest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 4 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: 57 % is not really "most", it's just a slight majority. Unlike say American Politics, viewer usage numbers are not fed into an "electoral college" to skew a "slight majority" into a "landslide victory". You'd want a MUCH higher number to honestly claim "most". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most Here's a "proper" "English" one as well: https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=most 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 4 minutes ago, Crexon said: The same could be said for setting up their windlight/EEP. People figured out how to do it or find products they liked that did it for them. The same could be said for mesh bodies with their different options, skins, layer. People figured out how to do it or find products they liked that did it for them. The same could be said for building mesh inside of programs like Blender instead of just using prims inside of SL. People figured out how to do it or find products they liked that did it for them. You missed the point though, mesh bodies were a huge enough improvement over standard avi's that users wanted them and took the time to work them out Not aware many bothered figuring out windlights (I certainly never bothered nor knew people that did) The vast majority of people in SL don't create mesh using blender or anything else PBR on the other hand and yes I can see the difference in the pictures posted in this forum, my point is that difference is so slight it isn't making me want to bother in the least 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 1 hour ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said: Exactly my conclusion too. I tried the new Skye texture bundles and really liked all the textures where you would expect reflectivity, but ALL the natural terrain textures looked "shrink-wrapped" in plastic. it might be "correct" technically, but artistically, in the context of Second Lifes current lighting model - they look like ass. No disrespect to Skye, long may he reign. But if one of our most talented content creators cant make it look good, were all in trouble. I was going to just carry on using my BP textures, but what is all this talk of eventually everything appearing white/blank? What fresh hell is this? Don't you DARE turn off BP textures LL. Even you cant be that stupid. They work, leave them alone! If they do that - and invalidate 20 years of content - I wont be hanging around. BP textures will always render, its PBR textures that will look white/blank if you don’t have a PBR viewer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 2 minutes ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said: And also you need 50-100 extra prims free just for probes (if you want to cover a homestead). Since they cant be any bigger than a prim. But you don't? you'd need some for your interior spaces, maybe a few to cover the outdoors? I think there's maybe some confusion here, each object doesn't need its own reflection probes. Some are coming with them because the assumption is people have not already placed their own more generalized probes on their parcels. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 7 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: 57 % is not really "most", it's just a slight majority. Unlike say American Politics, viewer usage numbers are not fed into an "electoral college" to skew a "slight majority" into a "landslide victory". You'd want a MUCH higher number to honestly claim "most". Is that chart however based on how many have downloaded the new viewer....Not aware LL publishes stats on how many people use each viewer and what version which is the only measure. If as I suspect its based on downloads of the latest viewer doesn't mean people haven't tried it then gone back to an older version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said: LL should never update and then die when all the old people currently using it do. Adding Lua is not "updating" it's regressing to the bad choices made over 25 years ago. Adding broken PBR is NOT going to bring in a "vast untapped new market". Adding GLTF Scenes is NOT going to bring in a "vast untapped new market". Adding LUA is NOT going to bring in a "vast untapped new market". Adding Vulkan is NOT going to bring in a "vast untapped new market". These modernisations will not "ensure the Futureness of SL" by bringing in any significant number of new users. But it might well ensure the demise, due to driving off a substantial percentage of the users SL has left. 8 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said: No, you're right. Compared to the inane nonsense you posted, my being right, isn't that hard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 (edited) 11 minutes ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said: I would not say its "difficult". More annoying, time-consuming and fiddly. And also you need 50-100 extra prims free just for probes (if you want to cover a homestead). Since they cant be any bigger than a prim. Many new environmental settings are available now....many are even free. I'm using the new ones on my 2 full sims and have no need to create probes for them. Edited August 27 by Luna Bliss 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 Everything must stay the same! Nothing can change! I don't like learning! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnnabelleApocalypse Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 3 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said: But you don't? you'd need some for your interior spaces, maybe a few to cover the outdoors? I think there's maybe some confusion here, each object doesn't need its own reflection probes. Some are coming with them because the assumption is people have not already placed their own more generalized probes on their parcels. I was assuming to equally light an entire homestead, I need to cover the entire surface (which I use for the most part) with probes. Is that not the case? And as each probe an only be as big as a max-sized prim, and they are spherical so need to overlap...... Then I have some caves, so theres another bunch that I will need. Or am I grabbing the wrong part of the donkey here? Creators attaching probes to every object sounds like a really, really bad idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most Here's a "proper" "English" one as well: https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=most From Webster's, the page you linked... "Although considered by some to be unacceptable in all cases, most is often used to mean "almost" in both spoken and, to a lesser extent, written English to modify the adjectives all, every, and any; the pronouns all, everyone, everything, everybody, anyone, anything, and anybody; and the adverbs everywhere, anywhere, and always. " You used "most" to dishonestly imply a vast majority, contrary to the actual figures. That's why I said... 14 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: You'd want a MUCH higher number to honestly claim "most". Emphasis on the word honestly. 10 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said: It's also not a contest. Then why are you people pushing disinformation so hard to deny the existence of people having problems with PBR, to deny the existence of people who CAN'T use PBR, and deny the existence of people who WON'T use PBR? If it's not a "contest". 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnnabelleApocalypse Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 (edited) 4 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said: Everything must stay the same! Nothing can change! I don't like learning! I dont think anyone is saying that. People are moaning about the implementation/execution of the change, not the change per se. Or, speaking for myself at least. Edited August 27 by AnnabelleApocalypse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 Just now, AmeliaJ08 said: Everything must stay the same! Nothing can change! I don't like learning! Some changes are good, some indifferent, some bad get over it. Executing the poorest decile every decade would improve the GINI coefficient in countries....it wouldn't be a good change however. Why waste time learning PBR when it doesn't offer anything a lot of people just aren't "must have the most blingy graphics" people. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 (edited) 9 minutes ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said: I was assuming to equally light an entire homestead, I need to cover the entire surface (which I use for the most part) with probes. Is that not the case? And as each probe an only be as big as a max-sized prim, and they are spherical so need to overlap...... Then I have some caves, so theres another bunch that I will need. Or am I grabbing the wrong part of the donkey here? Creators attaching probes to every object sounds like a really, really bad idea. I believe in a large outdoor area you would need one probe or a small handful (apparently effectiveness decreases with distance), no need to stretch or resize it. As far as I know, anyway. Of course if you had outdoor areas where this isn't desirable such as say a dense dark forest you would probably want to place additional probes to cover this. Of course there is also the auto-probes that viewers place themselves, there is an argument that for many outdoor spaces you simply do not need to add any of your own. I think people are finding they still have to though to improve results. Your interior spaces with their more specific needs would have probes that can be resized to encompass the space and avoid 'bleed' into outdoors. Edited August 27 by AmeliaJ08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 1 minute ago, KanryDrago said: Why waste time learning PBR when it doesn't offer anything a lot of people just aren't "must have the most blingy graphics" people. We've yet to see, fully, what PBR will offer though. I already see changes I like with the light, even when content isn't PBR, so I'm looking forward to even greater changes. Sure, if most couldn't see the difference it wouldn't be worth the change, but I don't think that will be the case...eventually. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 9 minutes ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said: Then I have some caves, so theres another bunch that I will need. If I were you I'd just place a typical light in there for now until we understand all this better and better instructions are available. No need to get all stressed out if you can avoid it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 9 minutes ago, KanryDrago said: Why waste time learning PBR If you're not interested in creation you have to learn exactly nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 Just now, AmeliaJ08 said: If you're not interested in creation you have to learn exactly nothing. I have to put probes out apparently....its time I would rather spend socialising with friends 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 10 minutes ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said: I dont think anyone is saying that. People are moaning about the implementation/execution of the change, not the change per se. Or, speaking for myself at least. I didn't mean you there's a lot of pushback simply because this is new though, it seems to be the same whenever anything new comes to the grid and is entirely due to being unwilling to experiment and learn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: No need to get all stressed out if you can avoid it You remind me of the person, who, after a build I and a friend had done got seriously damaged by an imbecile, creating about a weeks work for my friend and I, said "but cant you just fix it in 10 mins, why get stressed out". Who the hell are you to tell somebody not to get stressed out at things badly affecting their build? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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