What Features Are Missing From Other Viewers That Would Get You To Use Them?

[Cristiano Midnight]

I have seen a lot of discussion recently about Alchemy as an alternative to Firestorm, but for me it lacks a few key features that keep me on Firestorm. I use the hell out of Favorite Wearables and also Contact Sets, but I have not found any other viewer with similar functionality. I also like some other QoL features in Firestorm that I have not seen elsewhere. I do use Black Dragon for photography at times, and I know Alchemy has adapted their posing tool, but neither viewer makes me want to switch full time away from Firestorm. What keeps you using the viewer you use?

[stlshayne]

I'd really like the skeleton adjuster that Black Dragon has to become more adopted. Such a pain when your photo is almost perfect but your pose has your avi's hang in their thigh or whatnot. Yes, I know there are huds, but they can be a PITA. 

[Blush Bravin]

If it weren't for area search and derender objects, I'd probably switch to the LL viewer full time. Since the LL viewer has incorporated the copy/paste function for prim parameters into the build menu, I'm quite happy using it for building. So, it's just those two features that keep me hanging on even though my performance in FS is IMO far inferior to that of the LL viewer, especially now with PBR.

[stlshayne]

4 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

If it weren't for area search and derender objects, I'd probably switch to the LL viewer full time. Since the LL viewer has incorporated the copy/paste function for prim parameters into the build menu, I'm quite happy using it for building. So, it's just those two features that keep me hanging on even though my performance in FS is IMO far inferior to that of the LL viewer, especially now with PBR.

It's been so long since I've used the LL viewer. It really doesn't have deserndering objects? That's nearly horrifying. I don't derender often, but when I do, it's usually for my sanity. 

Edited July 24 by stlshayne

[discussionbot]

18 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

I have seen a lot of discussion recently about Alchemy as an alternative to Firestorm, but for me it lacks a few key features that keep me on Firestorm

Alchemy is still in beta. I haven’t looked at their roadmap but I imagine they will be actively adding more features to it as they go along. 

[Cristiano Midnight]

20 minutes ago, stlshayne said:

I'd really like the skeleton adjuster that Black Dragon has to become more adopted. Such a pain when your photo is almost perfect but your pose has your avi's hang in their thigh or whatnot. Yes, I know there are huds, but they can be a PITA. 

I have found AnyPose is good enough in most cases, but yeah, the BD pose tool is perfection. It is complex though. I wish LL would finally just let avatar bones be scriptable in world. AnyPose and Animare had to go to ridiculous lengths to get their pose tools to work, and it is why they are so imprecise. They use a bunch of micro animations to pose the bones. BD's pose tool is fully client side, so it can control everything, but you can't use it to pose anyone but yourself. Still, it is an incredible tool and I use it all the time, especially now that you can use it to actually create poses and export them.

[Blush Bravin]

5 minutes ago, stlshayne said:

It's been so long since I've used the LL viewer. It really doesn't have deserndering objects? That's nearly horrifying. I don't derender often, but when I do, it's usually for my sanity. 

I use derender often!!! Currently, I've been derendering a boat that crashed into my neighbor's land. The neighbor doesn't have autoreturn turned on, so that boat just sits there making a horrible racket. Years ago, during my Sansar days, I asked Xiola Linden why it wasn't in the LL viewer. Her response made me think it was intentionally not included but didn't give me any indication of why it wasn't. I walked away thinking it wouldn't ever be included. But I never thought the LL viewer would include the copy/paste function either. So, I still have my fingers crossed that it will show up someday.

[Cristiano Midnight]

17 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

If it weren't for area search and derender objects, I'd probably switch to the LL viewer full time. Since the LL viewer has incorporated the copy/paste function for prim parameters into the build menu, I'm quite happy using it for building. So, it's just those two features that keep me hanging on even though my performance in FS is IMO far inferior to that of the LL viewer, especially now with PBR.

I am curious what causes the performance hit in Firestorm specifically. I also use derendering, either temporarily or to get rid of things in my view. It is crazy that it is not a base feature of the LL viewer. That said, I would never, ever go back to the main viewer.

I recall the creator of Black Dragon saying the reason he never integrated area search is that it is a terrible hack that affects sim performance. I am not sure if that is the case, but I do find he tends to be right about these things (and stubborn as all hell lol).

Edited July 24 by Cristiano Midnight

[stlshayne]

9 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

I have found AnyPose is good enough in most cases, but yeah, the BD pose tool is perfection. It is complex though. I wish LL would finally just let avatar bones be scriptable in world. AnyPose and Animare had to go to ridiculous lengths to get their pose tools to work, and it is why they are so imprecise. They use a bunch of micro animations to pose the bones. BD's pose tool is fully client side, so it can control everything, but you can't use it to pose anyone but yourself. Still, it is an incredible tool and I use it all the time, especially now that you can use it to actually create poses and export them.

Imagine if we had a pose editor that functioned with the build menu. Arrows and wheels to move and rotate. Something between like Black Dragon and Animare/Anypose. Bc I agree, The Black Dragon pose editor, when I've used it, is quite complicated. I do like the hug based pose editors we have, but they can be quite finnicky. 

Edited July 24 by stlshayne

[Caitlin Tobias]

I only use the LL Viewer, but I use FS for some occasions (not more than 2-3 times per year) because of the derender option when making machinima.
I find the LL Viewer's performance best for me, especially now with BPR.

Derender in the LL Viewer would be nice, but it’s not a must for me.

[Katherine Heartsong]

Area search. Derender. Favorites panel. Custom AO is the big one for me, so no HUDS and easy way to swap normal with dance or pose animations.

I'd have to have all of those in an alternate viewer to consider switching.

FS still wins and maintains 40fps on a ultra wide 4HD full screen.

Edited July 24 by Katherine Heartsong
spelling

[Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia]

38 minutes ago, stlshayne said:

I'd really like the skeleton adjuster that Black Dragon has to become more adopted. Such a pain when your photo is almost perfect but your pose has your avi's hang in their thigh or whatnot. Yes, I know there are huds, but they can be a PITA. 

Yes!  The only reason I ever switch viewers is to use the Black Dragon poser.  It would also be awesome of we could save the poses to create animations, qavimator style, but in-viewer, with all the bento bones.

[Gabriele Graves]

The LL viewer hasn't had Linux support for years, some of the other viewers are Windows only too.  No Windows-based viewers run well enough under the simulated Windows environment (WINE) to make it worth it either.  According to feedback on canny though, LL may be adding back Linux support again.

So, native Linux support is a bare minimum for me in a viewer though not enough by itself to make me switch.

There are so many FS features I've come to rely on over the years some of which are mentioned in the posts above mine, even if all those useful things were adopted by another Linux viewer, it would also have to have some other highly useful feature I cannot get from FS or there would be no point in switching anyway.

I think that would be a high bar to climb over though possible.

Edited July 24 by Gabriele Graves

[Tayln Osbourne]

For Alchemy, the biggest feature that has been constantly requested to us is Area Search. We're working on it, but we want to put our own flavor to it.

14 hours ago, Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia said:

Yes!  The only reason I ever switch viewers is to use the Black Dragon poser.  It would also be awesome of we could save the poses to create animations, qavimator style, but in-viewer, with all the bento bones.

15 hours ago, stlshayne said:

I'd really like the skeleton adjuster that Black Dragon has to become more adopted. Such a pain when your photo is almost perfect but your pose has your avi's hang in their thigh or whatnot. Yes, I know there are huds, but they can be a PITA. 

Alchemy has BD's Poser and Pose Creator, if you're interested in trying out Alchemy.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

14 minutes ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

Alchemy has BD's Poser and Pose Creator, if you're interested in trying out Alchemy.

And as someone who's been using it over the past week, I can affirm that it works beautifully.

14 minutes ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

For Alchemy, the biggest feature that has been constantly requested to us is Area Search. We're working on it, but we want to put our own flavor to it.

Very much looking forward to this, which is probably the single biggest thing I miss from Firestorm.

Now . . . can we talk about "Teleport History" . . . ?

🙂

Oh, and just to add, I got some great help from the Alchemy support group last night!

[Tayln Osbourne]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And as someone who's been using it over the past week, I can affirm that it works beautifully.

Very much looking forward to this, which is probably the single biggest thing I miss from Firestorm.

Now . . . can we talk about "Teleport History" . . . ?

🙂

Oh, and just to add, I got some great help from the Alchemy support group last night!

I'm pretty sure every viewer has teleport history as that's a LL feature, or is there something in particular Firestorm does?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

I'm pretty sure every viewer has teleport history as that's a LL feature, or is there something in particular Firestorm does?

Maybe I just haven't found it yet! It wasn't until last night that I discovered how to save a camera position!

I'll look again.

ETA: Found it, under "Places > Visited"

FS has it listed separately under the World menu, but yes, it's the same thing.

Edited July 25 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Midnoot]

Hiding look at targets is number one . Once you have that , going back is uncomfortable af.

 

Area search is number 2. I never wanna go back to manually having to find stuff im trying to buy when I can just tp in and area search it and get out.

Edited July 25 by Midnoot

[Arielle Popstar]

A grid manager is a must for me as I spend equal amounts of time in SL and my personal grid, as well as some other Opensim ones. I prefer using one viewer for any rather then needing to switch depending on the Grid I am logging into.

[rasterscan]

I'm pretty sure every viewer has teleport history as that's a LL feature, or is there something in particular Firestorm does?

I drag the 'Teleport History' button from prefs>toolbar buttons to the toolbar at the bottom of firestorm. A real handy button.

[Aiyumei]

I think the only thing that attracts me to the Alchemy Viewer is the ability to export in .anim 
I guess I'll continue to be full time BD user for the time being 

[AmeliaJ08]

Essentials are Favorite Wearables, Area Search, built in AO, LookAt privacy, Derender and "Show friends only". As far as I know I don't make much/any use of any other Firestorm specific features but there might be something I'm not aware is Firestorm specific.

I also do like the ability to clean up the viewer window and remove basically everything, not sure if they all offer it. I mean deleting basically all of the buttons at the bottom, I only have three and they're pushed far to the right of the screen. Of course I can't really tolerate v1 interfaces either, has to be v2 and definitely not like how official does it.

 

Edited July 25 by AmeliaJ08

[Rick Nightingale]

Biggest killers for me if they are missing are:

1. Support mouse-walking the way Firestorm does.
2. Decent 6-axis controller support.
3. RLVa.

If those are missing, forget it. Other features, I might learn to live without if there was a reason to stick with the viewer otherwise.

For those unaware (I know from past experience there are some)... in Firestorm, you can left-click on your avatar or the nametag, hold that down and at the same time press the right button to walk or run in the direction your are facing. It's the easiest, most natural way to move. Far better than using the keyboard. (Edit: I guess it's less relevant to laptop touchpad users.)

A six-axis controller, sometimes called a 3D mouse, is a fantastic accessory for SL (and any 3D programs like Blender). You can move you avatar with the SpaceMouse, in all possible ways and directions including going into fly mode, just with that one knob. Movement can feel a bit clunky though because forward is still limited to two speeds (the Spacemouse is analogue, the viewer doesn't use it) and you need to severely tweak the pitch setting otherwise walking causes rapid zooming unless your hands are perfect. The mouse walk still feels better though.

Even better than that (and fully analogue this time) is the use of the freecam mode when building or just looking around. I just click the button on  the SpaceMouse and the camera is detached from the avatar, and now the SpaceMouse moves the camera. Anywhere, everywhere, with no look-at crosshairs for people to whinge about if you accidentally look at them. It's just the best! Press the button again and the camera snaps back to the avatar. Oh, and you can walk with the mouse (or keyboard) while the camera is in freecam mode, and watch yourself walking around. That takes a bit of two-hand dexterity (rub your head, pat your belly or whatever). I used to use that when doing sailing battles, being able to control my ship and fire with one hand, but with the camera free and moving around to give me the best overall view of the battle.

Edited July 25 by Rick Nightingale

[Rick Nightingale]

20 hours ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

Still, it is an incredible tool and I use it all the time, especially now that you can use it to actually create poses and export them.

I didn't know that. Could be very useful, instead of making them in Blender and having to go back and forth in-world tweaking them.

[Sid Nagy]

I would change if a TPV would offer a weekly 1000 free L$ stipend.

For the rest... I'm so used to the LL viewer, that I will not change viewers anytime soon.