Problems with Linden Lab's plans to attract new users.

[Persephone Emerald]

This video is mostly about the mobile viewer app, but it also mentions that new users expect to look good or be able to customize their avatar easily, then the get a crappy-looking starter avatar that can't be properly updated without spending a bunch of money.

What else do you think LL needs to do to attract and retain new users? Will the mobile viewer help or hurt this goal? Is it even good enough now to be available to new users, or should it not yet be available to the general public? Was introducing a mobile viewer and PBR at the same time a mistake, with each experience at cross-purposes to each other?

[JacksonBollock]

"What happens when a virtual world collides with the palm of your hand?"

I'm guessing the usual, a couple of kleenex and the familar feeling of self loathing....

Edited July 14 by JacksonBollock

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Persephone Emerald said:

This video is mostly about the mobile viewer app, but it also mentions that new users expect to look good or be able to customize their avatar easily, then the get a crappy-looking starter avatar that can't be properly updated without spending a bunch of money.

What else do you think LL needs to do to attract and retain new users? Will the mobile viewer help or hurt this goal? Is it even good enough now to be available to new users, or should it not yet be available to the general public? Was introducing a mobile viewer and PBR at the same time a mistake, with each experience at cross-purposes to each other?

Well gee PBR needs a top end computer, and yet they are encouraging people to log in on their phones? Totally incompatible, total fail

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

I enjoyed that video. I am not sure what the Labs plans are for this app, but from what I've seen it will not attract new users. The marketing for it shouldn't even start, yet.  It's not ready for release and won't be useful for much in the way of immersive play.   The mobile app appears to only be useful to people who are already in SL. (which having it only available to subscription payers is true)

I think LL needs to focus on getting people inworld on their computers/laptops.  That means the boring work of making the viewers more efficient and smooth.  The boring work of fixing inworld chats and other quality of life issues. All the new shinies are kinda nice, I guess, but they didn't improve my SL in the slightest.  None of the new stuff released this year will attract new users.  All they've done is tick off some long-time, invested residents with "it's safer for child avatars and it looks prettier for some people"

Second Life does need to attempt to keep up with the times and the technology, but without a usable core product, all the new stuff won't lead anywhere.  Focus on the community aspect, making friends, meeting people, making a decent looking avatar.  It's fine to focus on just making professional creators happy with shiny stuff, but if there is no one inworld to buy it or use it, then what is the point? It's fine to offer a mobile app extension of Second Life, but it won't bring new users in.  The core product will do that if marketed correctly and if the viewers are usable to a majority.   If people make friends, they'll be back. If introverts sign up, they need to know they can enjoy SL alone as well.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Well gee PBR needs a top end computer, and yet they are encouraging people to log in on their phones? Totally incompatible, total fail

Perhaps PBR is the reason the Mobile rollout has been slow but to me it is necessary as people are demanding a greater mobility for their digital connections. As a long time Lumiya user, it is especially the summertime where I grate at being chained to a desktop when I could be outside in the yard watching the grass grow while chatting inworld!

[Istelathis]

Avakin Life, and IMVU avatars by comparison of Second Life's expensive avatars look pretty lousy.  A lot of people will ridicule Senra avatars as outright ugly, but on a mobile device, it is not going to be as noticeable for most users.  

Above is Avakin Life, a free avatar

Second Life, free avatar (Senra)  I am far from a talented shaper of avatars, and as such this is only a comparison of my own skill.. others have produced far better results with Senra.

I think by comparison, Senra comes out ahead of Avakin's free avatars.  But in a way, it is strange how we view our avatars in virtual environments.  It comes down to what is available on that platform I think, Senra compared to the best of what SL has to provide is lacking, but compared to other platforms?  If we were to take Senra and plop it into Avakin life, or even IMVU, I think people might be fawning over it.  

As far as functionality, I prefer moving with the SL mobile joystick, whereas AL you touch where you want to walk.  The functionality of our user interface in the app is what is missing in mobile, but I imagine for now the developers are more concerned with the rendering of the world, than the interface.  I suspect with time, they will implement for features for us to access our directories, maps, minimaps, pay systems, and so on.  

I do agree with her with the reviews, it is unfortunate to see the lower rating for what is a beta launch of the app.  As time progresses, I am sure if the app is not completely abandoned, that we will get a decent interface along with a nice rendering of the world and our avatars, and on top of that perhaps the ability to even build in world.  

 

Edit:
Another thing I agree with though, land prices are crazy in SL.  I brought this up months and months ago, in order to compete with Avakin Life, which does provide free housing, SL might have to consider some form of housing that is free - but how they manage that without going bankrupt is beyond me.  

Edited July 14 by Istelathis

[Extrude Ragu]

Honestly the thing about the Senra is I think LL were trying to make a starter avatar that was as inoffensive as possible and thus the avatars have no feminine or masculine features, making them look like weird alien people. It also doesn't hellp that the community was largely kept out of the creation process.

[Rolig Loon]

The mobile app doesn't appeal to me personally -- too much like trying to look at the world through a porthole -- but I'm sure it will appeal to plenty of people who are much more comfortable doing their daily browsing and communicating on a cell phone.  I'm not sure whether it will make any difference whether the mobile version is ever fully compatible with PBR, which I think may be best for large screens anyway.  Will either feature make a difference in attracting new users?  I'm pretty sure that PBR will, if only because it's what people have been seeing on other platforms for the past decade.  Personally, I like it. SL newcomers will be increasingly comparing us to those other platforms and saying that we look old and outdated.  I'm less sure about the mobile viewer, but that probably says more about my own bias toward using a desktop. Again, though, it may be just enough to snag newcomers who are playing other "games" on tablets and their phones today.  Record me in the wishy-washy column, I guess.

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Istelathis said:

[snip]

... in order to compete with Avakin Life, which does provide free housing, SL might have to consider some form of housing that is free - but how they manage that without going bankrupt is beyond me.  

How about free 256 m skyboxes? They could be in an area apart from mainland or over what are now abandoned regions. They could have a big window on one side with either texture change faux views or clear, so people can see the clouds and sunlight or stars and moon ⛅️ . Add a fake door with a teleporter in it too. Users of IMVU get skyboxes as homes, so this would be similar, just a room where people can unpack, change outfits, and put a couple chairs and a bed if the wish. 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

They need a reason to stay first.  Offering a free skybox is nice and will help new people out with a tiny bit of privacy, but they need to be hooked on something in order to find value in that.  Maybe the skybox has a 1 or 2 avatar limit and a 20 prim limit, so people still want to get their own land and house.

ETA - Or they make a noobie village of these tiny parcels with a privacy box, so noobies can bond over being new. Here's your privacy box with 2 chairs and a PG bed with singles animations. 

Edited July 14 by Cinnamon Mistwood

[Istelathis]

32 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

How about free 256 m skyboxes? They could be in an area apart from mainland or over what are now abandoned regions. They could have a big window on one side with either texture change faux views or clear, so people can see the clouds and sunlight or stars and moon ⛅️ . Add a fake door with a teleporter in it too. Users of IMVU get skyboxes as homes, so this would be similar, just a room where people can unpack, change outfits, and put a couple chairs and a bed if the wish. 

I was thinking perhaps instanced housing, with lower li.  If they were to do this though, it would give people less incentive to purchase land in SL, it becomes a bit of a mess trying to figure out a way it would work.  Mobile will be competing with similar platforms that do provide free housing though, I haven't logged into Avakin Life for what seems like months now, and all of my homes are still there, multiple ones which I purchased mostly by signing in daily, or watching ads.  They are there permanently, I don't have to worry about them ever, unless their policy for some reason changes or they close down.

Without a home to decorate, it might result in fewer new users wanting to participate, and is a loss of revenue for LL.  But giving away free land, might mean some of those who are already buying land in SL might abandon it in favor of free land.  Not to mention all of the people who currently rent out land.  

Perhaps property that can only be accessible via mobile, which brings in other problems though.  People who use desktop SL would feel cheated, no doubt, and there would be pushback.

 

 

Above are a couple of examples of homes (and a nice UI for outfits)  This is what SL will be competing with, and probably the same audience which will need to be swayed over to moving to mobile.  What SL has that AL doesn't though is so much more, vehicles, an open world, scripting, and so on.  

The discussion of free housing always gets people frustrated on these forums, so I will not take it too far.  I do think if SL wants to have newer people come into this environment, which relies heavily upon land ownership, they are going to have to rethink things in a way that will work for not only existing residents but the new ones as well.  I'm just glad it is not my job.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

32 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I was thinking perhaps instanced housing, with lower li.  If they were to do this though, it would give people less incentive to purchase land in SL, it becomes a bit of a mess trying to figure out a way it would work.  Mobile will be competing with similar platforms that do provide free housing though, I haven't logged into Avakin Life for what seems like months now, and all of my homes are still there, multiple ones which I purchased mostly by signing in daily, or watching ads.  They are there permanently, I don't have to worry about them ever, unless their policy for some reason changes or they close down.

Without a home to decorate, it might result in fewer new users wanting to participate, and is a loss of revenue for LL.  But giving away free land, might mean some of those who are already buying land in SL might abandon it in favor of free land.  Not to mention all of the people who currently rent out land.  

Perhaps property that can only be accessible via mobile, which brings in other problems though.  People who use desktop SL would feel cheated, no doubt, and there would be pushback.

 

 

Above are a couple of examples of homes (and a nice UI for outfits)  This is what SL will be competing with, and probably the same audience which will need to be swayed over to moving to mobile.  What SL has that AL doesn't though is so much more, vehicles, an open world, scripting, and so on.  

The discussion of free housing always gets people frustrated on these forums, so I will not take it too far.  I do think if SL wants to have newer people come into this environment, which relies heavily upon land ownership, they are going to have to rethink things in a way that will work for not only existing residents but the new ones as well.  I'm just glad it is not my job.

Agreed, do like other worlds do, you get a free home, but its instanced. It only exists when you are logged in.

All those permanent houses you own, they are not there, only when you log in do they come into existance

It doesn't even exist on the world map, its just there, somewhere, when you log in.

Edited July 14 by BilliJo Aldrin
added stuff, then more stuff

[Istelathis]

@BilliJo Aldrin Yep, or if you leave it open for the public it will be initialized when they enter it. 

 

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

They need a reason to stay first.  Offering a free skybox is nice and will help new people out with a tiny bit of privacy, but they need to be hooked on something in order to find value in that.  Maybe the skybox has a 1 or 2 avatar limit and a 20 prim limit, so people still want to get their own land and house.

ETA - Or they make a noobie village of these tiny parcels with a privacy box, so noobies can bond over being new. Here's your privacy box with 2 chairs and a PG bed with singles animations. 

If its like the SL starter homes, some people will move in and never leave.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Istelathis said:

@BilliJo Aldrin Yep, or if you leave it open for the public it will be initialized when they enter it. 

 

 

It can't be open to the public, because as soon as you log out, it disappears. It instances when you log in, and goes away when you log out

[AmeliaJ08]

Yeah making every new user look like Zuckerberg was an interesting choice...

 

[AmeliaJ08]

4 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Well gee PBR needs a top end computer, and yet they are encouraging people to log in on their phones? Totally incompatible, total fail

It really doesn't lol. Also the mobile viewer is an entirely different engine, PBR should be comparatively simple to enable.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

It really doesn't lol. Also the mobile viewer is an entirely different engine, PBR should be comparatively simple to enable.

 

Well, I'm running an nvidea 705 with the box open and two fans blowing on it to keep it from over heating and shutting down when I'm on SL. If it starts overheating anyway when I'm forced to see PBR, then we will have a problem,

I read someplace that phones are overheating trying to run the mobile app... so its a fail all around, mobile AND desktop.

 

[BriannaLovey]

4 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Well gee PBR needs a top end computer, and yet they are encouraging people to log in on their phones? Totally incompatible, total fail

The implementation of PBR in unity is more efficient than the implementation of PBR in the SL viewer, so this is not particularly true. It makes me wonder if they plan to eventually make the desktop viewer based on Unity as well in order to eliminate the cost associated with developing a custom rendering engine. The only disadvantage here is that Unity is a proprietary dependency, and LL's fate would be at the whims of whatever pricing model Unity has in the future.

Edited July 14 by BriannaLovey

[Extrude Ragu]

Given unity's track record, lets hope LL never goes down that path with desktop

[BriannaLovey]

5 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Given unity's track record, lets hope LL never goes down that path with desktop

Yeah, that would be an absolute disaster in the long run. I see the incentives that would push them in that direction, though.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Istelathis said:

I was thinking perhaps instanced housing, with lower li.  If they were to do this though, it would give people less incentive to purchase land in SL, it becomes a bit of a mess trying to figure out a way it would work.  Mobile will be competing with similar platforms that do provide free housing though, I haven't logged into Avakin Life for what seems like months now, and all of my homes are still there, multiple ones which I purchased mostly by signing in daily, or watching ads.  They are there permanently, I don't have to worry about them ever, unless their policy for some reason changes or they close down.

Without a home to decorate, it might result in fewer new users wanting to participate, and is a loss of revenue for LL.  But giving away free land, might mean some of those who are already buying land in SL might abandon it in favor of free land.  Not to mention all of the people who currently rent out land.  

Perhaps property that can only be accessible via mobile, which brings in other problems though.  People who use desktop SL would feel cheated, no doubt, and there would be pushback.

 

Above are a couple of examples of homes (and a nice UI for outfits)  This is what SL will be competing with, and probably the same audience which will need to be swayed over to moving to mobile.  What SL has that AL doesn't though is so much more, vehicles, an open world, scripting, and so on.  

The discussion of free housing always gets people frustrated on these forums, so I will not take it too far.  I do think if SL wants to have newer people come into this environment, which relies heavily upon land ownership, they are going to have to rethink things in a way that will work for not only existing residents but the new ones as well.  I'm just glad it is not my job.

If Avakin is like Imvu then yes, instancing but you pay for it upfront when buying the house where 25-50% of the cost goes to the platform. Free accounts allowed 2-3 permanent ones and VIP is allowed 10 with a limit of 10 or less avatars at a time. The result is many more residents buy houses/skyboxes/rooms because they can always use them should they choose, unlike SL where people who don't rent or own land, don't buy houses or furnishings.

One of the Lab gabs there was mention of making another premium level that would be more fit for Mobile users. Perhaps they had that instancing in mind though nothing more has been said about it for a while.

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Agreed, do like other worlds do, you get a free home, but its instanced. It only exists when you are logged in.

All those permanent houses you own, they are not there, only when you log in do they come into existance

It doesn't even exist on the world map, its just there, somewhere, when you log in.

This sounds like a good idea, but is it possible in SL? Is SL set up to allow instanced regions or parcels? Maybe the coding for instanced locations would be too difficult to work into the existing programs.

[BriannaLovey]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

This sounds like a good idea, but is it possible in SL? Is SL set up to allow instanced regions or parcels? Maybe the coding for instanced locations would be too difficult to work into the existing programs.

Kitely (an OpenSim grid) used to do something similar, where regions would be shut down whenever nobody was using them in order to conserve costs.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Kitely (an OpenSim grid) used to do something similar, where regions would be shut down whenever nobody was using them in order to conserve costs.

They still do and is part of the reason they are one of the more stable, long lived and reasonably priced grids out there.