inventory size Inventory Dilemma

[Eli Vespucciano]

In my thoughts and belive this could potentially save storage space and improve performance by reducing the amount of duplicate data that needs to be stored and processed. By automatically identifying and removing redundant copies of objects, the game viewer could streamline the gameplay experience for users and make the overall gaming experience more efficient. Additionally, this feature could help prevent issues such as lag or crashes caused by an excess of unnecessary data. Overall, implementing a system to delete extra copies of copyable items and those annoying extra landmarks in a game viewer could lead to a smoother and more enjoyable gaming experience for players. I wish i had the ability to code..

[Qie Niangao]

It seems you're also concerned with inventory clutter and its effect on the user experience, but as for storage space and duplicate data: Not much is duplicated. The storage is pretty optimized about stuff like this, and a "copy" of an item in Inventory is nothing like a replication of all the data in the item… and even the original copiable item is nothing like a copy of all the stuff that went into making that item. Rather, these inventory items are more like pointers to where a single copy of the most basic instance of the item is stored, where individual copies may also contain parameters (scale, etc.) where those differ from that "most basic" original. And, of course, shared assets (such as Materials painted on various objects' surfaces) are only stored once and retrieved by the viewer as needed to render the object.

Personally, I routinely just search Inventory for all Landmarks and delete them wholesale, duplicate or not. The half-life of their validity is so short I consider them clutter, easier to use viewer Search to find where the venue is currently located because so many of them move so frequently.

[AmeliaJ08]

33 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It seems you're also concerned with inventory clutter and its effect on the user experience, but as for storage space and duplicate data: Not much is duplicated. The storage is pretty optimized about stuff like this, and a "copy" of an item in Inventory is nothing like a replication of all the data in the item… and even the original copiable item is nothing like a copy of all the stuff that went into making that item. Rather, these inventory items are more like pointers to where a single copy of the most basic instance of the item is stored, where individual copies may also contain parameters (scale, etc.) where those differ from that "most basic" original. And, of course, shared assets (such as Materials painted on various objects' surfaces) are only stored once and retrieved by the viewer as needed to render the object.

Personally, I routinely just search Inventory for all Landmarks and delete them wholesale, duplicate or not. The half-life of their validity is so short I consider them clutter, easier to use viewer Search to find where the venue is currently located because so many of them move so frequently.

It's a testament to how good the inventory system really is that this is such a common misunderstanding, of course if people really thought about it they'd quickly realize there couldn't possibly be any duplication of anything and the inventory is merely an illusion! While everything is just a pointer there's never really any indication to the user that this is the case.

Of course though this should also hit home a point: stuff is likely never deleted. If it is then it'll be on a scheduled basis and has nothing to do with the 'owner' of any item.

I have always wondered what the true size of SL's asset library really is, it must be pretty impressive nonetheless.

 

Edited July 14 by AmeliaJ08

[Eli Vespucciano]

48 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It seems you're also concerned with inventory clutter and its effect on the user experience, but as for storage space and duplicate data: Not much is duplicated. The storage is pretty optimized about stuff like this, and a "copy" of an item in Inventory is nothing like a replication of all the data in the item… and even the original copiable item is nothing like a copy of all the stuff that went into making that item. Rather, these inventory items are more like pointers to where a single copy of the most basic instance of the item is stored, where individual copies may also contain parameters (scale, etc.) where those differ from that "most basic" original. And, of course, shared assets (such as Materials painted on various objects' surfaces) are only stored once and retrieved by the viewer as needed to render the object.

Personally, I routinely just search Inventory for all Landmarks and delete them wholesale, duplicate or not. The half-life of their validity is so short I consider them clutter, easier to use viewer Search to find where the venue is currently located because so many of them move so frequently.

I understand your point of view but not everyone has the time. With rl keeps you busy. But I believe  one possible solution could be to automate the process of fixing viewer inventory. By programming a system or tool that can automatically update and organize viewer inventory, it can save time and effort for those who may not have the time to manually fix it themselves. This automation can help streamline the process and ensure that viewer inventory is always up-to-date and accurate. Additionally, providing easy-to-use tools for viewers to manage their own inventory can also help alleviate the burden on content creators or administrators. Ultimately, finding ways to simplify and automate tasks like fixing viewer inventory can improve overall user experience and efficiency.

[Eli Vespucciano]

25 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

It's a testament to how good the inventory system really is that this is such a common misunderstanding, of course if people really thought about it they'd quickly realize there couldn't possibly be any duplication of anything and the inventory is merely an illusion! While everything is just a pointer there's never really any indication to the user that this is the case.

Of course though this should also hit home a point: stuff is likely never deleted. If it is then it'll be on a scheduled basis and has nothing to do with the 'owner' of any item.

I have always wondered what the true size of SL's asset library really is, it must be pretty impressive nonetheless.

 

AmeliaJ08 :Having the option to automatically delete extra copies (That we place out and pick up and go on our merry way) of files could be a helpful feature for those with busy lives. It would save time and effort from having to constantly manage and delete unnecessary duplicates. This way, individuals can focus on more important tasks without the added burden of organizing their digital files. Automating this process would streamline workflow and improve efficiency for users who have limited time to spare for manual file management.

Edited July 14 by Eli Vespucciano

[SandorWren]

10 minutes ago, Eli Vespucciano said:

I understand your point of view but not everyone has the time. With rl keeps you busy. But I believe  one possible solution could be to automate the process of fixing viewer inventory. By programming a system or tool that can automatically update and organize viewer inventory, it can save time and effort for those who may not have the time to manually fix it themselves. This automation can help streamline the process and ensure that viewer inventory is always up-to-date and accurate. Additionally, providing easy-to-use tools for viewers to manage their own inventory can also help alleviate the burden on content creators or administrators. Ultimately, finding ways to simplify and automate tasks like fixing viewer inventory can improve overall user experience and efficiency.

The problem with an automated system, is that sometimes older versions can be more suitable. I don't necessarily want EVERYTHING updated.  It's not fun having to redo looks in our body and head huds, or tattoo layers. I want to keep the older versions for some outfits until I have a chance to match the newer one to the older one!!! The other issue is personal preference in organization. How would things be named? I make head backup copies, so if something happens, i have everything ready to go again!!! I rename these as "Backup of..."

[Eli Vespucciano]

21 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

The problem with an automated system, is that sometimes older versions can be more suitable. I don't necessarily want EVERYTHING updated.  It's not fun having to redo looks in our body and head huds, or tattoo layers. I want to keep the older versions for some outfits until I have a chance to match the newer one to the older one!!! The other issue is personal preference in organization. How would things be named? I make head backup copies, so if something happens, i have everything ready to go again!!! I rename these as "Backup of..."

That is why i said {Having the option to automatically delete extra copies}with the click of the checklist. Your speaking another topic.. but don't they have the lock option instilled  .

Edited July 14 by Eli Vespucciano

[SandorWren]

21 minutes ago, Eli Vespucciano said:

That is why i said {Having the option to automatically delete extra copies}with the click of the checklist. Your speaking another topic.. but don't they have the lock option instilled  .

What lock option? Protected folders?

[Eli Vespucciano]

2 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

What lock option? Protected folders?

There you go... I wish I had time on my hands. 

[SandorWren]

20 minutes ago, Eli Vespucciano said:

There you go... I wish I had time on my hands. 

I really DO get what your saying. SL time IS precious!!!

[Eli Vespucciano]

24 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

I really DO get what your saying. SL time IS precious!!!

It would be so convenient to have a feature that allows us to easily clean up our inventory in the game. With all the time and money I have invested, it can be frustrating to have cluttered inventory when you come in to enjoy an escape. A cleaning inventory option would not only make gameplay more enjoyable but also help us better manage our resources and items. It's a small perk that could make a big difference in the overall gaming experience.It can be frustrating to not have the time or energy to keep up with tasks in a game, especially when dealing with your own health issues and caring for a loved one that is 80. It's important to prioritize self-care and responsibilities in real life before worrying about virtual tasks, when technology is so advanced that should not be so difficult. 

Edited July 14 by Eli Vespucciano

[Qie Niangao]

I confess my Inventory is a total mess because I refuse to spend time organizing or pruning it when it's easier to just sort by date and when necessary, search it all. This is how I started using technology to save effort, ever since Gmail started beta and I realized I never needed to put an email in a folder ever again.

Because the SL system has some quirks, I occasionally sweep a chronological slice of everything into subfolders, to prevent any one folder from getting too huge (like thousands of entries at the same level). Otherwise I rarely touch anything other than move Lost+Found contents to Trash along with any demos I didn't delete immediately, and empty Trash.

I'm not necessarily promoting that approach to Inventory mismanagement, but it saves a tremendous amount of time. What I do recommend is using a viewer that can find the original of a link, and then all links of that original. Without that, it's pretty impossible to tell whether an item is used in one or more Outfits.

[SandorWren]

My Celia account is well managed. Because it's basically new. Not timewise, but usagewise. My OTHER accounts though...not so much!!!

[AmeliaJ08]

4 hours ago, Eli Vespucciano said:

It would be so convenient to have a feature that allows us to easily clean up our inventory in the game. With all the time and money I have invested, it can be frustrating to have cluttered inventory when you come in to enjoy an escape. A cleaning inventory option would not only make gameplay more enjoyable but also help us better manage our resources and items. It's a small perk that could make a big difference in the overall gaming experience.It can be frustrating to not have the time or energy to keep up with tasks in a game, especially when dealing with your own health issues and caring for a loved one that is 80. It's important to prioritize self-care and responsibilities in real life before worrying about virtual tasks, when technology is so advanced that should not be so difficult. 

Honestly a web API would make this a lot simpler for LL... someone else could build the tools!

They just need to expose inventory to the web somehow.

[Eli Vespucciano]

I

7 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Honestly a web API would make this a lot simpler for LL... someone else could build the tools!

They just need to expose inventory to the web somehow.

I am sure firestorm is listing 

[Richardus Raymaker]

Duplicate inventory items is a part that's required.a mesh body as example you have a master, a master copy you did modify for your avatar. And then the Daley mesh body you use in outfits. This way you can restore a boo boo easy.

And that's the same with more objects. You want to work with copy and keep the master. Not see a automatic duplicate cleanup as good thing.

A total commander style tool for managing inventory would be super. Makes it easy to manage. For me recently is broken also. It shows all items in FS

Instead the can better fix copy and paste and folder creation in outfits.

Edited July 15 by Richardus Raymaker

[Eli Vespucciano]

On 7/14/2024 at 11:44 AM, SandorWren said:

The problem with an automated system, is that sometimes older versions can be more suitable. I don't necessarily want EVERYTHING updated.  It's not fun having to redo looks in our body and head huds, or tattoo layers. I want to keep the older versions for some outfits until I have a chance to match the newer one to the older one!!! The other issue is personal preference in organization. How would things be named? I make head backup copies, so if something happens, i have everything ready to go again!!! I rename these as "Backup of..."

i guess my comment is flying over heads ..this has nothing to do with saved looks muahaha

 

[Persephone Emerald]

I'd like a Find and Replace option for changing terms I'm used in my inventory. For instance, "system" is now "BOM". It's too much work to do this all manually.

[Nyxie Nebula]

On 7/14/2024 at 9:39 AM, Qie Niangao said:

It seems you're also concerned with inventory clutter and its effect on the user experience, but as for storage space and duplicate data: Not much is duplicated. The storage is pretty optimized about stuff like this, and a "copy" of an item in Inventory is nothing like a replication of all the data in the item… and even the original copiable item is nothing like a copy of all the stuff that went into making that item. Rather, these inventory items are more like pointers to where a single copy of the most basic instance of the item is stored, where individual copies may also contain parameters (scale, etc.) where those differ from that "most basic" original. And, of course, shared assets (such as Materials painted on various objects' surfaces) are only stored once and retrieved by the viewer as needed to render the object.

Personally, I routinely just search Inventory for all Landmarks and delete them wholesale, duplicate or not. The half-life of their validity is so short I consider them clutter, easier to use viewer Search to find where the venue is currently located because so many of them move so frequently.

While this may be well and true, the increased NUMBERS of elements, due to duplicates especially, does indeed affect performance, load time, lag, inventory loss, and time lost having to manually sort and check every item for duplicates.  There are so many other, more enjoyable, things we'd rather be doing in our beautiful world of Second Life. 

I would champion anyone that could possibly create a tool to help or LL implementing an inventory "cleanup" option, an automatic duplicate finder if you will, that could very well increase active users as well as retaining a lot of older users whose massive inventories have virtually pushed them out of SL altogether. I have had many a friend who just gave up and started a new avatar and took a huge loss of hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars of real life money. I've also lost many friends just leaving SL completely because they don't have the precious time it takes to manually search and sort everything. They get so frustrated and quit because it takes too long to reasonably function and enjoy SL due to this sheer volume of elements.

I just really find it odd that one of the major push of our economy in SL is shopping, yet that just increases the headache of a larger inventory! So it's a vicious cycle that could so easily be remedied by giving us tools to quickly and easily maintain said inventory. It's a win win as it just will continue to increase the SL economy and resident experience and make it just one more reason to stay in our chosen world.

Edited September 19 by Nyxie Nebula
for clarity

[Qie Niangao]

33 minutes ago, Nyxie Nebula said:

While this may be well and true, the increased NUMBERS of elements, due to duplicates especially, does indeed affect performance, load time, lag, inventory loss, and time lost having to manually sort and check every item for duplicates.  There are so many other, more enjoyable, things we'd rather be doing in our beautiful world of Second Life. 

Where do so many duplicates come from? I don't doubt they exist, but I'm trying to understand how they arise in normal use of SL. I make some on purpose and then modify the copy from the original, but I realize that's not what you're talking about. I have some identical animations I've copied from different furniture items, I guess, and a few extra copies of scripts that go with them, sometimes I don't clean those up, but that doesn't seem a common problem. I'm sure I'm overlooking it.

But maybe more important: What gives you the impression that the numbers of inventory items affect performance, load time, lag, and inventory loss? I don't know for a fact that it doesn't happen, but I don't know that it does, either.

I admit I'm weird in only ever "sorting" inventory by shoveling chronological batches into folders to keep the structure from getting too "flat" (which supposedly does have some effect), but I've never noticed a slowdown, nor a single case of inventory loss (knock on wood). Are we sure this is a real problem? Because if all this sorting is unnecessary (because we can just search) and if item count doesn't really matter after all, it would be a waste to spend development time fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

One thing that would reduce clutter is if events quit encouraging merchants to set out gift trinkets for anniversaries, etc. I've gotten much more selective about picking any of those up—and I don't think I've missed out on anything I should regret—but still I'm sometimes tempted and then don't trash them all ruthlessly enough. Then they end up noise in search results, so that's a kind of "sorting" I guess, when I finally notice and delete them. But this doesn't seem an easy process to automate. 

[Aishagain]

This topic puzzles me.  I have many different iterations of a large number of items, differing only perhaps in texture and colour.

I do not need a tool to identify or delete such duplicates and my inventory is not choked, flat or slow to reload on the rare occasions I need to reload it from SL servers.

This has all the hallmarks of a solution in search of a problem.

Knowing the incidence of "oops" operations, I'd say the chances of inadvertent inventory loss due to the facility would be increased rather than decreased.

This is not a good idea, in my view.

Edited September 19 by Aishagain

[AmeliaJ08]

The only slight 'slowdown' I experience from a 100k+ (usually I get to work tidying it up if it his 120k but 100k would be about the average) inventory is that if the inventory cache is cleared it takes <30secs to rebuild on login.

That's it... I guess if it was 200k that might take a minute? and it's usually happening because of a cache clear so I'm also downloading a bunch of textures on login... it just doesn't seem like a big deal to have a large inventory.

I definitely don't find duplication to be an issue either, if anything most of the duplicates in my inventory are because I put them there, versions of various clothing items I have stored in their own subfolders. I guess there's probably a lot of duplicate landmarks to various stores, possibly some unpacker scripts etc but meh, I don't even notice them.

Edited September 19 by AmeliaJ08

[Nyxie Nebula]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Where do so many duplicates come from? I don't doubt they exist, but I'm trying to understand how they arise in normal use of SL. I make some on purpose and then modify the copy from the original, but I realize that's not what you're talking about. I have some identical animations I've copied from different furniture items, I guess, and a few extra copies of scripts that go with them, sometimes I don't clean those up, but that doesn't seem a common problem. I'm sure I'm overlooking it.

But maybe more important: What gives you the impression that the numbers of inventory items affect performance, load time, lag, and inventory loss? I don't know for a fact that it doesn't happen, but I don't know that it does, either.

I admit I'm weird in only ever "sorting" inventory by shoveling chronological batches into folders to keep the structure from getting too "flat" (which supposedly does have some effect), but I've never noticed a slowdown, nor a single case of inventory loss (knock on wood). Are we sure this is a real problem? Because if all this sorting is unnecessary (because we can just search) and if item count doesn't really matter after all, it would be a waste to spend development time fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

One thing that would reduce clutter is if events quit encouraging merchants to set out gift trinkets for anniversaries, etc. I've gotten much more selective about picking any of those up—and I don't think I've missed out on anything I should regret—but still I'm sometimes tempted and then don't trash them all ruthlessly enough. Then they end up noise in search results, so that's a kind of "sorting" I guess, when I finally notice and delete them. But this doesn't seem an easy process to automate. 

I know this for a fact because I have a large inventory and have numerous errors and it takes an incredible amount of time just to log in and then I have to wait for my inventory to stop fetching so that my animations load in the built in AO in Firestorm as well as my avatar to stop being a cloud. I have contacted LL concierge because I am a Premium Plus member and they have told me as such. 

Unfortunately, throughout the years, as a builder, store owner, and shoppaholic, I have sadly made duplicates and didn't have the time (or memory, god it sucks getting old lol!) to delete all my duplicates as they happened. Purchase redeliveries, objects, scripts, textures, animations, etc, they build up after almost 15 years in SL and I just haven't had the time to go through everything. I have special needs kiddos that need me full time and unlike some people in SL they get my attention first, always.  Real life work as well. So yeah, another reason I don't have the time to devote to maintaining an inventory that shouldn't be such an issue as this problem doesn't arise in other "games".

Recently, I have had so many errors, inventory losses, crashes, load issues, fetching issues that I have had to force myself to sit down to sort through and search everything and even a month in I'm only half way done. So yeah, finding duplicates automatically would be an amazing thing for my experience in Second Life. 

 

Oh and while I LOVE BOM, god what an inventory nightmare every layer is! I have since made my own hud for different ones to give myself as and when I need them, just to store them. Also, I am now grouping all items from particular brands that I purchase frequently in rezzers. This does help but the duplicate issue, nothing helps that.

Edited September 19 by Nyxie Nebula
More information...

[Qie Niangao]

45 minutes ago, Nyxie Nebula said:

Oh and while I LOVE BOM, god what an inventory nightmare every layer is! I have since made my own hud for different ones to give myself as and when I need them, just to store them. Also, I am now grouping all items from particular brands that I purchase frequently in rezzers. This does help but the duplicate issue, nothing helps that.

This makes me wonder... do you use Outfits? I mean, it blows up the inventory count, but the contents are links, not actual inventory items, so it's not the same overhead, but it sure makes BoM useful (and avoids the awful proliferation of applier-specific body copies).

I like the rezzer thing but yeah, it sounds like a lot of work. (I set up rezzers around my workspace so I can restore old projects and borrow from them again for new stuff, which somehow I can only remember by associating them with a location in my little "memory palace" of a workspace.)

I wonder if concierge could tell if it's really total number of Inventory items or possibly merely flatness of the tree. I ask because my inventory is about 120K (and I know at least one person with over 300K) and not having the kind of troubles you describe, and just thinking maybe my lazy approach to chronological filing might be a quick and easy stopgap to cut the immediate pain of losses, crashes, etc. Might have nothing to do with it, but it would be nice to find some relief if it would work.

[Aishagain]

It did occur to me that the use of the Outfits folder might well produce multiple instances of an item, but maybe to OP doesn't understand that (if used correctly) the Oufits folder does produce "elements" that increase the inventory count, but as Qie says above, those are LINKS, tiny  pointers to the items on the inventory and inventory server.

It really should not contribute to slow loading of textures and objects.  I say "should" because I am old in SL terms enough to know that just because something "should not" happen it will not happen.

Edited September 19 by Aishagain