PBR Changes Amount To Defacto Purge Of Old Content?

[Codex Alpha]

An interesting byproduct of these changes to PBR, the intended requirement to only allow people to see PBR content, is that all content that is not marked as such, or not updated will be OBSOLETE.

One just wonders too how LL will handle all the rush of complaints, confusion, people claiming they were 'ripped off' by listings that no longer work in PBR viewers.

Right now, there is no way to search by "PBR-Enabled", or at least with 'legacy' content. If that legacy content can no longer be seen or used, then the MP will effectively see a massive purge of old content.

I'm just trying to get answers
There might be some in this wiki (Found through other means than an actual DOCUMENTATION LINK!)

"It is worth mentioning that during the adoption period of a new system, a substantial portion of Second Life Residents view the world through third party viewers and mobile viewer solutions that will not have updated to be able to see the new content.

Anyone viewing a PBR Material on a viewer that cannot display it will see the “underlying” non-PBR texture.

By default, this is a pine box or a completely blank texture.

Those who wish their content to be viewable by as many people as possible, might consider creating a Diffuse texture ( with baked lighting, the kind that is easily generated with tools like Substance Painter's “Baked Lighting Filter” ) and applying it as a regular texture to the object they’re placing the PBR material on, prior to applying the PBR material. While this is an extra step in content creation, and complicates things somewhat, if you wish for your content to be appreciated by all, it’s worth considering adding this extra step to your workflow.

People designing PBR materials for distribution and sale might also consider offering a “Diffuse Only fallback” texture to accompany the PBR material specifically for people who cannot see the PBR content. "

- PBR Stand-In Textures and Outdated Viewers

Soo... basically do what everyone else but me have done for the last 15 years? Use a baked diffuse image in the 'legacy' slot now?

So what's all the talk of having BP sets (which most don't use anyway!) as a backup? I'd be okay with diffuse.

Sorry, I hate this back and forth... I'm wondering if I will update existing stuff or just delete everything and start from scratch (as most of the base meshes and texturees could be updated anyway with new skills, etc)

The current stance seems to be: PBR + Backup 'Baked Lighting and AO" Diffuse

Edited July 11 by Codex Alpha
I dunno anymore, frankly

[Sid Nagy]

The use of PBR should be an effect not an essential for a product IMHO.
If something looks good, it looks good no matter how the effect is created.
As always, when in doubt a demo is your best friend.

[RohanaRaven Zerbino]

So far, and as far as I am aware, new features haven't erased the existence of previous ones. If I understand you correctly, are you saying that the entire history of SL textures will simply... vanish? Somehow that doesn't sound right to me.

[Chic Aeon]

8 minutes ago, RohanaRaven Zerbino said:

So far, and as far as I am aware, new features haven't erased the existence of previous ones. If I understand you correctly, are you saying that the entire history of SL textures will simply... vanish? Somehow that doesn't sound right to me.

Just like we still have sculpties ad tiny textures -- old items still work fine under PBR.  have a whole topic thread on PBR from the time it first appeared on the grid. MANY old items look better under the new server engine (EEP settings have a huge influence).

Some creators will "update" old things and others will not, but textures won't disappear. LL usually does a good job of keeping old content viable and usable. There would be a HUGE outcry if that were not the case.  I SUSPECT judging from how many clothing creators have NOT updated their LARA product to LARAX  that a lot of "old items" will remain as is.  Only time will let us know that answer. 

Some folks will love PBR and others won't be able to use it and still use SL.  So things will be mxed for awhile and hopefully the devs will improve the engine over time.  Textures HAVE mysteriously from SL (I have had a handful of them disappear from the server (not just my inventory) over the years but those were database issues and not planned :D.

[Love Zhaoying]

"The Purge" happened, and I missed it?

[Blush Bravin]

I'm really not creating much these days, but any new items I make will use PBR textures and I will not be making a separate set of BP textures to add to the objects before applying PBR mats. I will clearly state on my vendors though that the products use PBR ONLY so customers will not be caught by surprise.

I seriously doubt that I will be updating any of my current products to PBR. The old stuff still works. The new stuff will be fine to anyone using a PBR enabled viewer, which will be all viewers in the not too distant future. I'm just not going to spend time on something that will be changing so soon. It's like everything else that has progressed. 

As far as a purge, I don't see that happening either. I still have old prim builds from Scarlet Creative, I still have some of the old pre-mesh body system clothes Maitreya used to sell, I wear old Analog Dog flexi hair fairly often, and flexi skirts I made a decade ago. They all still work. I do purge stuff but it has more to do with if I still like the product or not. I don't toss things just because things have changed. I toss them because they are no longer useful to me.

Edited July 12 by Blush Bravin

[Codex Alpha]

On 7/11/2024 at 10:11 AM, RohanaRaven Zerbino said:

So far, and as far as I am aware, new features haven't erased the existence of previous ones. If I understand you correctly, are you saying that the entire history of SL textures will simply... vanish? Somehow that doesn't sound right to me.

I don't think I said that. It will be more whether a PBR-only viewer will allow to see old materials. Right now the 'recommendation' is to move to PBR with a diffuse baked backup, but who knows how long that will be. If there is this kind of backup for say the next year or so - then it would be trivial to add a 'turn pbr off' for those who want to squeeze another year out looking at the most common texture most products have right now. Once I found out and move to BP workflow, I only got complaints because so many had ALM turned off anyway.
The spirit of the post was more to 'effectively purging' a lot of old items that dont abide with new standards - or remain for sale (which benefits LL) but users are buying broken stuff. Hence the use of 'defacto' in the title.

Edited July 12 by Codex Alpha

[Sid Nagy]

Just out of curiosity, why on earth would LL come with a PBR-only viewer?
There never came a mesh-only viewer or a materials-only viewer, so....  very theoretical. Just like what if SL closes its gates tomorrow?

[Love Zhaoying]

44 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Just out of curiosity, why on earth would LL come with a PBR-only viewer?

Exactly, it's as if people are just making things up at this point.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

7 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

I don't think I said that. It will be more whether a PBR-only viewer will allow to see old materials. Right now the 'recommendation' is to move to PBR with a diffuse baked backup, but who knows how long that will be. If there is this kind of backup for say the next year or so - then it would be trivial to add a 'turn pbr off' for those who want to squeeze another year out looking at the most common texture most products have right now. Once I found out and move to BP workflow, I only got complaints because so many had ALM turned off anyway.
The spirit of the post was more to 'effectively purging' a lot of old items that dont abide with new standards - or remain for sale (which benefits LL) but users are buying broken stuff. Hence the use of 'defacto' in the title.

A "PBR only" viewer can still display old content, and that's not going to change.

The reason why LL recommends creators to only work in PBR is because PBR will be the standard going forward, enabling all of us creators to make modern and industry-standard content.

The old BP material system won't be getting new features, but it will be maintained enough to not break old content as LL has always done.

[RohanaRaven Zerbino]

On 7/12/2024 at 11:32 PM, Codex Alpha said:

I don't think I said that. It will be more whether a PBR-only viewer will allow to see old materials. Right now the 'recommendation' is to move to PBR with a diffuse baked backup, but who knows how long that will be. If there is this kind of backup for say the next year or so - then it would be trivial to add a 'turn pbr off' for those who want to squeeze another year out looking at the most common texture most products have right now. Once I found out and move to BP workflow, I only got complaints because so many had ALM turned off anyway.
The spirit of the post was more to 'effectively purging' a lot of old items that dont abide with new standards - or remain for sale (which benefits LL) but users are buying broken stuff. Hence the use of 'defacto' in the title.

Thank you for the clarification.

Any new change requires adjustments on both sides, creators and users. Part of a creator's job is to educate users about new features. Bento has been around for years, and I still have to explain its basic principles to some users. Prepare some form of a ready-made answer. A notecard is best, which you can place in your in-world shop if you have one, and keep one in your inventory to pass on to users. Include a short explanation about the change and a step-by-step guide on what changes they need to make to enjoy the new feature.

The traditional workflow with any new feature for creators would be to create new items using the feature, update existing items when possible or when it's worth the effort, and mark new items with the new feature.

LL's new features are additions to whatever exists in the area in question, so the old content can remain on the grid, and nothing will be broken. You can continue creating with the new feature or not, and update old items when and if you find it convenient. In the end, it is a creator's business decision, as more and more people will ask for items with whatever new feature there is, making it less of a creative decision.

Keep in mind that we had the same fuss when mesh was introduced, and still, 10+ years later, sculpts are still around.

[Flea Yatsenko]

There is a lot of worry about nothing. People were buying sculpties from my long after mesh came out. I even sold a sculpty a week or so ago. I tried delisting them because they are outdated, and I got IMs asking what happened to them. Years from now there are people who will just prefer baked lighting builds. It's just how SL users are.

[Polenth Yue]

A lot of people have no idea how the cake is baked. They just like the cake. So the market will still be there for older items (and they'll display fine in most cases). The people who do understand will move over to PBR, but it isn't a rush. We've seen with previous updates that it can take a year or two to really settle in.

[Chic Aeon]

Probably good to note that not everyone LIKES the look of PBR LOL   But otherwise I agree with the post above me. 

[Reid Parkin]

On 7/14/2024 at 5:32 PM, RohanaRaven Zerbino said:

LL's new features are additions to whatever exists in the area in question, so the old content can remain on the grid, and nothing will be broken

There is this 

https://feedback.secondlife.com/bug-reports/p/pbr-client-opacity-issue-on-textures-with-alpha-channel-windows

I'm not sure how many items will be affected, but it is a concern. Especially for items listed on MP that now won't match the images. It seems to be alpha blending on light or dark items that are impacted. LL says a slight variation but I see a huge change in opacity. I call this broken.

[Ninatchka Markova]

I'm wondeering how to create and manipulate texturing of a prim with PBR...there is no up or down or increase or decrease the texture buttons - just rotate - what is this...how can i add my own texture and manipulate - please help?

[Polenth Yue]

On 7/19/2024 at 10:46 PM, Ninatchka Markova said:

I'm wondeering how to create and manipulate texturing of a prim with PBR...there is no up or down or increase or decrease the texture buttons - just rotate - what is this...how can i add my own texture and manipulate - please help?

You have to edit the PBR material to swap out the textures and for some features (like transparency/alpha). If you want to change the texture repeats, you do that in the texture tab after the PBR material is applied (it's the scale variable).

[Prokofy Neva]

On 7/11/2024 at 11:51 AM, Codex Alpha said:

An interesting byproduct of these changes to PBR, the intended requirement to only allow people to see PBR content, is that all content that is not marked as such, or not updated will be OBSOLETE.

One just wonders too how LL will handle all the rush of complaints, confusion, people claiming they were 'ripped off' by listings that no longer work in PBR viewers.

Right now, there is no way to search by "PBR-Enabled", or at least with 'legacy' content. If that legacy content can no longer be seen or used, then the MP will effectively see a massive purge of old content.

I'm just trying to get answers
There might be some in this wiki (Found through other means than an actual DOCUMENTATION LINK!)

"It is worth mentioning that during the adoption period of a new system, a substantial portion of Second Life Residents view the world through third party viewers and mobile viewer solutions that will not have updated to be able to see the new content.

Anyone viewing a PBR Material on a viewer that cannot display it will see the “underlying” non-PBR texture.

By default, this is a pine box or a completely blank texture.

Those who wish their content to be viewable by as many people as possible, might consider creating a Diffuse texture ( with baked lighting, the kind that is easily generated with tools like Substance Painter's “Baked Lighting Filter” ) and applying it as a regular texture to the object they’re placing the PBR material on, prior to applying the PBR material. While this is an extra step in content creation, and complicates things somewhat, if you wish for your content to be appreciated by all, it’s worth considering adding this extra step to your workflow.

People designing PBR materials for distribution and sale might also consider offering a “Diffuse Only fallback” texture to accompany the PBR material specifically for people who cannot see the PBR content. "

- PBR Stand-In Textures and Outdated Viewers

Soo... basically do what everyone else but me have done for the last 15 years? Use a baked diffuse image in the 'legacy' slot now?

So what's all the talk of having BP sets (which most don't use anyway!) as a backup? I'd be okay with diffuse.

Sorry, I hate this back and forth... I'm wondering if I will update existing stuff or just delete everything and start from scratch (as most of the base meshes and texturees could be updated anyway with new skills, etc)

The current stance seems to be: PBR + Backup 'Baked Lighting and AO" Diffuse

I hope they don't envision a viewer that makes all old content that was NOT in PBR now viewable only as a plywood box or white mesh surface, even if it was textured.

I could understand if it did this with all NEW materials made with PBR. In fact, this is already happening. I don't know what the factors were that went into first PBR items not looking different unless you had the newer viewers, and this week, where new PBR items now appear as white, untextured meshes. 

For example, if you buy a PBR chair, as I did, and it is meant to be textured with a HUD, it will seem as if the HUD isn't working. Fortunately, you can then texture that seemingly white mesh item with your own old, non-PBR textures. But of course, to anyone coming to your home with a PBR-enabled viewer, these furniture items might look like kasha -- a mash-up of various textures or something. I'm not sure. My first tests of PBR seemed to indicate that you can't get that PBR texture off, it's like a gluey substance that sticks.

But I was able to re-texture some PBR DaD chairs I bought -- and as long as I'm the only one in my house with only myself to please, then it will be fine.

Here's how an item looks that is in fact orange and black -- the candles appear white on my viewer which is not PBR enabled. I bought them anyway and set them aside for the day I might try installing a PBR viewer -- or when I have the time to retexture themselves.

[Froukje Hoorenbeek]

If creators want their items to look correct in both PBR and old viewers, they must make separate textures for both systems, effectively doubling their workload. Therefore some creators choose to make only PBR textures and forget about the old textures. This makes their items look white to users with non-PBR viewers, and that is what you see in the picture.  This doesn’t mean all old content will turn white; it only affects new PBR items without extra 'old' textures added, viewed in old viewers. 

[Flea Yatsenko]

I had a question about preserving old content. I have been going through listings and trying to upgrade the best performing ones to PBR. But I do not want to purge and make the old versions available. I was going to add PBR to the existing products, but some of them are quite old, like over 10 years. I've been going through and updating UVs, physics, all sorts of stuff. I want to give the free update to previous customers. I also want to make sure the old version doesn't disappear. I also am concerned I'm updating products that are 10 years old and the listing age is going to harm me, even though they have good reviews.

I'm not sure what to do, but giving people a free upgrade to PBR has to happen and so does not deleting the old versions. I'm not sure if it's better to make new listings or use the old ones, even if they are really old.

[Froukje Hoorenbeek]

I regularly send updates to my customers, with new features and recently with added PBR textures. While it's a lot of work, I believe it pays off in the long run by building customer trust. I don't make new listings for updates, but explain the new features on the listing. For completely new designs, including new scripting and animations, I go for a new listing. 

As long as you don't alter the old textures and only add the new ones, customers using older viewers will still see the original textures.