LL has sucked all the fun out of it.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, brodiac90 said:

I have some experience with security tools and let me just say, they can be extremely expensive to employ. The higher the quality, the longer you want to monitor for, the amount you want to monitor, it all adds to the cost and that cost grows exponentially whichever factor you increase. 

I'm sure they have chat and IM logs and that these are stored... somewhere.... and that someone could look through them if it was deemed necessary ... but to suggest that LL are actively monitoring everything we say and do in real time is just farfetched. They can barely keep on top of AR reports and you think they have the capability to monitor everyone to that extent? 

AI does the real time monitoring. A Linden just has to respond to the flags

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

The purpose of the thread I started was NOT to imply that LL had not set clear enough standards for everyone with good intent to stay within acceptable parameters. What my thread shows is that residents have widely differing views on what indicates an avatar's perceived age. The thread is useful if you are unsure how others perceive you if you are getting kicked from clubs or regions. The responsibility for making sure your avatar appears as an adult is on the resident and not LL to amend their rules, IMO.

FYI, I was looking up logical fallacies yesterday, and her saying that your thread pointed out 'X', but it was about 'Y', was an example of the "Strawman"!

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 hours ago, stlshayne said:

I don't have any images of nude children on my computer or elsewhere, so that doesn't pertain to me. If that is a concern of yours, though, Windows Copilot can be disabled. 

 

The only place the knowledge base mentions "proactive moderation" goes as follows: 

 I really don't get the implication that they are sweeping IMs through that, but you do you, and I look forward to your thread about them screen-recording. 

 

Could be something to bring up in the community meetings the Lindens hold, instead of a thread that goes nowhere, as us lay users, evidently and clearly, do not have the answers you seek. 

 

You can disable your AI helper, but dont think it wont still be operating in the background watching, collecting, reporting. 

[stlshayne]

7 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

AI does the real time monitoring. A Linden just has to respond to the flags

No offense to LL, but where is this windfall you think they suddenly came into? All this conspiracy talk, I worry next you're going to tell us you're anti-vax...

Edited June 7 by stlshayne

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The police state might weigh heavily on some residents minds, and they might wonder why they are even here any more.

They're not the only ones wondering that...

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

We're not you I guess. Some of us don't mind pointing out the questions and ambiguities new policies or even updated ones produce.

The proactive monitoring brings up the question again of how far back they will go as I've asked before. Is there a statute of limitations? Do they still only keep a 2 week log history of IM's they can proactively scan with AI software?

Does one incriminate themselves with Governance by what they discuss in the forums? Do the forum mods run to the relevant SL department to tattle on a resident who shared something in a post that might incriminate themselves in regards to some point of the ToS? Plenty of people who are posting here do so against the community guidelines of the forum and I don't see them disappearing and they are often the top posters in a thread.

If you watched the video I posted, LL has said they will not be telling people exactly what type of monitoring they will be doing.  Why would they?  So people can find ways to get around it? 

Just as inworld, those of us who do something against the community guidelines in the forum get a warning or a temp ban.  That's how it has always been.  I know when I've said something that might be deleted or get me a hand slap.  If I choose to post it anyway, that's on me.  Yep, sometimes the rules can be interpreted differently by different mods.  Nothing new there either.  You have no idea who has gotten a hand slap or temp ban from the forums either.  

You keep asking for a more defined set of guidelines.  You're not going to get that either.  They've already said as much.  

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, brodiac90 said:

I have some experience with security tools and let me just say, they can be extremely expensive to employ. The higher the quality, the longer you want to monitor for, the amount you want to monitor, it all adds to the cost and that cost grows exponentially whichever factor you increase. 

I'm sure they have chat and IM logs and that these are stored... somewhere.... and that someone could look through them if it was deemed necessary ... but to suggest that LL are actively monitoring everything we say and do in real time is just farfetched. They can barely keep on top of AR reports and you think they have the capability to monitor everyone to that extent? 

Then you tell me, how was LL able to determine that a couple, on two different sims, one adult, one displaying as a child got into some sexy talk and both had their accounts banned, if they were not monitored in real time and a Linden checked to see that one was a child

Ask @Coffee Pancake for the full details

[Arielle Popstar]

11 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

The purpose of the thread I started was NOT to imply that LL had not set clear enough standards for everyone with good intent to stay within acceptable parameters. What my thread shows is that residents have widely differing views on what indicates an avatar's perceived age. The thread is useful if you are unsure how others perceive you if you are getting kicked from clubs or regions. The responsibility for making sure your avatar appears as an adult is on the resident and not LL to amend their rules, IMO.

Yes exactly and from that it follows that without clear guidelines or some sort of stated objective, opinions are all over the place. Those in the Governance department would also have varying opinions and they hold the ban hammers that can separate one from the avatar investments. Will applying a bandaid be cause for being labelled a child avatar? There are those in this thread who seem to think it is a justification for filing an AR. How many other fashions and looks fall under some peoples idea of what constitutes an immature or childlike image?

Edited June 7 by Arielle Popstar
clean up

[Alwin Alcott]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Then you tell me, how was LL able to determine that a couple, on two different sims, one adult, one displaying as a child got into some sexy talk and both had their accounts banned, if they were not monitored in real time and a Linden checked to see that one was a child

Ask .. for the full details

hearsay, gossiptalk, hearsay ... not facts.

[stlshayne]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

If you watched the video I posted, LL has said they will not be telling people exactly what type of monitoring they will be doing.  Why would they?  So people can find ways to get around it? 

Just as inworld, those of us who do something against the community guidelines in the forum get a warning or a temp ban.  That's how it has always been.  I know when I've said something that might be deleted or get me a hand slap.  If I choose to post it anyway, that's on me.  Yep, sometimes the rules can be interpreted differently by different mods.  Nothing new there either.  You have no idea who has gotten a hand slap or temp ban from the forums either.  

You keep asking for a more defined set of guidelines.  You're not going to get that either.  They've already said as much.  

 

Could not agree more. If your rules are too rigidly outlined, you not only get people who try to skirt them too a tee, but you get people who get unfairly caught up in them. The "spirit of the rule" is often the way to go.

 

What do people want?

Pigtails? Underage.
Under this height? Underage.

Too much pastele? Underage.

You can only check 3 boxes from this list, any more -  underage.

 

Naw, just don't be dumb about it. 

Edited June 7 by stlshayne

[BilliJo Aldrin]

8 minutes ago, stlshayne said:

No offense to LL, but where is this windfall you think they suddenly came into? All this conspiracy talk, I worry next you're going to tell us you're anti-vax...

we can’t talk about rl stuff 😂

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

hearsay, gossiptalk, hearsay ... not facts.

are you calling @Coffee Pancake a liar?

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Then you tell me, how was LL able to determine that a couple, on two different sims, one adult, one displaying as a child got into some sexy talk and both had their accounts banned, if they were not monitored in real time and a Linden checked to see that one was a child

Ask @Coffee Pancake for the full details

Begging the Question: "In modern usage, it has come to refer to an argument in which the premises assume the conclusion without supporting it. This makes it an example of circular reasoning."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, stlshayne said:

Could not agree more. If your rules are too rigidly outlined, you not only get people who try to skirt them too a tee, but you get people who get unfairly caught up in them. The "spirit of the rule" is often the way to go.

 

What do people want?

Pigtails? Underage.
Under this height? Underage.

Too must pastele? Underage.

You can only check 3 boxes from this list, anymore more - underage.

 

Naw, just don't be dumb about it. 

hey knock it off, I LOVE pastels 😁

 

[Blush Bravin]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There are those in this thread who seem to think it is a justification for filing an AR. How many other fashions and looks fall under some peoples idea of what constitutes an immature or childlike image?

Having someone file an AR against you does not necessarily mean you will get a ban. The lab has said over and over again that there are many aspects to the criteria used to determine the outcome. 

But if you are consistently being questioned about your age by other residents then you SHOULD make adjustments to the appearance of your avatar. I don't think the rules are so ambiguous unless you are trying to walk a extremely fine line between adult/child. 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

A couple things.

LL is actually late to the game on "proactive moderation." Big companies in the social/gaming spaces (Riot, Ubisoft, Twitter, FB, etc.) have already been playing around with AI content moderation for years. League of Legends had it (no idea if they still do), social platforms, Twitter invested a lot of money into it, etc.

AI content moderation sucks and doesn't work as well as you'd think. It's expensive and takes a lot of training (especially on nuance, cultural references, regional slang, sentiment analysis, reclaimed speech, sarcasm/jokes, etc.), otherwise it's pretty much useless. It also needs training in numerous languages, there are a host of privacy and safety/security concerns, it's got biases that may need to be worked out, etc.

It still takes a lot of human interaction and management, so it's not entirely hands-off. They'll need the staff for that.

It might get to a point where it's much better at these things in the future, but for now, it's not the best at it. LL may not even opt to go that route for all we know.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

are you calling @Coffee Pancake a liar?

She only has information someone else told her so that's hearsay.  Apparently, no one she's ever talked to has admitted doing anything wrong before they got banned.  Big surprise!  The couple who got banned may have been reported earlier in the week.  They may have been using child avatars while RPing SLex in chat.   The point is, we (nor Coffee) know exactly what went on and we never will.  People do lie.  No one wants to admit to doing something against the ToS.  I'm sure you wouldn't.

[stlshayne]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

She only has information someone else told her so that's hearsay.  Apparently, no one she's ever talked to has admitted doing anything wrong before they got banned.  Big surprise!  The couple who got banned may have been reported earlier in the week.  They may have been using child avatars while RPing SLex in chat.   The point is, we (nor Coffee) know exactly what went on and we never will.  People do lie.  No one wants to admit to doing something against the ToS.  I'm sure you wouldn't.

I also like that we have this one "example" of what's clearly an epidemic. 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

Having someone file an AR against you does not necessarily mean you will get a ban. The lab has said over and over again that there are many aspects to the criteria used to determine the outcome. 

But if you are consistently being questioned about your age by other residents then you SHOULD make adjustments to the appearance of your avatar. I don't think the rules are so ambiguous unless you are trying to walk a extremely fine line between adult/child. 

the fine line is NOT between adult and child, everyone knows what a child is, the fine line is between adult and teenager, that is the fine line, that is the problem. 

And please, don’t say teenagers are children, we are talking about appearances, not real age.

If she looks like she COULD be 14, that alao means she looks like she COULD be 18.

And you WILL find people being banned over COULD bes

[Ceka Cianci]

17 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

If you watched the video I posted, LL has said they will not be telling people exactly what type of monitoring they will be doing.  Why would they?  So people can find ways to get around it? 

Just as inworld, those of us who do something against the community guidelines in the forum get a warning or a temp ban.  That's how it has always been.  I know when I've said something that might be deleted or get me a hand slap.  If I choose to post it anyway, that's on me.  Yep, sometimes the rules can be interpreted differently by different mods.  Nothing new there either.  You have no idea who has gotten a hand slap or temp ban from the forums either.  

You keep asking for a more defined set of guidelines.  You're not going to get that either.  They've already said as much.  

 

I can't wait for the viral LL videos, where they have the criminal stings..  hehehe

Like the one where the cops had sent all these people that were criminals with warrants, a notice that they won free super bowl tickets.. Then just grabbed them as they each showed up..

Edited June 7 by Ceka Cianci

[Alwin Alcott]

7 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

are you calling xxxx a liar?

let me check what i said .....

... i don't see what you try to let me say, so i take that as a no for now.
But for sure a very nasty and vile accusation.
Tagging people to let the discussion explode isnt really nice either.

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

If you watched the video I posted, LL has said they will not be telling people exactly what type of monitoring they will be doing.  Why would they?  So people can find ways to get around it?   

No, so people understand what the limits are and not inadvertently step over them. What is it with you and some Lindens that believe residents are all looking for ways around the rules? The actions of a few is being applied to all? Shows a very basic distrust of 90% of the population that prefers to know what the rules are so they can abide by them.

Quote

Just as inworld, those of us who do something against the community guidelines in the forum get a warning or a temp ban.  That's how it has always been.  I know when I've said something that might be deleted or get me a hand slap.  If I choose to post it anyway, that's on me.  Yep, sometimes the rules can be interpreted differently by different mods.  Nothing new there either.  You have no idea who has gotten a hand slap or temp ban from the forums either.  

It can appear somewhat haphazard at times especially for some but then the Forum isn't really a model of proactive monitoring and seems more dependent on one or two forumites reporting posts they personally don't like.

 

Quote

You keep asking for a more defined set of guidelines.  You're not going to get that either.  They've already said as much.  

Probably not but it does help to point out to some ultra conservative members that they may be taking their opinions of what a child avatar is too far. Not naming any names but I have a couple in mind.

There is also the hope that the Lindens will be a little more specific in the FaQ as they already have been on a couple occasions, so you're incorrect that they haven't been more definitive on the guidelines.

[stlshayne]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I can't wait for the viral LL videos, where they have the criminal stings..  hehehe

Like the one where they had sent all these people that were criminals, a notice that they won free super bowl tickets.. Then just grabbed them as they each showed up..

Chris Hanson's avatar be like "why don't you right click and have a seat over there?"

[Blush Bravin]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

the fine line is NOT between adult and child, everyone knows what a child is, the fine line is between adult and teenager, that is the fine line, that is the problem. 

And please, don’t say teenagers are children, we are talking about appearances, not real age.

If she looks like she COULD be 14, that alao means she looks like she COULD be 18.

And you WILL find people being banned over COULD bes

I'm not saying teenagers are children. The law says teenagers are children. As a survivor of sexual abuse as a very young teenager .. .don't tell me that at the age of 14 I was not still a child. STOP! This argument is disgusting!

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I can't wait for the viral LL videos, where they have the criminal stings..  hehehe

Like the one where the cops had sent all these people that were criminals with warrants, a notice that they won free super bowl tickets.. Then just grabbed them as they each showed up..

You set up a sting where you get a child avatar iming random guys asking if they want some underage fun, then ban every guy that shows up 😂