LL's new Age Verification procedure

[Darrius Gothly]

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Void Singer wrote:

and 4 years ago there were no plans... because at that time, they didn't have enough control of content to sell the idea.

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Hmmm .. ponder ponder ... Void?

I'm gonna agree/disagree with you on this one. I totally accept that four years ago the Lab's "Vision" was to keep the two disparate Grids completely segregated. I get the sense, and this isn't based on any inside knowledge .. just my own "gut", that in the beginning the folks at the Lab were not only pretty liberal about Adult Content but enjoyed it a lot too. But knowing that their tastes (and the "atmosphere" of Second Life) could be pretty coarse, they set about erecting big fat hard-to-scale walls between the "Good" stuff and the "Fun" stuff.

But then the money folks came in, the suits came too, the starched collars and sticks up the bum in accompaniment .. and the "this stuff is FUN" attitude got plastered over with a whole truckload of "Responsible (and wealthy) people don't engage in such things." So before long it became necessary to push the Adult Content further and further away. Then just to prove that Second Life was really "okay for the young'uns" (and because the expense of maintaining two separate grids got unsupportable) they decided to merge the two.

As much as I absolutely DETEST the wholesale destruction and dysfunction they have laid on Merchants and the business/content creation community in general, I get the feeling their motivations came more from a need to wash the dirt off their face and less a desire (or need) to get it under their personal control.

I think this more laissez faire approach to Age Verification and the distinction between Adult and non-Adult Content will benefit us Adults in the long run. If we can get them to apply the same "you promise this is not adult" approach to such things like that gawd-awful word filter in Marketplace then a big bunch of the useless (and paranoid) roadblocks they've been throwing in our paths will vanish and bother us no more.

[Void Singer]

with little variation I agree... bad press via a certain disingenuous congreesman was the first impetus for the "cleanup"... unfortunately it was reactionary and marketing driven, so rushed.... if they had an eye on teen integration they would have segregated G.

once they had that segregated they had to clean up the associated market places, and once that was done integration started to make sense, especially fiscally.

there were always people that saw integration as a good thing... it just wasn't feasible at the time, but the market and press actually drove it forward. of course if they'd had the foresight to do it sensibly from the begining there'd be less problems now.

[Darrius Gothly]

Yup ... as with most things .. they need to internalize one basic habit ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

T H E Y . M U S T . P L A N . A H E A D . . .

[Ceka Cianci]

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Anaiya Arnold wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

it's not an open door policy as far as the grid..they are only open to G..not the whole grid..G is only part of the grid..

LL still needed to make sure everything was separated before they could make a move like they did..that under aged would still have to lie or cheat to enter those areas they are not allowed..

Which all seems rather irrelevant if the point is to prevent them from accessing adult content, since G rated land conjoins M rated land and one can stand in G rated land and not only see content in moderate land, but interact with it, including vendors selling content teens are not supposed to have...

Teens do not need to tell a single lie to buy non-G rated content from a vendor situated on an M-rated parcel that conjoins a G-rated parcel.

Another hot mess brought to you by the fine folks at the Lab.

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how are they accessing adult content from a moderate sim? adult content is not allowed in moderate sims..moderate content is..if they go camming in places and buying content that is not allowed on g rated land and rezz it they can get banned for it..

you are thinking that LL is their baby sitter..it is not their job to stop them..they have rules to follow..if they start doing things they are not allowed to do and get caught..there is no teen grid to save them anymore..

they are responsible for their own actions..if they go buying a **bleep** and rezzing it..it's not the store owners doing or LL's..it's the one rezzing it..

if someone finds a loophole it doesn't mean that  it makes it ok for them to use it..

let them get caught with it in their inventory...

LL and the 18+ users are not the ones that need to be walking on egg shells..the ones with the most restricitons are the ones that need to make sure they watch what they are doing and rezzing..

 

 

[Kyle Steig]

So, now that LL has finally decided to get a clue. What about all of us who spent money and countless hours trying to keep our SL lives and business afloat during the ghetto-ization? What about the lost land quality and value? What about our personal info on file we might want purged? What about how we were treated when we tried then to get them to realize that there was a lot more than 2-4% adult content and that they risked THEIR business too? What about  committing, now, from now on to listening to their community?

Here's what I'd demand:

- Get confirmation for us that our records have been purged from Aristotle.

Here's what I would sincerely appreciate:

-  Review the land transfers we had to make and give those of us forced to move a tier adjustment.

 - Say "Thank you for staying despite our li'l fuax pas"

-  Kyle

[Innula Zenovka]

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Kyle Steig wrote:

Here's what I'd demand:

- Get confirmation for us that our records have been purged from Aristotle.

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But LL and Aristotle always said that our data wasn't retained in the first place.      What sort of confirmation would you accept that Aristotle have purged data they say they haven't got because they never recorded it?

[Suella Ember]

Heard about this yesterday and, as I said to a friend at the time, it's guaranteed to stir up some "So, now there is nothing to stop minors accessing adult content" drama.

Fact of the matter is though it's not going to make any difference at all. As others have said here, the new process is no better or worse than the previous aristotle verification system, or having CC info on file. Both those previous methods were flakey at best and did little to stop someone providing fake information if they wanted to.

There is no sure fire way of verifying age over the internet without seeing official documentation in person. It's a problem faced by various internet sites every day and most know that the best they can do is to offer a  "Confirm you are over 18" disclaimer. Trying to engineer complex verification processes above that are just a waste of resources as they can be easily cicumvented with false information.

LL have set the grounds over the last couple of years for ensuring that, to the best of their ability, a minor can only access adult content if they lie, while at the same time 16-17 year olds can enjoy SL in a PG manner. It took them a while to get everything right, but I personally think they do have it as close to 'right' as is feasible now (separated adult content, 16 and 17 year olds restricted to PG and a straightforward age 'verification' process). They need to stay vigilant, but they are doing the best they can within the bounds of the available technology to ensure a fiar balance between and inclusive SL and a safe SL.

The key factor now becomes proper enforcement after the fact. Which means where a claim of underage comes up LL need to swiftly and fairly process an investigation and receipt of official documentation where necessary; to swiftly and fairly deal with offendors who lie about their age and (I think this part is critical) to swiftly and fairly deal with anyone who uses the AR system to file a ton of false griefer AR's against people claiming they are underage without any proof whatsoever.

[Ciaran Laval]

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Void Singer wrote:

and 4 years ago there were no plans... because at that time, they didn't have enough control of content to sell the idea.

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The line they regularly used was "There are no immediate plans", they had plans to allow the minors in officially.

[Deltango Vale]

"that was blondins response when it wasn't in the plans yet."

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Blodin's comments were in March 2009. The official announcement was in August 2010. A change as significant as merging the grids requires at least a year's planning. Moreover, a possible grid merger was a constant worry for residents. Linden Lab was long-aware of those concerns. It was a major strategy and policy issue. Residents repeatedly requested clarification. Linden Lab repeatedly said there would be no merger.

The 'adult' policy was perhaps the single most confusing, divisive and counterproductive policy Linden Lab ever devised (and LL has a long history of confusing, divisive and unproductive policies). In the midst of the uproar over the 'adult' policy, residents again asked for clarification over a potential grid merger - and Linden Lab again denied any such strategy. The brief section I quoted demonstrates absolute frustration on all sides. No doubt, Blondin is furious to have been put in such a position. I'm not surprised so many staff and resident subsequently abandoned Linden Lab and Second Life.

[Kyle Steig]

Say it again. Clearly and unequivocally where it can be quoted later in the event of a legal action. Demonstrate in that statement that it might actually be true because it is so unmistakably quotable in the event of a legal action.

[Solar Legion]

@Ceka: Actually, Commercial Adult content is not allowed in Mature rated sims. There's nothing preventing a user from going out and buying a sex bed, then placing it in their M rated home.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Kyle Steig wrote:

Say it again. Clearly and unequivocally where it can be quoted later in the event of a legal action. Demonstrate in that statement that it might actually be true because it is so unmistakably quotable in the event of a legal action.

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Something on the lines of 

"Some of you have raised the question whether the age verification vendor we have selected, Aristotle and their Integrity service, is complying with various global privacy laws, which generally pertain to collection, use and storage of personal data. We’ve been assured by them that they are in compliance with all relevant privacy laws. But the most important point here — which we think makes a big difference in evaluating safety and compliance — is that no data is being taken, retained or stored. Rather, an automated check is done at the point of contact, and all data is then purged. Thus, there is no collecting, using, storing, or transferring of your personal information beyond the one-time match. Period. Certainly, you are not being asked to place your information in a database."

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Features/More-on-Age-Verification/ba-p/603022

[Ceka Cianci]

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Deltango Vale wrote:

"that was blondins response when it wasn't in the plans yet."

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Blodin's comments were in March 2009. The official announcement was in August 2010. A change as significant as merging the grids requires at least a year's planning. Moreover, a possible grid merger was a constant worry for residents. Linden Lab was long-aware of those concerns. It was a major strategy and policy issue. Residents repeatedly requested clarification. Linden Lab repeatedly said there would be no merger.

The 'adult' policy was perhaps the single most confusing, divisive and counterproductive policy Linden Lab ever devised (and LL has a long history of confusing, divisive and unproductive policies). In the midst of the uproar over the 'adult' policy, residents again asked for clarification over a potential grid merger - and Linden Lab again denied any such strategy. The brief section I quoted demonstrates absolute frustration on all sides. No doubt, Blondin is furious to have been put in such a position. I'm not surprised so many staff and resident subsequently abandoned Linden Lab and Second Life.

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hehehe ya i am sure i was off in the actual time from when he said to when philip announced it..

a lot had to do with that philip linden interview he did in sl showing back up with him talking about everyone being on the same grid..then some blogs picking up on everything lindens were saying..

people getting upset because one of the lindens mentioned something about the teens actuing more mature than most  people on the grid..

it was just a lot of hype going on..then he gets asked about plans..asll he did was answer straight out no..because it was not something that made their list just yet..

he wasn't in a position to say yes..but he was to say no if there were no actual plans just yet in the works..

ya he was in a crappy spot  LOL and i bet he wished that question never came up..

 

for all we really know is this..they were making the changes to the grid..then realised ..this is a good time to do what we talked about before..that or a few knew what was going on and let the others know later..

i don't think  it's always a cover up..i think sometimes one plan may make something possible for other plans and sometimes it's not seen until later..

ok lets try this change..if it goes well we will add this..if it doesn't we won't..i mean how can anyone say yes to something nobody is sure about?

it's all theory to us anyways..it's here and  really not having the terrible impact that so many were saying it would..thats the important thing..

 

[Carole Franizzi]

 

I totally get that you can't expect what is beyond reason. Expecting LL to somehow set up a system by which it's 100% guaranteed that adults do not inadvertently socialise with kids is unreasonable. It's been said a million times before that the ultimate responsibility for kiddies not dabbling in unsuitable practises and getting involved in unsuitable relationships must lie fundamentally on the shoulders of their parents. Having said that, I suspect few of us would stand by and watch a toddler wander onto a busy road without intervening, simply because “it's not our kid”. It's one of Nature's little tricks – we tend to end up feeling responsible for the young and vulnerable even when they're not our own.

It's also been said a million times that minors have been sneaking in since SL's doors first opened. And without doubt, all over the planet there are kids, whose mothers and fathers are less than on the ball in parenting skills, surfing stuff on the Internet which they really, really shouldn't be seeing. Is it my fault that some stranger's kids see inappropriate stuff which maybe I put out there? No, it isn't, but there's still something not right about all of this.

When kiddies on SL is discussed, talk always ends up being about hypothetical middle-aged men having cyber-nooky with 15 year old girls. Without rehashing that melodramatic old chestnut yet again, it's enough, I think, to ponder whether one would feel comfortable with 13 or 14 year olds viewing erotic artwork which we produced in SL believing that it would only ever be seen by adults. Or say I was a creator of erotic toys or furniture – would I feel totally at ease knowing that some of my customers will be kiddies? Frankly, I wouldn't. Let's say I had a club. Just a night-club – music, dance, a DJ – created with an adult clientele in mind. Nothing smutty – just a place for adults to hang, like the myriad of pubs and clubs which exist all over the world which don't allow kids into. How enjoyable would the experience be if I was aware that many of my clients might be minors dancing and flirting with adults on my property? Speaking personally, I wouldn't be any more at ease with it occurring in SL than in RL.

In RL, as a club-owner, a gallery-owner which has an exhibition of erotic photos or as the creator of erotic “equipment” I have the option of demanding to see I.D. Sure, it could be fake – but I'd also have the option, if not entirely convinced by the baby-face waving a false document at me, to chuck them out anyway. In SL I don't have that option. How can you reasonably pin down an age on the basis of a brief, typed conversation? You can't. How do you distinguish between a 50 year old ESLer and a semi-schooled British15 year old? Sometimes you can't. Gauging maturity by how people type is a very risky business. Sure, repeated conversations over time will give a good idea of the age of a person – not 100% foolproof but I'm fairly certain that I'll ever be unlikely to discover any of my friends in SL were actually 17. But a snap-judgement about age will only sometimes be accurate. I know too many young people in RL who are articulate, witty, bright and well-informed to kid myself that I would be able to spot every single minor I might come into brief contact with in SL.

So what to do? I think all you can reasonably expect is that it's made as difficult as possible for them to get in. I'm not expecting the impossible. Just a compromise between the morally correct and the functionally feasible. And the new age “verification” system is most decidedly not making it difficult for them. In truth, it couldn't be made any more easy for them. And that's wrong.

This isn't Facebook where identities are supposed to be “real” - this is a platform where identities are supposed to be invented, faked, acted out, role-played, masked, where age and gender modification are an intrinsic part of the game, where adults may appear as children and now - if I've understood correctly - thanks to LL, where access to kiddies who will appear as adults has been made oh-so-easy.



[Ceka Cianci]

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Solar Legion wrote:

@Ceka: Actually, 

Commercial

Adult content is not allowed in Mature rated sims. There's nothing preventing a user from going out and buying a sex bed, then placing it in their M rated home.

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a sex bed is not adult content and placing it in a home is not adult  content..having sex in someones home is not adult either..

only when you advertise to everyone you are putting on a show for everyone to see you having sex or getting on search and saying..ok free sex bed for the public to use..come on over. does it change from moderate to adult content..

it's moderate if it's privately used..it is moderate if it is just sitting there in a store..

adult is promotion and public awarness to the sexual acts taking place on it and trying to draw a crowd  from search for traffic with those things on the adult rated listing of how they are used ect..

a sex bed can have two ratings..adult and moderate..but it is never allowed on G

not unless it is disabled..

[Kyle Steig]

A lot like that AND for manually verified accounts like mine and many others and repeated discussing the fact that the Aristotle relationship is apparently over and that, therefore, not even a history that an account was verified will be retained. 

[Kyle Steig]

>>In RL, as a club-owner, a gallery-owner which has an exhibition of erotic photos or as the creator of erotic “equipment” I have the option of demanding to see I.D. Sure, it could be fake – but I'd also have the option, if not entirely convinced by the baby-face waving a false document at me, to chuck them out anyway. <<'

if you feel a need to be surrogate mommy I applaud your values. Nothing stops you from making your land 'group access only' and demanding your own verification as a condition of entry.  I encourage you to do so since it clearly is the surest way for you to know you are keeping to your values. My values are ALSO keeping kids away from porn. I take the approach of insisting they affirm they are of legal age to see it.

 

- Kyle

[Lindal Kidd]

Anyone who believes that a company whose primary business is selling demographic information doesn't retain said information...I have some soon-to-be-beachfront land in Nevada for sale.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Lindal Kidd wrote:

Anyone who believes that a company whose primary business is selling demographic information doesn't retain said information...I have some soon-to-be-beachfront land in Nevada for sale.

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So are you saying, in terms, that Aristotle lied to LL and LL repeated the lie in good faith or that you think they were in it together?

[Void Singer]

actually the data coming through LL to aristotle is useless, since it can't be verified true, so yes I do expect that they don't keep it.

they use public records databases to mine, because they're slightly more reliable

[Gavin Hird]

I think some of you give Blondin less credibility for the adult content policy than what he deserves. The more I saw of him, the more I realized that he was one of the architects behind this policy. So his leaving fits well in with this change in policy –a change I for one welcome.

What prompted the change I suspect has more to do with payment processor issues than Linden Lab suddenly wising up. As far as I know, both Visa and Mastercard forbid using a credit card account as proof of age, which essentially the PIOF part of the adult content policy was. I suspect PayPal might have the same rule. 

Now the open question is what is the need for the 3-tier G,M,A rating any longer? Everyone on the grid will be "adult ready" within a few weeks, and give it a few weeks more, everyone who have an interest, and I suspect that is 85% of the residents, will have verified their age and set the A rating in their preferences. So what remains in search, for all practical purposes, will be G and A. Very few will bother to do M searches only.  My prediction is that we will soon come around 360 deg and end up with only 2 maturity settings again.

 

[TaurenFiller]

I am glad the old age verification system has gone as it did discriminate against the adult by singling them out as a black sheep of the family until they proved otherwise, which can't create a good working relationship and bond of trust with Linden Labs.

I would, however, encourage residents to report anything illegal so the new verification method is kept and therefore reinforces this new level of trust between residents and LL.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

I think some of you give Blondin less credibility for the adult content policy than what he deserves. The more I saw of him, the more I realized that he was one of the architects behind this policy. So his leaving fits well in with this change in policy –a change I for one welcome.

What prompted the change I suspect has more to do with payment processor issues than Linden Lab suddenly wising up. As far as I know, both Visa and Mastercard forbid using a credit card account as proof of age, which essentially the PIOF part of the adult content policy was. I suspect PayPal might have the same rule. 

Now the open question is what is the need for the 3-tier G,M,A rating any longer? Everyone on the grid will be "adult ready" within a few weeks, and give it a few weeks more, everyone who have an interest, and I suspect that is 85% of the residents, will have verified their age and set the A rating in their preferences. So what remains in search, for all practical purposes, will be G and A. Very few will bother to do M searches only.  My prediction is that we will soon come around 360 deg and end up with only 2 maturity settings again.

 

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you didn't need CC info to age verifiy..this change isn't about account verifiy, it's the change to age verification ..you could be age verified without PIOF...

PIOF is only good for some adult places if your birthdate is old enough..

the change probably has more to do with the fact that it sucked and kept out more older valid people than it did the ones entering false information and getting in..

 

As far as ratings being dropped to 2? general and adult..

being that it was a search /commerce move to separeate General, mature and adult businesses..what happens to all those private residents that own sims and mainland parcels that don't sell adult content or even want to, let alone that don't use search for their lands?

for a place that a lot are saying is moving to a type of disney land..that would be kind of backwards to have a G and A rating and cutting out the middle where the residents that  buy and use the things they get from A live..

 

Blondin being behind the adult changes? i'm sure he had some input ..but i doubt he was behind it..

he sure had a hard time explaining it..he probably added more confusion by using the terms adult content and adult actifities with private residents uses than anything..instead of calling it what it was..mature content and mature activities..

A lot of the way that some of the lindens that were sent out to relay the information had worded stuff still has a lot of people confused  today as to what adult content and mature content is..a lot had to do with using the term adult when it wasn't adult anymore..it made the content sound as if the rating never changed on it or that it was specific stuff instead of use and placing..

they fumbled so much so that even when reading the ratings differences   a lot of people still walk away scratching their heads..

none of them ever really came out and said..adult content is not a thing or something solid that can be put in your inventory..

that when you buy adult content and put it in your private home it isn't adult content anymore..not until you decide to put your home in search advertising that content..

 

i was laughing at some of the things said ..i mean it all sounded like this at one point..buying adult content and placing it in your home and then putting that home in search would change that to adult content..LOL

who in the world is gonna catch on with that kind of double talk lol

if it wasn't for some of the residents reading between the lines and getting in the forums and grid to explain what they were trying to say..there would be a hell of a lot more confusion than there is today hehehehe

 

and i'm not saying they were confusing the whole time..but you don't need the whole time..just a few times  to have people glue to those few..

 

 

 

 

[Gavin Hird]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

you didn't need CC info to age verifiy..this change isn't about account verifiy, it's the change to age verification ..you could be age verified without PIOF...

PIOF is only good for some adult places if your birthdate is old enough.. 

 

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 You are obviously confused on that.

With the adult content policy Linden Lab provided two mechanisms to access adult areas and adult content searh.

• One was the age verify method where you had to "prove" your age by submitting documents or document ID numbers to a verification process administered by Aristotle
• The second was to register Payment Info On File, no more questions asked

If you satisfied one of those two criterias, you were able to go to all the Zindra regions, most other adult regions and do adult content search both in-world and later in the marketplace.

This procedure basically bypassed true age verification by equating a credit card account with being adult – a procedure that is in violation of the terms of Visa, MasterCard and possibly PayPal. This was one of the major criticim raised in front of the policy getting in effect.

Some sim and estate owners, in addition, set age verified as a requirement to enter their land, but that is outside the scope of Linden Lab's policy.  This addititonal protection some land owners felt they had is now gone, as in essense anyone can state their DOB to be whatever gives them age verified status, and access to the locked coffers. 

 

Blondin was not the only one behind the adult content policy, but he was more instrumental than most people seem to think. 

 

The reason why we will get full circle and have only two maturity ratings in the near future is that the new agve verify procedure quickly will obliviate M search, but also because Linden Lab has never been able to police their own policy. Because of that M regions are strewn with adult content and businesses selling content that is adult per their policy definition.

This has significantly disadvantaged everyone who moved to Zindra, because they by and large lost their customer base as customers were able to find adult content compelling enough in M regions to not account verify.

Region and business owners in private sims fared a little different as they most of the time managed to retain their original customer base despite having to set the region Adult. Most likely because the sim owners already had a relatively strong brand and customers who did not find alternatives (i.e. Xcite), and therefore got their customer base to go through the hoops of account verifying.  

[Innula Zenovka]

I'm sorry, but I think you're over-interpreting the reasons for changing the age-verification method.    

It had never worked properly, both in the sense that it was all too easy to "verify" your age by providing false details and also in the sense that it was frequently all too difficult to verify your age using your correct details, particularly if you were not a US resident or had changed your address in the last year or so,      Furthermore, no one -- certainly not Blondin on the various occasions we asked him about it -- has ever provided a coherent explanation of why LL needed to do more than ask you to confirm that you're 18 or over,  that you want to access adult content and that it's legal for you so to do wherever you're accessing it from.   That works for most websites whose main business is providing adult content far more graphic than anything you're likely to see in SL, after all.

So, all in all, LL were paying for a system that didn't verify anything, annoyed those customers who were trying to play by rules but couldn't get Aristotle to recognise their credentials and cost LL not only  whatever they paid Aristotle for a broken product but also the management costs of processing people who were having manually to verify because Aristotle couldn't cope, and that wasn't really necessary anyway.   

They've replaced it with the system just about everyone else uses and  that, in practice, is no less reliable or less dependent on peoples' giving truthful replies than was the old one, is far easier for customers to negotiate and doesn't cost LL anything.     Bit of a no-brainer, if you ask me.

I've always thought that account verification and maturity ratings were, and still are, two separate issues that got conflated, and thus confused everyone.      

One of the main drawbacks of buying or renting mainland, after all, was -- still is, to an extent -- that there's very little control over what other uses the sim is put to.    And the fact you have no problem with adult content, and want it in your private residence, doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be too happy if someone opens a newbie-friendly free sex dungeon right next door to you.    Private estate owners are normally alive to that sort of issue, and that's always been one of the attractions of buying or renting privately rather than taking your chances on the Mainland.     Maturity ratings for the Mainland still go some small way to answering that problem.     

Also, though this is maybe less of an issue now than it was then,keyword spamming meant search was a complete mess  two or three years ago.   I used to get irritated when I was trying to search for "hair" or "shoes" and got confronted with lots of listings for orgy rooms (and, contrariwise, when I was looking for orgy rooms and found nothing but shoe shops), and I make adult content, for heaven's sake.   And I'm certainly aware that there's plenty of people in SL who aren't into Adult stuff particularly, and they must have found it even more irritating.    While I still think search has a way to go yet, and that the automatic filtering is a complete mess,  that's an argument for maturity ratings that doesn't have much to do with asking people to "prove" how old they are.

Frankly, I attribute this change in the verification procedure  -- like many other welcome changes over the last year -- to nothing other than the current CEO being far better at running the grid than were his predecessors.   Simple as that.