Who - aside from users - will benefit from the Mobile Ap

[Qie Niangao]

Just now, Aethelwine said:

The thing is though, those text viewers let me pay my Zindra rent. They had a useful function that the new pretty viewer is not going to meet.

That's kinda up to the Zindra landlords, though, isn't it? If the mobile viewer becomes a thing, they can easily arrange for Zindra rent to be payable remotely. (The tricky bit may be keeping Cupertino from getting a 30% cut.)

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

The thing is though, those text viewers let me pay my Zindra rent. They had a useful function that the new pretty viewer is not going to meet.

radegast (text only app) looks to be still available and the apple app store lists speedlight, a supposedly fully functional 3d sl viewer. Id try it but i dont want to pay $4.99 US, plus it doesnt fully render avatars only stick figures 😂

[Rowan Amore]

14 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

radegast (text only app) looks to be still available and the apple app store lists speedlight, a supposedly fully functional 3d sl viewer. Id try it but i dont want to pay $4.99 US, plus it doesnt fully render avatars only stick figures 😂

Speedlight is free.  You can run it through your browser on your phone or tablet instead of the app.  

https://speedlight.io/

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, stlshayne said:

I see some acting like this is a lost cause since the Beta is premium only... did they indicate that this would stay premium exclusive post-beta? Bc if not, I don't see the issue. Premium users usually are more experienced with SL so will be able to pick up on what does and doesn't work, what's needed, etc, so it can get out of Beta faster.

 

Also keeps the beta from being flooded by absolutely everyone while they iron the kinks out. 

 

When Mobile Alpha testing was initially released for "Premium Plus only", it seemed like maybe a logical idea.

As you mentioned, the # testers was automatically limited, since there were relatively few PP users.  And, possibly those users were "more experienced".  

However, I never heard the numbers for "actual testing" and suspect they had far fewer testers than there could have been.  The reason I think so is because I only ever saw very, very few Canny issues logged (and so far as I know, they weren't filtered very much except for "duplicates".  LL sends out emails with the Mobile issues regularly.

Also, consider that there are relatively few Premium Plus users.  Even fewer of them would have been interested in Alpha testing.  So, I suspect the low number of testers may have backfired at least somewhat.

 

Edited May 24 by Love Zhaoying

[Arielle Popstar]

19 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

When Mobile Alpha testing was initially released for "Premium Plus only", it seemed like maybe a logical idea.

Didn't seem logical to me. Would have been better to offer testing to Lumiya users as they already had a basis for comparison and were the ones that promoted the idea of an sl mobile viewer in the first place.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

radegast (text only app) looks to be still available and the apple app store lists speedlight, a supposedly fully functional 3d sl viewer. Id try it but i dont want to pay $4.99 US, plus it doesnt fully render avatars only stick figures 😂

Radegast isn't a text only app. It has a 3d view option also.

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Didn't seem logical to me. Would have been better to offer testing to Lumiya users as they already had a basis for comparison and were the ones that promoted the idea of an sl mobile viewer in the first place.

I would not automatically assume that the current Linden mobile viewer targets anything Lumiya users are interested in doing with a mobile client. Nor Speedlight users. Nor regular desktop viewer users, for that matter. They want a new market. If any of the rest of us can get any utility out of it, that's just gravy.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Radegast isn't a text only app. It has a 3d view option also.

not when i used it, it gave u a location map of the sim you were on, but that was all, but that was a few years ago, maybe it changed.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

I would not automatically assume that the current Linden mobile viewer targets anything Lumiya users are interested in doing with a mobile client. Nor Speedlight users. Nor regular desktop viewer users, for that matter. They want a new market. If any of the rest of us can get any utility out of it, that's just gravy.

so it doesnt do anything anyone might want it to do. So what exactly does it do?

Interesting there is no feedback from the plussies that have tried it.

They must have a nondisclosure agreement with termination of account for violating it 😂

[Katherine Heartsong]

I still do not understand the main use cases for a mobile version of SL; and to be clear, by mobile I mean a phone and not a tablet like an iPad.

One I can clearly see, is simply being able to IM and communicate with your in-world friends, respond to IMs, and be made aware of notices from the groups you follow. Keeping in touch is an ideal use of a mobile device. Another would be some account management.

Some that come to mind that are traditionally associated with a mobile device, such as online shopping, would need a massive overhaul of the UX/UI to be effective in a SL mobile app. The current MP isn't even properly responsive, and most of the common shopping UX patterns you'd expect aren't even implemented (for example, 15 of the same item in various colours, instead of one listing and an option within that to select the colour).

The small screen size would limit enjoyment of many common activities (clubbing, exploring landscaped sims, group activities, even visiting stores would be only a narrow window, etc). Even something like managing inventory and changing clothes will need a full overhaul on a mobile version.

So I'm not clear what the main use is for a mobile version. What makes a user want to use a mobile version besides keeping in touch. What opportunity do LL see versus what we actually do 95% of our time in world in SL?

(I'm not privy to any of the user experience research LL does, or how they gather qualitative and quantitative UX data, but am awfully curious as someone who is a 30 year design veteran, and VP in UX design for a global-sized firm.)

----------

Who will benefit? I'd say anyone who wants to stay in communication in world. Beyond that? Not sure. I can't see it being a massive draw for new SL users given the obvious limitations I've noted. But I have been wrong with my assumptions in the past without data to go on.

Edited May 24 by Katherine Heartsong

[Qie Niangao]

16 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

so it doesnt do anything anyone might want it to do. So what exactly does it do?

Yeah, don't ask me, I'll get to see it the same time the rest of us Premiums do.

I don't know how Apple gates the folks who can try an app without listing it in the store. I assume that's a pretty limited number, or maybe it's just tremendously (legally?) complicated to make sure nobody else gets in. I certainly would assume there are NDAs involved so I would have declined anyway.

Incidentally, I re-listened to that part of Grumpity's mobile info and I think it goes to Premiums as a beta, weeks or months from now, still before listing in the store. But something I read in this thread suggested somebody thinks it will be listed and only work for Premium subscribers. Do we know of an official communication about that somewhere?

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But something I read in this thread suggested somebody thinks it will be listed and only work for Premium subscribers. Do we know of an official communication about that somewhere?

No, last I heard the testing was moved to an "open" Alpha (or Beta?) but still only for "all" Premium Plus users. Still have to jump through flaming hoops to request access, etc. Sorry, confused lion is confused. (I already was a tester so hard to pay attention.)

 

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I don't know how Apple gates the folks who can try an app without listing it in the store. I assume that's a pretty limited number, or maybe it's just tremendously (legally?) complicated to make sure nobody else gets in. I certainly would assume there are NDAs involved so I would have declined anyway.

I bet there's no "gate" beyond the fact users must be part of the TestFlight program (install the TestFlight app, get the app being tested via it, etc.). (Unless there are maximum users for that program, or $$ cost, etc.)

[Codex Alpha]

31 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I still do not understand the main use cases for a mobile version of SL; and to be clear, by mobile I mean a phone and not a tablet like an iPad.

But then you are arguing against a single device, when 'mobile devices' and the optimized apps or software created for them can cover:

• Smartphones
• Tablets
• Laptops
• Mobile Gaming Consoles
• Smart TVs " Source Digital, Inc. and Sansar, Inc. announce what is believed to be the first-ever metaverse experience on smart TVs."

Edited May 24 by Codex Alpha

[Qie Niangao]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

No, last I heard the testing was moved to an "open" Alpha (or Beta?) but still only for "all" Premium Plus users. Still have to jump through flaming hoops to request access, etc. Sorry, confused lion is confused. (I already was a tester so hard to pay attention.)

Yes, that's also my understanding of the current situation, but I was asking a stupider question. Grumpity said (per the transcript) :

Quote

42:41  uh but the reason we're having this conversation about the app stores is because we're getting closer to uh
42:47  getting the app on the App Stores um and our next step is to make
42:53  it available to all of our premium subscribers um so fingers crossed uh
43:00  holding my breath a little bit um but uh can't wait to make some announcements um
43:07  in the next few weeks months um shortly
43:15  soon yeah a lot of questions about that hey when can I get access to mobile obviously it's it's at the premium plus
43:21  right now but you're not we're not able to reveal a sneak peek on a date or anything at this point no sneak peek on
43:27  a date uh because you know I would immediately then violate that

So I read that as:

1. Premium Plus alpha (now)
2. Premium beta (sooner or later)
3. App store listing (later)

but I thought I read somebody to understand #2 and #3 to be the same thing, that it was only intended to target Premium members even when listed in the App stores. I wondered if there could be some other communication I'd missed.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

This was so traumatic to you that you kept it in your head for YEARS, and made an enemy out of me for no reason.

You've been around for years? 

I assumed you were some noob.

Today I learned!

[Katherine Heartsong]

17 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

But then you are arguing against a single device, when 'mobile devices' and the optimized apps or software created for them can cover:

• Smartphones
• Tablets
• Laptops
• Mobile Gaming Consoles
• Smart TVs " Source Digital, Inc. and Sansar, Inc. announce what is believed to be the first-ever metaverse experience on smart TVs."

No, what I'm saying is that various devices have various use cases.

About 15 years ago Luke Wroboski and others started promoting the badly flawed philosophy and idea of designing for "mobile first". The issue with UX is that different devices provide better experiences when you understand what a user expects/wants to do on them, and what the device is best used for and capable of delivering, versus trying to cram a whole desktop app/product experience into a small mobile device.

You have to design a mobile experience understanding that it will—by it's very nature—be used in different ways than a larger screen or input method device is. You can make entire UXs work on a small screen mobile device, but the pain points and flows become much more cumbersome and less efficient and slower (generally) when you do.

My questions are simply ...

1. What is it that LL expects a SL user to do on a mobile device? (I'm not aware that has ever been shared.)
2. What will be necessary and what will/can be lost in a mobile UX?

I'm saying that a mobile SL can compliment your SL experience, but not replace it. It wil do different things and be simplified just by the very nature of the UX on a mobile device. (Again, referring to "mobile" to mean phone in this example.)

Edited May 24 by Katherine Heartsong

[Rowan Amore]

Is the Mobile Grid Client still available?  That was pretty much a messaging app IIRC.  As @Katherine Heartsongmentioned, that would be the only thing I can see mobile being used for in most cases.  I think you could TP also?  Going to have to check that out again.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

7 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

But then you are arguing against a single device, when 'mobile devices' and the optimized apps or software created for them can cover:

• Smartphones
• Tablets
• Laptops
• Mobile Gaming Consoles
• Smart TVs " Source Digital, Inc. and Sansar, Inc. announce what is believed to be the first-ever metaverse experience on smart TVs."

We've covered why phones are a poor choice for SL, tablets are just over sized phones, with the same awful UII problems.

Most laptops do NOT run on android or "mobile" versions of whyOS. Mobile gaming consoles, basically that would be SteamDeck, these days, none of the others has the power needed to run SL, and the SteamDeck runs linux, and can use a standard viewer.

As for sansar on TV's, the people that are doing that are trying to use it for broadcasting concerts and sports coverage, not as a virtual world. Your linked article is 2 years old, but who is using Sansar today?

Take a look at how many people use sansar. This is current data from SteamDB.

https://steamdb.info/app/586110/charts/

 

Online right now 2, Peak numbers last 24 hours, 6.

Sansar is a bad joke.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

My questions are simply ...

1. What is it that LL expects a SL user to do on a mobile device? (I'm not aware that has ever been shared.)
2. What will be necessary and what will/can be lost in a mobile UX?

Those are great questions. 

[Love Zhaoying]

19 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Premium beta (sooner or later)

Yeah, I missed that.  At least it will be a much wider potential test user base than Premium Plus.

[Extrude Ragu]

Back when Lumiya was a thing, the primary use case to me was being able to keep up with my friends on the go. I don't have everyone on discord and often had to do 8h train journeys across the country in the past to see my family.

These days, if it had access to adult regions, I'd probably use it for when I don't want to sit at my desk. Like I could sit on my couch, watch TV and message my friends, or whilst I am cooking, etc.

I couldn't see myself using a mobile viewer as my primary viewer though.

[Extrude Ragu]

You know what I think would be nice?

Being able to be logged in from more than one place at a time. It'd be great if I could leave myself logged in on my PC, but then use my mobile as a 'remote viewer', just to check if anyones messaged me etc. Kinda like how you can be logged into discord from multiple devices at once.

[Qie Niangao]

5 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I'm saying that a mobile SL can compliment your SL experience, but not replace it. It wil do different things and be simplified just by the very nature of the UX on a mobile device. (Again, referring to "mobile" to mean phone in this example.)

Right, but there's a list of things that people seem to dismiss as impossible on a mobile device that seem perfectly doable to me. Some might benefit from more UI refinement than others.

I'd absolutely go to live music events and clubs with a phone or tablet. Didn't they made a big deal of getting parcel audio to work in the mobile viewer a couple months ago?

And the public demos show what looks like passable exploration. May have been cherry-picked and edited, but that's another activity I assume they expect to be in demand.

I guess I wouldn't expect to select objects much beyond whatever their default left-click does, but if you can do that and maybe respond to a dialog menu, you can ride the rails around the Atoll or Belli for hours (or until killed by a border crossing combined with a zero-second orb).

Personally, I'd probably use a bluetooth keyboard if one were handy but I could get by with swype typing on Android, and anyway most mobile users probably expect to use voice.

But I've been using SL for 18 years on a desktop, so my expectations are totally contaminated by prior experience. I wonder what fresh mobile users will actually want to do.

 

[Cristiano Midnight]

6 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Back when Lumiya was a thing, the primary use case to me was being able to keep up with my friends on the go. I don't have everyone on discord and often had to do 8h train journeys across the country in the past to see my family.

These days, if it had access to adult regions, I'd probably use it for when I don't want to sit at my desk. Like I could sit on my couch, watch TV and message my friends, or whilst I am cooking, etc.

I couldn't see myself using a mobile viewer as my primary viewer though.

I think the primary use case for SL on mobile is communication, which is why the closed garden nature of SL has always been so frustrating. I don't need to build and run around in SL on my phone (though with the right UI being able to move and interact with the environments would be nice), I just want to be able to message people in SL without having to be logged into a desktop viewer.