Will The New TOS on Child Avatars Ensnare Short Adults?

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Kathlen Onyx said:

Now you are just being argumentative for the sake of it. IF they look under 18 I don't care how old they SAY they are. Do you really think someone in an adult venue that looks under 18 is going to tell you they are 16 *in SL* 

Are you getting RL mixed up with SL?

No, I am just asking simple questions. The problem I have with that approach, is that you could potentially get people banned for nothing. Yes if they are actually guilty of it, then yeah you did a good thing. But then again, the Lindens really need to change how the deal with and penalize people. Shouldn't the accuse know that they have been reported and have the ability to prove they didn't do anything wrong? 

[Madi Melodious]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

RL is RL.  When someone looks 14 in SL we can't check the ID. 

Now there is a idea.  How about we just go by account age?   There, problem solved.  My job here is done....😎

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Madi Melodious said:

Now there is a idea.  How about we just go by account age?   There, problem solved.  My job here is done....😎

That makes no sense. Most users are below 18 account-wise. So would that not also restrict those people who are adults from accessing certain content? Please tell me how this make sense? 

[Madi Melodious]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

That makes no sense. Most users are below 18 account-wise. So would that not also restrict those people who are adults from accessing certain content? Please tell me how this make sense? 

No sense of humor?

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Madi Melodious said:

No sense of humor?

It's kinda hard to discern if one is being sarcastic or not through text. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

No, I am just asking simple questions. The problem I have with that approach, is that you could potentially get people banned for nothing. Yes if they are actually guilty of it, then yeah you did a good thing. But then again, the Lindens really need to change how the deal with and penalize people. Shouldn't the accuse know that they have been reported and have the ability to prove they didn't do anything wrong? 

Well, I mean THEY DO! Did you not read that there is a suspension tree that they use. Also, just because someone sends in an AR doesn't mean anything will come of it.

They also have an appeals process.

[Madi Melodious]

5 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

It's kinda hard to discern if one is being sarcastic or not through text. 

😎 <-  Really?   this was wearing sunglasses and smiling didn't give it away?

 

Edited May 18 by Madi Melodious

[Sammy Huntsman]

10 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

😎 <-  Really?   this was wearing sunglasses and smiling didn't give it away?

 

Thank you for gaslighting me, but i actually have a hard time telling if someone is being sarcastic using text. Heck I have a hard time telling what certain emojis and emoticons mean. I mean is that a bad thing? 

[Madi Melodious]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Thank you for gaslighting me, but i actually have a hard time telling if someone is being sarcastic using text. Heck I have a hard time telling what certain emojis and emoticons mean. I mean is that a bad thing? 

💖You're welcome💖

[Rowan Amore]

32 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

No, I am just asking simple questions. The problem I have with that approach, is that you could potentially get people banned for nothing. Yes if they are actually guilty of it, then yeah you did a good thing. But then again, the Lindens really need to change how the deal with and penalize people. Shouldn't the accuse know that they have been reported and have the ability to prove they didn't do anything wrong? 

This shape is on the MP under children's shapes.  Depending on skin used, she could look even younger.  As in child presenting avatar.  As in not allowed in adult regions or involves in adult activities.  That's where the problem lies. 

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Anita-Child-Teen-Shapes-for-LeL-Kaya-EvoX-31/23138470

[Persephone Emerald]

32 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

This shape is on the MP under children's shapes.  Depending on skin used, she could look even younger.  As in child presenting avatar.  As in not allowed in adult regions or involves in adult activities.  That's where the problem lies. 

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Anita-Child-Teen-Shapes-for-LeL-Kaya-EvoX-31/23138470

So what? Anyone can make or modify a shape. I don't see anything objectionable in this ad. LL has not said that people have to use only approved mesh bodies to make a child or teen avatar.

[Jaylinbridges]

Tween and Teen versions coming soon! 

(Grandma's lookin' good)

 

Edited May 18 by Jaylinbridges

[Kathlen Onyx]

53 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

So what? Anyone can make or modify a shape. I don't see anything objectionable in this ad. LL has not said that people have to use only approved mesh bodies to make a child or teen avatar.

Yes but the body or skin *not sure if we've determined that yet* has to have the modesty layers on it.  If this avatar was on adult land they shouldn't be and if they are on G or M rated land they should be wearing the modesty layers.

Shapes, not so much, however you are using, or made a shape that makes you look under 18 you'd better be wearing a modesty layer and not be seen in A rated land.

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Are you someone qualified to make that assertion?

Yes

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just been skimming the last few pages, but how sad that LL is causing people to question how they look and wondering if the have to change in order too avoid the dreaded accusation of being underage, with the resulting AR's.

Great job fostering an inviting tolerant environment LL

[Scylla Rhiadra]

And here's the basic problem that some are raising.

SL was designed, quite consciously by Philip Rosedale (who still talks about this aspect of the platform), as a self-regulating "system." In particular, he saw the value of, and SL for the most part continues to rely upon, the "policing" of various kinds of community standards by the community itself. LL provides the "enforcement" -- and is of course to some degree judge and jury as well -- but the actual maintenance of standards is performed by residents themselves. If residents, on the whole, don't think that a particular violation of the ToS warrants action, then they don't AR it . . . and it goes undetected and unpunished, and that particular kind of "infraction" becomes, de facto, not really much of an "infraction" at all.

A relevant example, perhaps, are those "edge case" venues that feature teen sex RP that isn't "really" teen sex RP because, despite the scenarios suggesting as much, everyone there is of course RPing as "over 18." We, as a culture, frankly tolerate such places and groups, despite the fact that they almost certainly are regularly violating the spirit, if not necessarily the letter, of the ToS.

It is entirely possible, and valid, to see this as Coffee is characterizing it: as a "system" that produces a steady supply of Karens, of self-appointed vigilantes and busybodies working very hard to impose their own standards upon others. I have no doubt whatsoever that SL has many such people.

But . . . what are the alternatives, really? One would be to ask LL to start doing the "policing" themselves, sending (at no small cost) roaming Lindens or Moles around in search of violations. it would be an entirely top-down enforcement of "standards," and we would become, in essence, something not unlike a police state.

AGAB, anyone?

OR we simply don't enforce any rules, either from within the community, or by those deputized to do so by LL. And SL becomes an utterly unworkable and unlivable hellhole of the worst types of griefing and ToS violations.

I really and truly get the contempt that some feel for vigilantes and those who regularly AR people. I haven't ARed anyone who wasn't actively griefing my parcel in . . . 14 years or so? It's not a pleasant thing to do.

But I personally would rather we have "community" policing, if you like, than LL-appointed and run "beat cops" walking the sidewalks, actively trying to "catch" miscreants . . . and probably leading to a shortage of donuts on the grid to boot.

Edited May 18 by Scylla Rhiadra
Typos

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And here's the basic problem that some are raising.

SL was designed, quite consciously by Philip Rosedale (who still talks about this aspect of the platform), as a self-regulating "system." In particular, he saw the value of, and SL for the most part continues to rely upon, the "policing" of various kinds of community standards by the community itself. LL provides the "enforcement" -- and is of course to some degree judge and jury as well -- but the actual maintenance of standards is performed by residents themselves. If residents, on the whole, don't think that a particular violation of the ToS warrants action, then they don't AR it . . . and it goes undetected and unpunished, and that particular kind of "infraction" becomes, de facto, not really much of an "infraction" at all.

A relevant example, perhaps, are those "edge case" venues that feature teen sex RP that isn't "really" teen sex RP because, despite the scenarios suggesting as much, everyone there is of course RPing as "over 18." We, as a culture, frankly tolerate such places and groups, despite the fact that they almost certainly are regularly violating the spirit, if not necessarily the letter, of the ToS.

It is entirely possible, and valid, to see this as Coffee is characterizing it: as a "system" that produces a steady supply of Karens, of self-appointed vigilantes and busybodies working very hard to impose their own standards upon others. I have no doubt whatsoever that SL has many such people.

But . . . what are the alternatives, really? One would be to ask LL to start doing the "policing" themselves, sending (at no small cost) roaming Lindens or Moles around in search of violations. it would be an entirely top-down enforcement of "standards," and we would become, in essence, something not unlike a police state.

AGAB, anyone?

OR we simply don't enforce any rules, either from within the community, or by those deputized to do so by LL. And SL becomes an utterly unworkable and unlivable hellhole of the worst types of griefing and ToS violations.

I really and truly get the contempt that some feel for vigilantes and those who regularly AR people. I haven't ARed anyone who wasn't actively griefing my parcel in . . . 14 years or so? It's not a pleasant thing to do.

But I personally would rather we have "community" policing, if you like, than LL-appointed and run "beat cops" walking the sidewalks, actively trying to "catch" miscreants . . . and probably leading to a shortage of donuts on the grid to boot.

This current mess is a result of LL banning any underage avi from A sims. Oh, you look 17, kick ban, and AR to boot.

Sure we need some rules, but not a rule that will pit half of SL against the other half. There is no community when everyone is looking for an excuse to AR someone they don't like.

And I'll say it one more time (and maybe the  last time on this thread), LL started all this over allegations of improprieties by a staff member, this attack on underage avis has NOTHING to do with that allegation, and will do NOTHING to prevent such events from happening again.

I personally think the owners of SL are cleaning it up to sell it.. God help us all

Edited May 18 by BilliJo Aldrin
added stuff, changed a word

[Starberry Passion]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And here's the basic problem that some are raising.

SL was designed, quite consciously by Philip Rosedale (who still talks about this aspect of the platform), as a self-regulating "system." In particular, he saw the value of, and SL for the most part continues to rely upon, the "policing" of various kinds of community standards by the community itself. LL provides the "enforcement" -- and is of course to some degree judge and jury as well -- but the actual maintenance of standards is performed by residents themselves. If residents, on the whole, don't think that a particular violation of the ToS warrants action, then they don't AR it . . . and it goes undetected and unpunished, and that particular kind of "infraction" becomes, de facto, not really much of an "infraction" at all.

A relevant example, perhaps, are those "edge case" venues that feature teen sex RP that isn't "really" teen sex RP because, despite the scenarios suggesting as much, everyone there is of course RPing as "over 18." We, as a culture, frankly tolerate such places and groups, despite the fact that they almost certainly are regularly violating the spirit, if not necessarily the letter, of the ToS.

It is entirely possible, and valid, to see this as Coffee is characterizing it: as a "system" that produces a steady supply of Karens, of self-appointed vigilantes and busybodies working very hard to impose their own standards upon others. I have no doubt whatsoever that SL has many such people.

But . . . what are the alternatives, really? One would be to ask LL to start doing the "policing" themselves, sending (at no small cost) roaming Lindens or Moles around in search of violations. it would be an entirely top-down enforcement of "standards," and we would become, in essence, something not unlike a police state.

AGAB, anyone?

OR we simply don't enforce any rules, either from within the community, or by those deputized to do so by LL. And SL becomes an utterly unworkable and unlivable hellhole of the worst types of griefing and ToS violations.

I really and truly get the contempt that some feel for vigilantes and those who regularly AR people. I haven't ARed anyone who wasn't actively griefing my parcel in . . . 14 years or so? It's not a pleasant thing to do.

But I personally would rather we have "community" policing, if you like, than LL-appointed and run "beat cops" walking the sidewalks, actively trying to "catch" miscreants . . . and probably leading to a shortage of donuts on the grid to boot.

The other problem is that there are a lot of people that don't see those "edge cases" as "edge cases" and half of the grid have this aesthetic where they want to be what they want to be and have their avatar fit them and not someone else, but someone is constantly telling them what to do, calling them "edge cases" due to a bias. 

If Anything, it is the community that continue to destroy itself, given too much power over to a few certain finger on the trigger happy people that will A.R. you, rather you are innocent or not. With over half of everyone having that flickr style/twitter model style, e-girl style. BBG is very popular, it is a large portion of second life itself. All of these groups can and will, in some way, be affected by overly harsh treatment of the community and it will drive out more people than people think.

People will be even more divided or be like some of the creators that are on twitter and stop playing Second life other than taking photos or creating and then logging off.

Second life have already been hostile and have be segregated, in several areas. It will be even harder for some people. if things continue down the way that it is going. I don't see it going well, if people just use fear to try to control other people constantly. I don't think that it would be a good idea for Linden Lab to police anything but I think there should be a more fair and just treatment and a level of respect given to everyone.

There should be more room for understanding and a room for acceptance and give people a chance to breathe and grow into their world that they dive into.

Everyone is so gung-ho in ARing everyone that it will be no more room, left, to AR anyone after that and it will kill Second Life, quicker than everyone thing.

We, already, have had two forums where people posted their avatars and neither of them were actually helpful, it only opened it up for Critique and more fear from a community and then someone will say "No one hates anyone." but look at how threads like this and people, inworld, learning about the new T.o.S. are acting upon reading everything.

Because someone will be an "edge case" to someone and all because of Child Avatars. This shouldn't even have been about adult avatars or adults presenting or youthful adults or short adults or tall adults, chubby adults but people are making it that way. That's a community issue. This has become a "How can I trust this community?" issue more than anything else and that is what needs to be settled and or rectified. 

[brodiac90]

8 hours ago, Kaia Sachin said:

Do you think I look 18+ now with this eyeshadow? I tried lipstick but hate how I look with it on. 

Can't say exactly what age you are but definitely below 18. Possibly 15? 16? 

You look much older in the second photo you posted. It mainly has to do with the complexion and how the face is framed. Your skin in the first photo is very smooth and child like. Also in the second one, your cheeks seem to be more angular and older looking. 

8 hours ago, Kaia Sachin said:

I look so much older with this skin. I do feel weird in it though. As if I just had face transplant or something lol

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

This current mess is a result of LL banning any underage avi from A sims. Oh, you look 17, kick ban, and AR to boot.

Sure we need some rules, but not a rule that will pit half of SL against the other half. There is no community where everyone is looking for an excuse to AR someone they don't like.

And I'll say it one more time (and maybe the  last time on this thread), LL started all this over allegations of improprieties by a staff member, this attack on underage avis has NOTHING to do with that allegation, and will do NOTHING to prevent such events from happening again.

I personally think the owners of SL are cleaning it up to sell it.. God help us all

OH...get the smelling salts out. Dramatic enough?

You have no idea what started all of this.  That's speculation. The same as the title of this OP.

If you are not involved in age-play then how would you even know how prevalent it is in SL?   There very well could have been a sting operation going on that we don't even know about.  You know with REAL law enforcement.

75% of people aren't even going to read the TOS to know about the changes so I highly doubt that there will be an uptick of AR's due to the changes.

You can whine about child avatars being banned from A-rated regions all you want BUT it's not changing.  It doesn't matter what the reason for it is.

Rules suck don't they?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

How soon before adult avis start getting an e-mail like this from LL

—————————

Greetings,

It has been determined that you avatar is under the age of eighteen.

You are reminded that all avatars under eighteen must comply with the TOS changes regarding child avatars.

Repeated violation of the TOS will result in increasing penalties up to and and including a perma ban.

Have a nice day

Regards, Linden Lab

————————

I’m just kidding , LL would never say Have a nice day 😂

Edited May 18 by BilliJo Aldrin
spelling

[brodiac90]

Grabs a bag of popcorn and watches the grownups argue.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

38 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Can't say exactly what age you are but definitely below 18. Possibly 15? 16? 

You look much older in the second photo you posted. It mainly has to do with the complexion and how the face is framed. Your skin in the first photo is very smooth and child like. Also in the second one, your cheeks seem to be more angular and older looking. 

 

all borderline avis will be second guessing themselves now, wondering if they will make enough changes to their appearance to avoid the dreaded accusation of being under 18

Wondrful, just wonderful.

Brodiac, you wont think it’s so funny when they finally ban all under 18’s

Just to protect them of course.

[Persephone Emerald]

2 hours ago, Starberry Passion said:

[snip]

If Anything, it is the community that continue to destroy itself, given too much power over to a few certain finger on the trigger happy people that will A.R. you, rather you are innocent or not. With over half of everyone having that flickr style/twitter model style, e-girl style. BBG is very popular, it is a large portion of second life itself. All of these groups can and will, in some way, be affected by overly harsh treatment of the community and it will drive out more people than people think.

[snip]

Everyone is so gung-ho in ARing everyone that it will be no more room, left, to AR anyone after that and it will kill Second Life, quicker than everyone thing.

[snip]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

This current mess is a result of LL banning any underage avi from A sims. Oh, you look 17, kick ban, and AR to boot.

Sure we need some rules, but not a rule that will pit half of SL against the other half. There is no community where everyone is looking for an excuse to AR someone they don't like.

And I'll say it one more time (and maybe the  last time on this thread), LL started all this over allegations of improprieties by a staff member, this attack on underage avis has NOTHING to do with that allegation, and will do NOTHING to prevent such events from happening again.

I personally think the owners of SL are cleaning it up to sell it.. God help us all

Oh, boo-hoo. 😪

The sky is falling because some people might think some other people's avatars look underage and they won't be able to go on Adult regions.

@BilliJo Aldrin, you already said you boot and ban child avatars from your own Adult parcel. No sensible person would think your avatar looks like a minor, and yet you keep worrying that you'll get booted and ARed. Why are you so worked up over the idea of underage-looking avatars not being allowed on Adult regions? It's against LL's interest to ban accounts that aren't really doing anything wrong. I'm not saying they don't or won't make mistakes, but I am saying they're not going to ban people just for being short, cute, or a little young-looking

@Starberry Passion, Most people will not be AR trigger happy. If a few are, I trust Goverance to be able to decide if a situation is really a problem or not. 

The community policing AP a bit more strictly is not going to kill Second Life.

[Ceka Cianci]

3 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

This current mess is a result of LL banning any underage avi from A sims. Oh, you look 17, kick ban, and AR to boot.

Sure we need some rules, but not a rule that will pit half of SL against the other half. There is no community when everyone is looking for an excuse to AR someone they don't like.

And I'll say it one more time (and maybe the  last time on this thread), LL started all this over allegations of improprieties by a staff member, this attack on underage avis has NOTHING to do with that allegation, and will do NOTHING to prevent such events from happening again.

I personally think the owners of SL are cleaning it up to sell it.. God help us all

Usually if there was some sort of hysterical reaction going on from policy changes, the grid would be alive with chatter about it..

To be honest, the only place I hear any reactions is here in the forums..  Usually it would be infesting  a lot of my groups, which it hasn't.

The panic feels more like how news media gets panic going.. mountain out of mole hill kind of thing..

I really don't think we'll be seeing these AR raid parties like we did years ago.. just some random kicks from sims because someone was too close to the edge of 18 or whatever some land owner feels is too young for their environment..

Edited May 18 by Ceka Cianci
Replaced historical with hysterical..lol