Will The New TOS on Child Avatars Ensnare Short Adults?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

6 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

WHO is saying this?  Anyway it would be your face that might get you an AR.  It doesn't really look like an adult face.

so now i gotta change my face too? I bought that head my first day in SL. I think it was the wlm001 avatar. Under the bangs, there is no way it looks underage, but thanks for giving me something else to be concerned about

[Jaylinbridges]

@BilliJo Aldrin

I know you think it's about height.  But continuing with your cute pink bunny ears - Do these avatars qualify as jailbait child avatars?  Think of everyone who sticks a tail and ears on their human avatar.  Are they still human?  The FAQ says wear a non-human avatar to avoid the new rules. Ag*play must be ok with these $4000L bunny avatars then?  (The clothing is removable at least for now.) Yes they are short, about 1/2 size human mesh bodies.

https://gyazo.com/5d653dd5e9360f7d12f314e0b82fd3e2

Edited May 9 by Jaylinbridges

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Don't bother. She already KNOWS all this.  It's just a way to continue the other thread because it was locked.

report the thread then, say it was created in bad faith.

that thread was about child avatars, this one is about short adults, totally not the same at all.

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

so now i gotta change my face too? I bought that head my first day in SL. I think it was the wlm001 avatar. Under the bangs, there is no way it looks underage, but thanks for giving me something else to be concerned about

I actually don't think that but it does go to show your paranoia.  You could worry about it every single second you are logged in or just know that you aren't doing anything wrong or looking like a underage avatar and enjoy your SL.  I guarantee you that for every person in SL they all have a different opinion on how you look.

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Yes, rejected suitor, I’ll show that b***h, I’ll AR her for being underage on an A sim.

LL takes great delight in not being specific, its so much easier to catch people stepping over the line when they won’t tell you what the line is .

Ambiguity is LL’s friend, and your enemy

That's my take on it too. Some here don't appreciate the concerns we have because they either don't log inworld, don't go to public places, sit in their safe skybox, store owners who don't leave their own parcel etc and just read the ToS and think everything should be fine because ToS Rules! without ever having much of a clue about the sort of interactions that can and do happen in the public areas.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

I could report you all day long and if you are not breaking the TOS nothing will happen. If for some reason LL does ban you due to an AR then you obviously were not doing what you were supposed to be doing thus breaking the TOS. It's pretty simple really.

as they say, throw enough s**t at the wall and sooner or later something will stick

[Sydelle Zanzibar]

2 hours ago, elleevelyn said:

lucky for me then that I am not short. Altho tbh I have no idea what a Trapper Keeper is altho I do have a backpack. And neko ears and neko tail and chibi wings. But I am not short so I am good yes

A Trapper Keeper is a notebook/binder that all/Most Gex X kids had in school. 

Edit: wrong picture

Edited May 9 by Sydelle Zanzibar

[Katherine Heartsong]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

From the faq:

Q: Does the height or gender of my avatar define it as a child avatar?

A: No. We review many factors from an Abuse Report to come to a final conclusion, and height or gender alone are not grounds for Governance action.

Exactly! The answer is right there and yet round and round and round we go.

And this coming from me, a verified height snob, who finds any male avatar over 6'4" problematic.

Height alone is not grounds for Governance action.

Okies?

Next!

---------

I will add that obviously someone who has their knickers twisted and is a disruptive ninny/griefer type might AR you because they personally think height matters, but if you think LL will boot you because of just that one thing, acting totally contrary to their own written rules, you're acting even more paranoid than I actually am.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Exactly! The answer is right there and yet round and round and round we go.

And this coming from me, a verified height snob, who finds any male avatar over 6'4" problematic.

Height alone is not grounds for Governance action.

Okies?

Next!

---------

I will add that obviously someone who has their knickers twisted and is a disruptive ninny/griefer type might AR you because they personally think height matters, but if you think LL will boot you because of just that one thing, acting totally contrary to their own written rules, you're acting even more paranoid than I actually am.

Well y'see, everyone must be lying about it. And that's definitely not any type of projecting.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Well y'see, everyone must be lying about it. And that's definitely not any type of projecting.

Do you regularly go out to public areas and interact with others?   asking for a friend

[brodiac90]

1 hour ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Well this certainly isn't true at all. Just the other day I was at a club where we, adults, were having a PJ party.  We ALL were holding candy and teddy bears because it was a theme party. Just yesterday this same club had a theme because it was Teacher Appreciation day. A lot of women were dressed in short plaid skirts with a shirt and tie. Normally what a child would wear to school  

My point is each and every  situation is different and if someone wants a definite answer they aren't going to get it.

It's why I said 'more likely,' but I agree context is key. 

[Innula Zenovka]

3 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

We all know of the new war on child avatars, but any avatar under 18 will eventually be included,

from the TOS:

---------------------------------

Q: How do you define a child avatar?

A: We are relying on the community to use their best judgment to determine if they are using a child avatar or not. Creating a list of specifications for something like this can be a slippery slope, and we certainly don’t want to give out directions on how to circumvent any policies. If a reasonable person would look at the features of your avatar and consider it underage, we would recommend not engaging in adult activities on that account. Apart from considering the avatar's appearance, the team considers various other factors, such as the purpose for which the avatar is being used.

As mentioned in other Q&As, general physical characteristics that apply to adults as well as children such as avatar height, being of slim or petite build, gender identity (such as non-binary or gender non-conforming), or ethnicity are not sole or intrinsic qualities that might qualify an avatar as a child avatar.

-------------------------

I am 5 ft 5 inches tall, fully adult, have always represented myself as an adult and yet, i'm concerned.

I've not seen a clarification if under 18 avatars are allowed on A rated sims or not, obviously child avatars are banned, but no mention of say 17 year olds.

I'm short, sometimes I wear a young hair style, young looking clothes, sneakers, will all these combined cause someone to say, "oh no a child avi on adult land" when I tp home.. "AR them"?

They say height is not the determining factor, but I say it is.

If I wore the exact same outfit but was 7 ft tall, they wouldn't touch me, obviously an adult... but short... well AR them and see right?

I'm afraid the war on child avis will eventually encompass short adults, and every time you log in, you will run the risk of being ARed

 

The test you mention, "If a reasonable person would look at the features of your avatar and consider it underage, we would recommend not engaging in adult activities on that account," is pretty much that used in criminal proceedings involving indecent photographs of children, at least in the UK  (this is something I know a bit about, from my former life in the criminal justice system).

If the identity of the person in the image is not known, or the prosecution cannot prove their age at the time the photograph was taken, it becomes a question of fact, for the jury to decide, whether the photo is of someone who is 18 or not.    Consequently, no prosecutor will waste the court's time with a picture that might be of an 18-year-old but, then again, they might be 16 or 17,  because in those circumstances there's no way for the jury to be sure how old they are, and the prosecution has failed to establish one of the basic elements of the offence.

It's only in cases where people take one look at the image and say "there's no way that kid is 18 or anything like it" that the case will come to court. 

Since LL are applying that same test, I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

Edited May 9 by Innula Zenovka

[Dorientje Woller]

25 minutes ago, sirhc DeSantis said:

For those who use more logical units the stated height is approx 1.65m. For those more comfortable with BCE measures thats about 3.6 cubits.

Now back to rinse and repeat

What are pine cones then? Because Smurfs are 3 pine cones tall

[Sid Nagy]

10 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Well y'see, everyone must be lying about it. And that's definitely not any type of projecting.

When I started in SL some smart people where selling invisible prims that surrounded the avatar as protection shield.
Maybe, I could start selling those as anti AR shield... 🤔

Edited May 9 by Sid Nagy

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Since LL are applying that same test, I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

The AR reporter nor LL is using a jury of 12 peers to decide the outcome. I would trust 12 peers a lot more then 1 potentially unknown reporter or Linden.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I'm afraid the war on child avis will eventually encompass short adults, and every time you log in, you will run the risk of being ARed

seriously though I would lose the bright hair as there are those who really take exception to it. Even if they can't AR for that reason, they may just look for an excuse to report one based on that.

[brodiac90]

14 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The AR reporter nor LL is using a jury of 12 peers to decide the outcome. I would trust 12 peers a lot more then 1 potentially unknown reporter or Linden.

12 random people whose average intelligence is already low, and half the popultion are lower than that, does not compare to an expert. In fact, decisions by committee can often be worse in a risk averse environment when sometimes you just need 1 sensibble person to go. Err no, this is obiously not a child avatar etc. In fact, if this thread and the main one have proven anything, it's that you don't want peers deciding this stuff. 

Edited May 9 by brodiac90

[Phil Deakins]

If anyone thinks that their avatar might just be considered to be underage, then don't change anything. If the avatar gets ARed, you'll know nothing about it unless you have a communication from LL. Such a communication will advise you  to change something about your avatar, that's all. Then you'll know the answer. Borderline cases won't be banned. Not for merely being a borderline avatar. The FAQ indicates that very clearly.

This thread is about paranoia concerning a borderline case, and I don't believe that the paranoia is justified. My opinion is that this case is nowhere near borderline, anyway.

Edited May 9 by Phil Deakins

[Flower Caerndow]

To answer the OP - your skinny shapeless legs and lack of hips do contribute to a pre-pubescent look, but the broadness of your shoulders and shape of your face look more adult.  If it were not for those shoulders and head I would say you look like a twelve year old boy with giant boobs stuck on.  But in my opinion that head could save you, it looks quite a bit more adult than many of the newer mesh head and skin combinations - it does not appear to have the pointy chin and big eyes of the more childlike heads.

However - if you are choosing to be short in order to appeal to the desire of guys to infantilize women, then yeah - maybe you do have something to worry about.  

BTW- it is not a "war on child avatars"  - depictions of children or childlike avatars in sexual situations are against the law in the US where LL is located.  Stop it with the hyperbole and trolling.

[Rowan Amore]

56 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Maybe  But the squeakier I got, they had to do something.

But the person you were reporting WAS at fault.  If they were not, you may have been the one in trouble for all those ARs.  

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Just so you don't get it twisted I use "I" as an example. I've never reported anyone for anything and I doubt I'll start now.

However, the system was open to abuse before the new TOS on Child Avi's was implemented. Someone could report someone before, and I'm sure they did, because they didn't like them.  Again, if you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about.

Also, if you are so afraid of LL why are you even on the platform to begin with?

second life is the only game in town, there is no other choice.

However that is no reason to continue dropping money into the game.

LL should be worried about people saying eff this, im not gonna spend another penny on a platform that might ban me tomorrow based on malicious ARs

[Arielle Popstar]

13 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

If anyone thinks that their avatar might just be considered to be underage, then don't change anything. If the avatar gets ARed, you'll know nothing about it unless you have a communication from LL. Such a communication will advise you  to change something about your avatar, that's all. Then you'll know the answer. Borderline cases won't be banned. Not for merely being a borderline avatar. The FAQ indicates that very clearly.

This thread is about paranoia concerning a borderline case, and I don't believe that the paranoia is justified. My opinion is that this case is nowhere near borderline, anyway.

The fact is that unless one of us has access to the "tree" that Governance uses to determine the severity of an infraction, we have no way of knowing whether there will be any sort of communication from the lab other then to inform of a permanent ban.

[Phil Deakins]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

But the person you were reporting WAS at fault.  If they were not, you may have been the one in trouble for all those ARs.  

If I'd been ARing something that wasn't against the rules, yes, of course. But I wasn't

[Codex Alpha]

3 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

 

First off, you have to use your own judgement. Only you know your use and intent of any avatar - and which sims you will visit, and the actions you will do and the things you participate in.

As far as the avatar you present in the picture - I wouldn't blink twice or care. To ME, a 'child'-avatar and the ones I usually see, are clearly younger - age 12 and down... those are the ones usually caught up in controversy.

Remember this is more about BEHAVIOURS and ACTIONS, not an attack on young looking avatars.

That being said, LL says...

In some cases there may be an element of subjectivity as to whether an avatar (or other image) appears to be a minor. Objective factors which will be used to decide include whether an avatar has childlike facial features, is child-sized, has clothing or accessories generally associated with children, and whether, based on the circumstances, an avatar is speaking or acting like a child ("My Mommy says...").

Note: Merely having a childlike avatar does not violate this policy. It is not our intent to banish childlike avatars in and of themselves.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Clarification_of_policy_disallowing_ageplay

 

[Phil Deakins]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The fact is that unless one of us has access to the "tree" that Governance uses to determine the severity of an infraction, we have no way of knowing whether there will be any sort of communication from the lab other then to inform of a permanent ban.

A ban right off the bat isn't going to happen with a 'maybe underage, maybe not' avatar. There are only 2 reasons to think that it might:

1. paranoia

2. just for the sake of arguing.