Will The New TOS on Child Avatars Ensnare Short Adults?

[Kathlen Onyx]

6 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

My feelings are complicated. Do I broadly agree with the rule changes? Yes. 

Am I conerned about what it might mean for content I already own? Absolutely. If Tweenster does not update then I'm going to lose about 2000 items of clothing costing me thousands of RL dollars. I'll also need to invest in another avatar and clothing, say Tweeneedoo (the closest in size). So, in some ways, a lot of things are still up in the air for the time being. 

Do I understand the need for the modesty layers? Yes, does it make me feel any less dirty or ashamed that they're necessary? No, they're a constant reminder that sick things go on in SL and even though I've done nothing wrong it still feels icky. 

 

What if SL shut down tomorrow? You'd be losing ALL the real life dollars you put into it.  We all know it could happen any day.

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Ok, so I get maybe being a bit nervous to commit to a subscription until this all pans out and we see what the implications really are but why leave? What does leaving do but affect the person leaving. I mean if you get banned you essentially aren't here either so I don't get it.

I think the people that say they are leaving are just not logging in maybe for now. The real question would be "how many people have left AND deleted their account"  Even that doesn't say a whole lot as you can always get your account back.

You can't really just look at May 2nd as an isolated event. For many, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. For some people, it wasn't so much I'm fed up with the changes, it was more, I'm fed up with the changes and everything that has come before. Contempt for child avatars is not a new thing. 

[Phil Deakins]

1 minute ago, brodiac90 said:

Contempt for child avatars is not a new thing. 

That's true. It's not an attitude that I share, but it's unfortunately true.

Edited May 16 by Phil Deakins

[Kathlen Onyx]

16 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Depends then how you define "left". People closing accounts probably not many if at all. People who are no longer logging in, definitely some. People logging in a lot less, probably a fair few.  People logged in but parked and no longer buying, quite a few more.

I'd put money on that people are actually not logging in because they died or they ended up in the hospital rather than being upset with a sensible TOS.  It hasn't even been a month.

Come post this in a a year and we'll see if the number logged in changes much from today till then. I doubt it.

[brodiac90]

3 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

What if SL shut down tomorrow? You'd be losing ALL the real life dollars you put into it.  We all know it could happen any day.

Yes, we all accept that SL may one day close down and die. It's not so much the event but the why. 

[Phil Deakins]

3 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Yes, we all accept that SL may one day close down and die.

Either it will, or each of us will sooner or later lol

Edited May 16 by Phil Deakins

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

You can't really just look at May 2nd as an isolated event. For many, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. For some people, it wasn't so much I'm fed up with the changes, it was more, I'm fed up with the changes and everything that has come before. Contempt for child avatars is not a new thing. 

BUT the TOS changes have nothing to do with contempt for child avatars. ***play isn't a kink, sexualized situations with children is not a kink.

I've never seen so much pushback from a company trying to do the right thing.  It's really rather mindboggling.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

27 minutes ago, Sadvhi said:

I'm glad you clarified this! Things could get a bit complicated because child avatars need to visit Moderate sims to shop, to try new animations, buy items for their home or farm, etc. So they may sometimes find themselves in the presence of adults who are not fully clothed and/or using lewd gestures. 

I thought if a child went to a moderate sim they had to immediatly tp out lest they get ARed for being in the presence of a nude adult

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

BUT the TOS changes have nothing to do with contempt for child avatars. ***play isn't a kink, sexualized situations with children is not a kink.

I've never seen so much pushback from a company trying to do the right thing.  It's really rather mindboggling.

They don't, that is a resident problem. In fact, all of the moles and Lindens I've interacted with on my child avatar have been nothing but lovely. 

The push back isn't about the aim, it's about the execution. I imagine only pedofiles disagree with what LL is aiming to do. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

There are some people that really need to go back and read the TOS and comprehend it.

[brodiac90]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I thought if a child went to a moderate sim they had to immediatly tp out lest they get ARed for being in the presence of a nude adult

Yes, they do, even on G land. 

[Phil Deakins]

2 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

BUT the TOS changes have nothing to do with contempt for child avatars. ***play isn't a kink, sexualized situations with children is not a kink.

I've never seen so much pushback from a company trying to do the right thing.  It's really rather mindboggling.

brodiac is talking about all the unjustified flak etc. that child avs have received through the years. The new rules may well be the final straw that broke camel's back for some of them, which would be understandable. Even so, LL is doing exactly the right thing, imo.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

The statements I'm addressing were about the effect of a "large number" of people leaving SL because of the new rules. I'm querying that statement because I am absolutely certain that it will never happen.

It already has been happening Phil, and that is with just a minority being aware of the new policy's. There have been a number of posts in these threads mentioning some particulars like the uptick in young avatars going to Opensim, the bannings that have triggered many more to cut back on their SL inworld time, those dropping their Premium,  Land and rentals. That has so far just been coming from the under 10 appearing community. At the last meeting the Lindens also mentioned the new rules will apply to furries and anthros so its reasonable to assume there will be more dropping their subscriptions from those communities.

Also it depends how you mean "a large number" as I don't know how big those communities are in total but I will say I've been surprised at how many under 10 child avatar have come out about this.

[Phil Deakins]

21 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I thought if a child went to a moderate sim they had to immediatly tp out lest they get ARed for being in the presence of a nude adult

No they don't. But, if they see that there are nude people, or nude people turn up, then they shouldn't stick around.

ETA:
I was mistaken. See Rowan's reply below.

Edited May 16 by Phil Deakins

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

brodiac is talking about all the unjustified flak etc. that child avs have received through the years. The new rules may well be the final straw that broke camel's back for some of them, which would be understandable. Even so, LL is doing exactly the right thing, imo.

 

Yes exactly. 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

6 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

BUT the TOS changes have nothing to do with contempt for child avatars. ***play isn't a kink, sexualized situations with children is not a kink.

I've never seen so much pushback from a company trying to do the right thing.  It's really rather mindboggling.

perhaps you can explain how the new rules will stop pedo crimes, because i dont see how it will have any effect at all.

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 minute ago, brodiac90 said:

They don't, that is a resident problem. In fact, all of the moles and Lindens I've interacted with on my child avatar have been nothing but lovely. 

The push back isn't about the aim, it's about the execution. I imagine only pedofiles disagree with what LL is aiming to do. 

hmm, I  have never seen it. I was part of Beyou for 2 years and everyone there was nice, as far as I could tell.  I honestly do get wanting to play a child avatar.  It was always fun to interact with them, at least the ones I came across.

There is a child avatar that has multiple child alts that frequently comes to the club I go to. She plays a child anywhere from a very young toddler to a teenager as well as a dolly.  The only time that she is not allowed in the club is if it is doing an event that allows us to be topless which really is only the Woodstock theme set.   Everyone treats her with respect and caring.  

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

perhaps you can explain how the new rules will stop pedo crimes, because i dont see how it will have any effect at all.

perhaps I don't need to explain anything to you.  Ask LL if you are concerned and/or make yourself taller.

[Phil Deakins]

@Arielle Popstar

Yes, it has been happening. I haven't suggested that it wouldn't happen. I'm saying that the phrase "large number", relative to SL's population, will never happen. Those who are banned don't count. We're talking about voluntary departures because of the rules.

Those who have gone to OpenSim will probably find what they want there. I abandoned a nice sea-front piece of free land there recently because there was so much ag*play, and not much normal living. At least some of the ones who have gone may well belong in that sort of environment.

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Yes, they do, even on G land. 

Well, no.  Since nudity is NOT allowed on General, the nude adult avatar is the who can be ARed.  

[Sadvhi]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I thought if a child went to a moderate sim they had to immediatly tp out lest they get ARed for being in the presence of a nude adult

Yesterday I was on a Moderate sim standing right next to a naked woman who was using a lewd gesture. Fortunately, I had already made the decision to use an alt when fishing, so was not wearing a child avatar at the time. I'm still debating on whether or not to continue using my child avatar to explore or shop on Moderate sims. I will have to sometimes, when I want to demo certain items or animations in a store.

[brodiac90]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

@Arielle Popstar

Yes, it has been happening. I haven't suggested that it wouldn't happen. I'm saying that the phrase "large number", relative to SL's population, will never happen. Those who are banned don't count. We're talking about voluntary departures because of the rules.

Those who have gone to OpenSim will probably find what they want there. I abandoned a nice sea-front piece of free land there recently because there was so much ag*play, and not much normal living. At least some of the ones who have gone may well belong in that sort of environment.

I think 'large numbers,' needs to be taken into context. When we say things like that we're not referring to the general SL population but the kid community. 

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Sadvhi said:

Yesterday I was on a Moderate sim standing right next to a naked woman who was using a lewd gesture. Fortunately, I had already made the decision to use an alt when fishing, so was not wearing a child avatar at the time. I'm still debating on whether or not to continue using my child avatar to explore or shop on Moderate sims. I will have to sometimes, when I want to demo certain items or animations in a store.

Q: What if I am hanging out in a Moderate rated region while using a child avatar and someone shows up that is naked?

A: As long as the child presenting Resident is not engaging in adult activities and is not in an area promoting or dedicated to adult activity, then the child presenting Resident will not have action taken against them. Our investigations take context into account, and though we understand that any changes in guidelines can cause concern, please know that our team is careful and thoughtful when reviewing information. As a more direct example, if you are using a child avatar and are shopping or exploring in a Moderate region that is not promoting nudity or sexual activity, and a nude avatar shows up next to you, no action will be taken against you as long as you are not actively engaging in any behavior that sexualizes minors or your child avatar.

[brodiac90]

I

Edited May 16 by brodiac90

[Phil Deakins]

1 minute ago, brodiac90 said:

I think 'large numbers,' needs to be taken into context. When we say things like that we're not referring to the general SL population but the kid community. 

It may be a relevant phrase if used about the kid community, but that's not the context in which that phrase was used - twice