So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Denim Robonaught]

4 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

If, then protected. In the sense, that everyone who loves SL needs protection from unpleasant encounters with the media or the FBI playing hardball with Linden Lab over some ugly things.

Protected ma butt. Tightening the rules to a zero tolerance policy only moves the actual offenders to private places with banlines, whitelists and privacy, while the rest of us "normal" people suffer unneeded consequences for offenders that aren't there anymore.

[Vivienne Schell]

12 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

- loss of access
- loss of inventory
- easier to target.

but they're not being punished

Tell me, if you had the choice: Either accept moderate (and i say MODERATE) compromises OR the loss of the entire platform following a Media campaign (Paedo Paradise SL) or something even more deadly - what would you opt for?

Gambling was not banned from SL because of gambling, but due to the circumstances (political climate, legal things). And consider that the Lab usually only acts if there is no othr way out but to act and change something.

[Kathlen Onyx]

24 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

- easier to target.

but they're not being punished

How so?

[Vivienne Schell]

11 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

Protected ma butt. Tightening the rules to a zero tolerance policy only moves the actual offenders to private places with banlines, whitelists and privacy, while the rest of us "normal" people suffer unneeded consequences for offenders that aren't there anymore.

Unforttunately you are right, but fortunately banlists, whitelists and privacy keeps them away from places where the public can easily get a pretty devastating impression.

[Coffee Pancake]

This strawman gets any bigger you're going to have trouble killing it ..

[Denim Robonaught]

16 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Tell me, if you had the choice: Either accept moderate (and i say MODERATE) compromises OR the loss of the entire platform following a Media campaign (Paedo Paradise SL) or something even more deadly - what would you opt for?

Gambling was not banned from SL because of gambling, but due to the circumstances (political climate, legal things). And consider that the Lab usually only acts if there is no othr way out but to act and change something.

How would you feel if you lost 20,000L$ in skins?
Now suppose you had four kids, and they all lost that.

I know the acts of god policy. That doesn't make it right or completely necessary.

 

Edited May 7 by Denim Robonaught

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Unforttunately you are right, but fortunately banlists, whitelists and privacy keeps them away from places where the public can easily get a pretty devastating impression.

SL has been weathering devastating impressions for 20 years without much qualm and if it was that much of a problem then wouldn't it be better to restrict nudity for all ages to Adult sims only? Personally I think you're grasping for excuses but then you really shouldn't have a problem with restrictions to any age that might create a bad impression to the FBI or general Public.

[Denim Robonaught]

9 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Unforttunately you are right, but fortunately banlists, whitelists and privacy keeps them away from places where the public can easily get a pretty devastating impression.

I knew you were going to use that as an argument

[Denim Robonaught]

17 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

How so?

Any kid not wearing a modesty patch, or near a nude person is vulnerable to being AR'ed. Any nude person near a kid will also be vulnerable to being AR'ed

Edited May 7 by Denim Robonaught
alteration

[Arwyn Quandry]

A point I've been thinking about:

I enjoy shopping. Sometimes I wind up at a clothes shop on G-rated land and want to demo. It's a little nerve-wracking changing clothing on G land because nudity isn't allowed. I've yet to have any issues with being reported for a nip slip while putting on a new shirt but I always wonder about clothing mainstores that use G land and why they make that choice. It seems weird to put your customers in the awkward position of having to overzealously cover their bits while trying your items.

[Vivienne Schell]

1 minute ago, Denim Robonaught said:

How would you feel if you lost 20,000L$ in skins?
Now suppose you had four kids, and they all lost that.

I know the acts of god policy. That doesn't make it right or completely necessary.

And secondly, i would agree with

 

Come on, don´t tell me you that people running a Child Avi run 20 Child Avis. Or do you think they change their skin 20 times a week? A pretty good skin is like 500-1000 Lindens. Also, why the hell do they need genitals painted on their skin when they are CHILD avis? Finally, tell me ONE comparable, commercial game or virtual reality where child avatars displaying genitals are accepted (other than open grid).

[Piper Kelly]

3 hours ago, Madi Melodious said:

What I find funny about this.  About 200 pages back the adult avatars where puzzled why we were fighting for the right to run naked on moderate land.  When we were doing no such thing.    Now they are griping because we don't want them running naked on moderate land.    When the question was brought up we might ask them to give up that "right",  you can taste the indignity in the air.  

The thing is we are allowed to run around naked on moderate land.  We are fully in compliance with the TOS that's been in place forever.   If someone wants to run around as a toddler which is there right,  its also up to them in doing so they comply with the rules in place,  which is not to be in the vicinity of partial or fully nude avatars.   It is LL's platform and they get to do what they feel is right for them.   If you look at the size of the adult AV population of SL verses the size of those playing children, alienating us would be suicidal for LL. 

 

And on a practical note, I imagine its a rarity for adult av's to be just wandering around naked on moderate land.    Yes I sail with my friend topless as do many others, which to me would seem the most likely scenario,  but by the time everything resses  the boat is probably exiting the sim and a non-issue.  Perhaps beaches as well, but I'm sure there are beaches on G land for child av's to hang out.

 

What you are asking is to change the rules for most,  just to accommodate the wants of a few.

[Denim Robonaught]

2 minutes ago, Arwyn Quandry said:

A point I've been thinking about:

I enjoy shopping. Sometimes I wind up at a clothes shop on G-rated land and want to demo. It's a little nerve-wracking changing clothing on G land because nudity isn't allowed. I've yet to have any issues with being reported for a nip slip while putting on a new shirt but I always wonder about clothing mainstores that use G land and why they make that choice. It seems weird to put your customers in the awkward position of having to overzealously cover their bits while trying your items.

In the old days there were no unpack scripts, and with a norez zone you were forced to TP home to get to your demo outfit .

[Coffee Pancake]

Moving the goal posts ..

2 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Come on, don´t tell me you that people running a Child Avi run 20 Child Avis. Or do you think they change their skin 20 times a week? A pretty good skin is like 500-1000 Lindens. Also, why the hell do they need genitals painted on their skin when they are CHILD avis? Finally, tell me ONE comparable, commercial game or virtual reality where child avatars displaying genitals are accepted (other than open grid).

Move the goalposts more ..

No one has asked questions about that.

The new rules are broadly welcome and we're getting clarification on the parts we raised questions about.

But some people INSIST on making it weird .. hundreds of pages just making it weird.

Not helping anyone by making it weird.

[Luna Bliss]

25 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This strawman gets any bigger you're going to have trouble killing it ..

haha love it...remembering this line...

[brodiac90]

19 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

How would you feel if you lost 20,000L$ in skins?
Now suppose you had four kids, and they all lost that.

I know the acts of god policy. That doesn't make it right or completely necessary.

 

Without looking through my purchasing history I won't know for sure but I estimate I'm going to lose between L$5000-L$6000 in skins if the modesty layers can't be implemented in such a way that old ones are useable while being complaint with the new rules. One skin was a super rare gacha (when they were a thing) and cost me L$1800 alone. 

[Denim Robonaught]

2 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Come on, don´t tell me you that people running a Child Avi run 20 Child Avis. Or do you think they change their skin 20 times a week? A pretty good skin is like 500-1000 Lindens. Also, why the hell do they need genitals painted on their skin when they are CHILD avis? Finally, tell me ONE comparable, commercial game or virtual reality where child avatars displaying genitals are accepted (other than open grid).

You're joking right? If i go to a skin store I can pick up a skin color in five different variations, various colors. some skins have baked layer variants, I keep using my older skins, and thats just for one store; The list goes on and on, not to mention the skins running over 1500 and children's avies tend to be on the more expensive side.

Secondly I never said anything about genitals.

[Madi Melodious]

My skins cost me 4800k, each.  I have three of them.  

Edited May 7 by Madi Melodious

[Vivienne Schell]

2 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

You're joking right? If i go to a skin store I can pick up a skin color in five different variations, various colors. some skins have baked layer variants, I keep using my older skins, and thats just for one store; The list goes on and on, not to mention the skins running over 1500 and children's avies tend to be on the more expensive side.

Secondly I never said anything about genitals.

Fine, then ask the skin creator of your choice for an updated skin. What exactly is your problem?

[brodiac90]

Just now, Vivienne Schell said:

Fine, then ask the skin creator of your choice for an updated skin. What exactly is your problem?

In Madi's case that isn't an option as the person who created the skins for her avatar is no longer in SL. Her body will never be updated either. 

[Denim Robonaught]

4 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

You're joking right? If i go to a skin store I can pick up a skin color in five different variations, various colors. some skins have baked layer variants, I keep using my older skins, and thats just for one store; The list goes on and on, not to mention the skins running over 1500 and children's avies tend to be on the more expensive side.

Secondly I never said anything about genitals.

Oh and that doesn't include the new bodies and/or skins you will be obligated to buy if the body makers can't find a solution to update.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

23 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

How would you feel if you lost 20,000L$ in skins?
Now suppose you had four kids, and they all lost that.

I know the acts of god policy. That doesn't make it right or completely necessary.

 

Second life is constantly changing. The same arguments were said when mesh clothing was released. Then mesh bodies, making 95% of previously made clothing and accessories useless.
 

will not be hard for child skin makers to change their skins. Hell even pre mesh avatars had panties and bras drawn on skins. 
 

 There is absolutely no reason for bathing suit bits to be on child avatars. And it concerns me that there are and now it needs to change. 
 

 To be honest all they have to do is go into library and use an old Ruth or whoever the boy was. There are underpants on that skin afaik just use a new head/skin….

 

[Vivienne Schell]

2 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

In Madi's case that isn't an option as the person who created the skins for her avatar is no longer in SL. Her body will never be updated either. 

The same happened to gazillion of people who bought some scripted stuff ages ago which was rendered obsolete by LSL changes. They did not make up 200 pages of whining over that.

[brodiac90]

6 minutes ago, SpiritSparrow Skydancer said:

 There is absolutely no reason for bathing suit bits to be on child avatars. And it concerns me that there are and now it needs to change. 
 

Madi and I aren't talking about bits.

We're talking about kids skins that apart from not having a modesty layer don't actully show anthing and already resemble barbie dolls. The only difference between the skins will be the modesty layer. 

I agree with you about genitalia not being on kid's clothing. 

Edited May 7 by brodiac90

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Vivienne Schell said:

5 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

In Madi's case that isn't an option as the person who created the skins for her avatar is no longer in SL. Her body will never be updated either. 

The same happened to gazillion of people who bought some scripted stuff ages ago which was rendered obsolete by LSL changes. They did not make up 200 pages of whining over that.

People tend to stop whining when you pay attention to their feelings...when you show some consideration for their side of things.