arton Rotaru Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Yeah, most people I know are trying to keep resources as low as they can. Scripting etc... Sure there are always new people who just learn to build, use bad scripts and so on. But that's Second Life. And I think it's great that it is that way. Anybody can build here. I like it! If I want high performance, I plug in a PS3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 leliel Mirihi wrote: ... However that is orthogonal to the high poly counts in SL causing low frame rates on less than top end systems. So we are expected to make garbage looking wow crap to satisfy some miniscule number of people that are broke and cannot afford an upgrade much less afford to buy anything in SL. Right. Expect more highly detailed attachments than ever. Better find a way to upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Ann Otoole wrote: leliel Mirihi wrote: ... However that is orthogonal to the high poly counts in SL causing low frame rates on less than top end systems. So we are expected to make garbage looking wow crap to satisfy some miniscule number of people that are broke and cannot afford an upgrade much less afford to buy anything in SL. Right. Expect more highly detailed attachments than ever. Better find a way to upgrade. Last I checked my computer was faster than yours, Ann. Why does everything have to be extremes with you? Why is it either high poly and looks great or low poly and looks bad? When did I ever say people had to make things that look like they were from WoW? That video you posted of Battlefield 3 looks great, but it has a lower poly count than a lot of SL. Why can't we build stuff like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greene Paine Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Nicely put. That's what I've been trying to say (and have said many times) but it just doesnt connect. Low poly = Halo 3 or Gears of War or even Crysis. Low poly can look great. Second Lifes problem so far has been lack of mesh, and lack of any sort of pressure to optimize. Also I don't see how showing us a crappy LL sim is proof of anything. LL has been forced to use it's own garbage like the rest of us. Mesh is a tool that can free content creators (and artists) to make game optimized assets to make everything better. BUT. This makes no since if the accounting system is not evenly applied. People will just keep using prims or sculpties in applications where mesh would be better simply to exploit this. That brings me full circle to the point of this thread: Impliment accounting systems and limitations across everything equally so that SL will become a place where lag is a thing of the past. Sure it will break a few items, but just remake them. The amount of content to be completely broken will be very small, and some things might even cost LESS prims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nix Manx Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Vivienne Schell wrote: "In this case Art is defined by the tools" No. You only think so because you obviously are so focussed on your Blender UI that you missed some elementary lessons on the history of art and culture. Art is *never* defined as art by the tools the artist uses. And Ann is right, you frankly insult every artist in SL, and therefore entire Second Life. "if you dont adapt you get left behind and SL will get left behind" Your social darwinism is amusing, but people like you miss the point if it comes to intelligent adaptive behavior: YOU must adapt to Second Life or you will not even be let in. Why is it assumed that artists are somehow superior to 3D content designers, were not in a cathedral here painting a roof, we are using computers to create our designs, if those designs are overly complex and excessive then what should take 2 seconds to look at takes 2 minutes to load or in many cases never. Whats the point of 'art' if you cant view it? In terms of rendering and streaming content which is basically what SL is, is a major factor on lag and as pointed out there are many types of lag all of which are undesirable, rendering lag which is common is caused by inefficient designs which use far more prims/sculpties than necessary which also results in streaming lag due to the number of individual textures and script lag. Then add server lag due to poor coding. It all results in an unpleasant experience making many beautiful and breathtaking sims out of bounds, it doesnt matter what the history of art is, it doesnt matter how you define it and an insult can be given but it must also be taken, in some cases they are taken far too easily from a simple factual statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivienne Schell Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 "Why is it assumed that artists are somehow superior to 3D content designers" The 3D modeller who does not want to qualify to be an artist is either practising understatement or not willing to adapt to immersive virtual realities or the final sense of any creativity. This person might be a decent modeller, but Second Life is not Blender, not Maya nor anything else. It´s not Crysis (where high paid coders and high paid 3D artists create a closed atmosphere for the cause of strict gameplay) It is Second Life. People who ignore what Second Life and Virtual Reality is all about ( it´s definately *not* verticles and polygon count and *not* cost calcutaions), are simply on the wrong track and will - if their destructive impact gets unleashed - do much more harm to Second Life than any 256 prim boot ever will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivienne Schell Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 "Second Lifes problem so far has been lack of mesh." That´s the point which proves that people like you do not have the slightest idea of anything happening outside of your Blender UI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 leliel Mirihi wrote: Last I checked my computer was faster than yours, Ann. Why does everything have to be extremes with you? Why is it either high poly and looks great or low poly and looks bad? When did I ever say people had to make things that look like they were from WoW? That video you posted of Battlefield 3 looks great, but it has a lower poly count than a lot of SL. Why can't we build stuff like that? How would you know what I am running unless you are a Linden in which case your posting here in this context would be very questionable. Are you a Linden in here attempting to drum up support for LL's mesh implementation that has already been eschewed by the previously supportive modeler community? As for polygons in the BF3 vid you must have not examined it if you think there are fewer polys than SL Just the polys of the hundred or more avatars is more than SL plus all the detail. BTW to run BF3 requires quite a fancy machine and the latest nvidia card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivienne Schell Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 "That video you posted of Battlefield 3 looks great, but it has a lower poly count than a lot of SL. Why can't we build stuff like that?" Beacuse you did not apply for a job at Electronic Arts, i suppose. Go ahead, try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Nix Manx wrote: .. It all results in an unpleasant experience making many beautiful and breathtaking sims out of bounds, it doesnt matter what the history of art is, it doesnt matter how you define it and an insult can be given but it must also be taken, in some cases they are taken far too easily from a simple factual statement. It doesn't matter what you think. You are not a mandatory visitor or judge. In fact you have no right to judge the works of others. If your computer cannot handle SL then buy a new one. (it won't help because the issue is in the region simulator code) Otherwise you can keep your opinion to yourself. Mesh is not the panacea/savior for SL. In fact LL's current beta implementation of mesh is so crippled that few are considering using it at all. I am but only for vehicles and avatar attachments because the prim equivalence system has little meaning there. The moving high vertice sets will make SL look much better. Again the issue with lag is LL's region code. Not user created content. Sorry but it is time LL stopped blaming their customers for LL's simulator issues. Personally I have set my expectations to mesh needing 2 or more years to manifest. The initial release will have little or no effect on SL given the limitations. Best to just wait and see. Asking LL to destroy existing content when LL already has superior and more cost effective competition is amusing at best. If LL destroys content then they will simply drive revenue to the competition. I have never observed LL to have a desire to destroy content. Quite the opposite really. So I will wait and see. I doubt LL will risk lawsuits and loss of revenue because some few non tier paying customers have lousy computers (which doesn't matter anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poenald Palen Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Ann Otoole wrote: leliel Mirihi wrote: ... However that is orthogonal to the high poly counts in SL causing low frame rates on less than top end systems. So we are expected to make garbage looking wow crap to satisfy some miniscule number of people that are broke and cannot afford an upgrade much less afford to buy anything in SL. Right. Expect more highly detailed attachments than ever. Better find a way to upgrade. You are right, angry highpoly-building-to-spite-them-all aside. I mean, if you make this and another mentions it AND shows this post people might seriously not want to buy your stuff because they figure you only added high poly to spite pepole and not add real detail! But, we all know you are sort of joking AND pointing out reality....plus, you never exactly mention YOU would do this for no reason but to add extra polygons. People don't realise that you can make stuff inefficiently and make absolutly zero improvement on looks. Mesh release will possibly teach people this about assets available to them and the prim count might really come to mind when they buy attachments IF everyone pushes their net with downloading...another reason people are wishing to NOT allow people mesh and why people hated sculpties. They just don't load. IT causes issues when every video you see of yourself half your stuff didn't load! So, the makers with snappy stuff that also look good get more recognition as a product that makes sense. It is like clothes in RL, some you buy are purely fo the cool factor, so yeah...they will sell because they are cool! But, if they smell funny because some odd die was used by someone who wanted to spite someone who said the die should be banned!! Wow, wierd lol. You take a risk here, but not many read forums anyway and who has time to care. P.S, the toungue in cheek nature is what I sense a tiny tiny bit due to the fact...well, people can use ctrl+p topen up preferences and turn to the graphics tab. Hit advanced, turn down the 'Object' slider half way and reduce lag...heck, turn it down all the way if you game or basically move quickly in SL! It helps a bit, I like it abotu 3rd away up, plus a few shaders turned off in those little check boxes. BUT, I upgraded. It cost me like 40usd$ or so...I think. One broke, so maybe add that up to a bit more and make it 70usd$ I made about that in SL! Ironically, one of my products is a 20 prim low poly, low texture, or basically low ARC (if you wear it to check texture amounts act.) that doesn't stream much or cause much heck...ok, all physics items cause heck when you use them lol. But, beside that....well, that helped my buy a GPU card! Irony, huh? Now I don't need it so much. It only helps with getting things loaded 1-2 seconds faster...maybe a bitmore, I am downplaying it knowing that people have seriously faster ISP's than I do! So, yeah...who cares about 1-2 seconds? Building things lower will help some people like your product, they will swear by it and enjoy the snappy response. I have heard this sort of thing from someone and noticed it myself. You sort of don't think, but it loads faster and you feel less hastled. The other one...not so quick loading. I hate the blobs of sculptie in my mouselook for so long! I made both, sol...not like I am hating on the competition here! Hell, it it sold one instead of the other...I lose money! I mention it due to wanting to just help with perspective to those who think hitting subsurf two extra times wlil make thier stuff awsome lol. I don't see you or you attachments, so it is not that either. Just a notice on the heard mentality and also a bit more...which I will mention below. There are different markets, different price ranges and different wishes for ones business activities and so on...becuase people are different! We don't need to see all of the extra polys to get the shape right enough sometimes! So, adding extra and not working harder to optimize and improve looks AND trim the fat....well, just makes you look like a n00b OR a spiteful Anne Fan lol. BUT, then again...if we never pushed the tech, the servers and so on we might not get more demand for GPU's and people will not bash older GPU's as garbage. Now, that means we might see higher prices for GPU's! So, bashing GPU's can possibly make us all better off with lower hardware costs! It is tempting to join in with a hearty "Yeah, who uses anything less than a 800mhz core these days anyway!!!" and so on lol. But, I figure I might as well delve into some othe thinking. I could be horribly wrong and there are NOT different markets, the rarity or search words my product comes up under are the sole reason people find and buy! Maybe it is something more sinister that givesa person a reason to buy! Heck, 100$ isn't much of a budget to hurt or stalk another person, or communicate with persons who watch the stalked in their home....you never know! But yeah, funny post Anne is an epic poster and I see this funny agression now and then. She is a funny avatar/character indeed! "Kill their GPU's with overdrive created fire!...literally!" sort of thing, huh? lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Ann Otoole wrote: leliel Mirihi wrote: Last I checked my computer was faster than yours, Ann. Why does everything have to be extremes with you? Why is it either high poly and looks great or low poly and looks bad? When did I ever say people had to make things that look like they were from WoW? That video you posted of Battlefield 3 looks great, but it has a lower poly count than a lot of SL. Why can't we build stuff like that? How would you know what I am running unless you are a Linden in which case your posting here in this context would be very questionable. Are you a Linden in here attempting to drum up support for LL's mesh implementation that has already been eschewed by the previously supportive modeler community? Because you've said on several occasions what your machine is, mostly at SLU but a few times here as well I believe. A Core 2 Due with a GT 240 if I'm not mistaken. Might want to take a look at your own posts before dragging out the conspiracy theories there. As for polygons in the BF3 vid you must have not examined it if you think there are fewer polys than SL Just the polys of the hundred or more avatars is more than SL plus all the detail. BTW to run BF3 requires quite a fancy machine and the latest nvidia card. Ok I'm wrong. Now back up your assertion that BF3 has higher poly counts than SL. Since the game hasn't been released yet that may be a little hard so you can use Crysis or Metro 2033 if you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 To me the difference between sculpts and mesh is simple. Sculpts gives you blobby dull horned armor. Mesh gives you exactly what you modeled. There will be more vertices with mesh where attached accessories are concerned. But we don't need to waste dozens of polys on poles so some savings happen. Hope this makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Vivienne Schell wrote: "That video you posted of Battlefield 3 looks great, but it has a lower poly count than a lot of SL. Why can't we build stuff like that?" Beacuse you did not apply for a job at Electronic Arts, i suppose. Go ahead, try! I'll take that as a joke because otherwise I don't see any relevance in that comment with regards to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Right. Let me guess. You actually run around taking notes on what individuals have in their systems. Perhaps you can also tell me what all of the systems on my intranet are running as well since they have also connected to SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivienne Schell Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 "I'll take that as a joke" No joke. Aren´t you artist enough to apply at EA, or what? Sounds as if you think that you actually can create "stuff like this". What a waste of potential! What a pity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Ann Otoole wrote: Right. Let me guess. You actually run around taking notes on what individuals have in their systems. Perhaps you can also tell me what all of the systems on my intranet are running as well since they have also connected to SL. No I just have a good memory. But what does it matter, nobody cares. Quit trying to look for ulterior motives and conspiracy theories between the lines of what I type and just read my posts already. I seriously do not understand how you can reply to so many of my posts (in this thread and others) yet apparently not have read any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Vivienne Schell wrote: "I'll take that as a joke" No joke. Aren´t you artist enough to apply at EA, or what? Sounds as if you think that you actually can create "stuff like this". What a waste of potential! What a pity! And the point of this is what? I wasn't in the discussion over what qualifies as art. Where are you going with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dain Shan Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 . You will get used to Ann .. se always is that way. Same with Vivienne .. it seems she has the strong urge to look down on anyone who claims to wortk with Blender and actually can do stuff that use less ressources and look better I suspect some envy issues here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poenald Palen Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Good looking lower Poly takes time. Time ='s Money. SL < money than Blizzard pays a artist there. So, Time is not spent on SL stuff because you would need to earn like 35, 000USD$ to equal what they make. Heck, some dude got paid once to make stuff AND sold the items (due to the license he had) as royalty free through an online marketplace and got 32, 000USD?$ JUST at that marketplace...who needs time wasting in SL to lower polycounts? I sometimes spend time lowering my stuff, from scripts, to textures (yes, I still many times upload 2 different versions to see which looks good enough and even try sharpening or squashing it in different dimensions...many here have never uploaded a 512x64, huh? ) and I dont' get any recognition. It is about learning, honey and improving for me. If it leads to amazing stuff (no, it didn't lol) then cool, everyone that buys gets way more than they paid for it when upgrades come around! Otherwise...uh, yeah....it is a waste of time I guess! This is something I seem to excel at...which reminds me! ANother issue. SL is mostly about looking at stuff for many. So, as a creator you make stuff so they can look at it lol. Now, at a track or three you will see them say "remove scritps" and stuff like that. They do this because it is their sim, they feel it works better. So, they ask and heck..if they want to ban you because they hate your hair style they can! WoW is all about gameplay. That is about it, the rest is sort of extra cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poenald Palen Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 leliel Mirihi wrote: Vivienne Schell wrote: "I'll take that as a joke" No joke. Aren´t you artist enough to apply at EA, or what? Sounds as if you think that you actually can create "stuff like this". What a waste of potential! What a pity! And the point of this is what? I wasn't in the discussion over what qualifies as art. Where are you going with this? I think what they are saying is they are not as good as that, don't get paid accordingly and SL will never have totally optimized stuff because of different users wants. Some are here to make it like a doll house. Those dolls are not like robots, they don' t do much. Since we can TP away, something NOT seen in games, we have no choice. BUT, that being said...those who optimize are free to advertise such! If you can make assets like AE can, but don't work there or can't (there are a few reasons for this that are NOT related to skill, just think a minute!) then...well, advertise it! But we are saying...well, we are NOT that good. We are "user created content" people first, then we learn this stuff. If some guy form AE builds amazing stuff in his spare time and all things are equal...well, my extra polies will not save me! Polygons alone are NOT a valuable addition lol. BUT, it it makes things look better than they want to sell to those who like looks, why should they be stopped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Oh I strongly suspect we will be seeing superior content than that produced by the overworked underpaid game art employees of EA for EA. Might even see stuff made by some of them in their precious few off hours since they won't have the limitations of a console game spec and will have the freedom to express themselves. Too bad we can't make custom rigging for hair and tails eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Poenald Palen wrote: leliel Mirihi wrote: Vivienne Schell wrote: "I'll take that as a joke" No joke. Aren´t you artist enough to apply at EA, or what? Sounds as if you think that you actually can create "stuff like this". What a waste of potential! What a pity! And the point of this is what? I wasn't in the discussion over what qualifies as art. Where are you going with this? I think what they are saying is they are not as good as that, don't get paid accordingly and SL will never have totally optimized stuff because of different users wants. And when did I say they couldn't be hobbyist? When did I say LL should prevent hobbyist from making things in SL? They're attacking me over things I never said. All I said was that LL's current prim equivalency system is unfair against meshes. As it stands right now a professional couldn't even make an object that could compete with prims & sculpties in terms of prim cost. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poenald Palen Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Ann Otoole wrote: I don't think destruction of millions of dollars worth of content owned by many thousands of customers would be a good move from the PR and Legal perspective. As for lag? Get an empty region and add 20 or more avatars with no attachments and wearing only system clothes and you will have server side lag. This transition to over 20 avatars cause massive lag arrived with homestead sims. For some reason full regions began to perform like homesteads with the exception they allow more prims. But whatever. Just my observation over time. Something server side appears to have issues with lots of avatars. If you are having client side lag issues then I recommend you upgrade to a GTX560 or better on a new type mobo with a new modern CPU and 4 GB RAM. Then when BF3 is released you will see what a real video game is like lol. Watch that 12 minutes of gameplay trailer for an eye opener. Would love to see SL perform that well. You do realize that mesh is not a solution to all issues and that SL designers will push things to the max (as they will always do) with mesh resulting in identical performance issues but just looking lots better right? OH, yes. You know they changed from one rack unit per simulator to multiple sims on on rack unit...something like that. It became like one CPU per sim, but then they have this federated thing where you sim gets more attention based one needs! The needs of the wheels of my physics object colliding outweighs the needs of you customers colliding with your store walls type of thing lol. "Live long and Lag" is a phrase that might apply here? I know this sounds crazy...but you could always try slamming a bunch of prims around in some kind of game or event and see what happens lol. But I think it is a moment by moment thing, so when you douse this stuff you still lag because this stuff lags...so, equal lagging for all I guess? Not sure. But I heard something about this, took note of it mentally because it affects physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Oh I think you are wrong about making better content. The issue is the usage and how the costing works for specific use cases. In some cases the costing seems unfair. In others the costing only matters at upload since the object(s) will be worn or driven on LL land where PE won't matter. Here is an example: As shown above sized to actual use case size the PE 1s 14 even while linked to a cube with the flight control system (scripts, animations, sounds) But hey let's ramp the size to max allowable and see how the PE looks: 35 prims for a gigantic spaceship that is flyable is not bad and it exceeds the 32 prim limit for a vehicle. I could fly this over LL land (roads, railroads, LL land, waterways, etc.) and not be charged for any prims. Not bad for a L$40 upload fee eh? So it just depends on what the mesh is and the use case for the mesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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