Break Legacy Content!

[Drongle McMahon]

Forget Picasso; think what Gaudi could have made!

 

[Vivienne Schell]

I prefer Stroker for Gaudi!

[Vivienne Schell]

"And who knows, if he could, we might have seen something marvellous eh?"

So what he created is not marvelous enough, eh?

[Dain Shan]

Not in regard to 3D content .. no

[Vivienne Schell]

Not? I thought that planet earth is entirely made of 3D content? And, btw,  he was pretty good in creating sculpties!

[Dain Shan]

Hence the hint that he could probably create something marvellous ..

And if you keep throwing stones .. well i had my laugh

[Nix Manx]

Not? I thought that planet earth is entirely made of 3D content? And, btw,  he was pretty good in creating sculpties!

(argh what no quotes?, come on Linden is 2011!)

 

The difference is that planet earth doesnt have a prim limit nor do the eyes have computer component restrictions. Its not really a realistic comparison.

 

The current problem with sculpties and avatars is the apparent lack of restrictions which just cause massive amounts of lag and as a result create a very unpleasant experience within SL, I went ot an awesome furniture shop the other day and the designs were fantastic however, due to the sheer number of sculpts and the number of avatars on the sim with elaborate and complicated outfits I literally couldnt move, my screen was frequently frozen, my internet was a peak usage and to top it off I have a very good computer, in the end I just left and didnt buy a thing.

To break legacy content wouldnt be a viable solution due to the reasons that have been mentioned in this thread, however, avatar prim limits would be a viable solution, a good idea would be to increase the PE of sculpties and require people to have a premium subscription to exceed say 150 prims per avatar, this would result in more subscriptions for Linden yet provide a very strong incentive for designers and users to restrict prim usage and also encourage mesh clothing to be used instead. Its a win win win situation.

 

 

[Vivienne Schell]

Art is not defined by the tool, the material or the medium. It´s...ahem...just art. And someone pressing an artist to learn Blender, even in SL...oh uh...maybe someone should deprave this person from his Blender UI for a week and send him to some REAL museum or a Char Davies exhibition. The many, many succsessful and highly interesting SL art sims obviously only make him to draw his Blender gun, so encouraging him to visit these would end in a slaughter.

:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

Forget about the limits. Even if this would be a good idea, it´s too late for such limits. Linden Lab missed this in 2003. There are hundredthousands of people out there who paid several million dollars for stuff which exceeds all the here suggested limits by lengths, attachments or whatever. Okay, go ahead and try to scratch that stuff from their inventories without compensation and for no reason but: "Buy mesh instead". And next try to escape their wrath. Compared to THIS slaughter the Blender gun is a peace dove.

The only method to get rid of what you dislike is to make something which looks better, works better, is less laggy and all of this for a lower price, if not as a freebie. But don´t expect that everybody will judge on what art is and what quality is by the tool you use and by your creator background.

 

[leliel Mirihi]

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Vivienne Schell wrote:

Forget about the limits. Even if this would be a good idea, it´s too late for such limits. Linden Lab missed this in 2003. There are hundredthousands of people out there who paid several million dollars for stuff which exceeds all the here suggested limits by lengths, attachments or whatever. Okay, go ahead and try to scratch that stuff from their inventories without compensation and for no reason but: "Buy mesh instead". And next try to escape their wrath. Compared to THIS slaughter the Blender gun is a peace dove.

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I already pointed out a way to give prims and scultpies a realistic cost while not returning any legacy content. It may not be the best solution, the over all scene complexity may shoot way up because of it, but it does work.

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The only method to get rid of what you dislike is to make something which looks better, works better, is less laggy and all of this for a lower price, if not as a freebie.

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That's impossible to do as long as meshes have a realistic cost and prims & sculpties do not.

 

 

[Vivienne Schell]

"That's impossible to do as long as meshes have a realistic cost and prims & sculpties do not."

I am not techie enough to judge on this. I only know that, even when you are right with your suggestion, it surely is possible to make something which looks better and works better and is less laggy than some of the existant stuff. The "cost" factor does not define the quality of your creation, not even in SL.

[leliel Mirihi]

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Vivienne Schell wrote:

"That's impossible to do as long as meshes have a realistic cost and prims & sculpties do not."

I am not techie enough to judge on this. I only know that, even when you are right with your suggestion, it surely is possible to make something which looks better and works better and is less laggy than some of the existant stuff. The "cost" factor does not define the quality of your creation, not even in SL.

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It's the ratio of cost to quality that matters. Yes you can make something that looks better and is less laggy with mesh, but it will use 40% more prims than a sculptied object that looks almost as good. Which do you think users with choose? LL's current prim equivalency system is dooming mesh to failure.

[Nix Manx]

In this case Art is defined by the tools, prims, sculpties and meshes are all tools, limits would define what people can wear, want to wear your 100 prims hair, your 100 prim jewelry, your 200 prim shoes, you should have to pick and choose or buy premium to raise the limit or god forbid, buy something will less prim usage. If we continue at this rate there wont be a Second Life because Lindens wont be able to afford super servers and thus the SL experience will be a virtual slideshow limited to those with nasa super computers.

 

You cant say that an artist should have no limits, because when you get right down to it, people in SL are not artists, they are 3D content designers, with 3D constraints. Im not saying that legacy content should be outright broken, but if you want to wear the above said shoes you are going to have to pick and choose or buy new content (which happens all the time btw) with more conservative server weight, like meshes for example.

 

Like everything, if you dont adapt you get left behind and SL will get left behind, social platforms are in thier infancy, everyone is jumping on the bandwagon and a serious company will come along and do what second life does but loads better (i'm not talking about these amateur copies out there)

[Ann Otoole]

 

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Nix Manx wrote:

...  You cant say that an artist should have no limits, because when you get right down to it, people in SL are not artists, ..

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You don't know much about SL do you? You just insulted every artist in SL. SL is a canvas. We are artists. We use various software to create simulation components as parts of our works.

This argument by geeks that artists should leave so the geeks can be the only ones hawking their warez is getting seriously old.

Mesh, as it appears right now, is not going to be a panacea and savior for the grid at all. However the high vertice shoes and boots and accessories made by the artists are going to be outstanding. So will the aircraft, boats, vehicles, and spaceships.

You can mentally prep yourself for the reality that the benefits of mesh will not permeate the grid for at least 2 years. By then open sim grid simulators will be capable of handling hundreds of avatars per simulator. You see the issue is not the content in SL. The issue is the SL simulator code that cannot handle over 20 avatars.

[Drongle McMahon]

"So will the aircraft, boats, vehicles, and spaceships."

Interesting - Why is that? Not counting towards parcel limits? Wearing them? I guess you have explained elsewhere. Can you give a pointer?

[Ann Otoole]

If you rez your blade runner dirigible in a linden road rez spot and board it then you pay nothing. As for the issue of prims? well you do need to be careful with scripting to ensure you don't get smacked too hard if you hit a full parcel. Flying or using linden roads, land, railways, and waterways is quite enough fun to keep you busy for hours.

I know you probably saw me flying around mesh beta in a spaceship. It sizes all the way up to 64 meters. The prim count gets above 32 yet i can still fly because to LSL it is only 2 prims. I suspect LL has to overhaul the LSL codebase if they want to apply limits there. Much content destruction will ensue if they do.

Like I said I expect the transition to mesh to require at least 2 years. So I decided I need not hurry. The popular 3rd party viewers must have full mesh capabilities before mesh is commercially viable anyway and that is probably a year out.

My philosophy is to just go along for the ride, not stress, and give feedback/jiras as need be. It will get there eventually.

[Vivienne Schell]

"In this case Art is defined by the tools"

No. You only think so because you obviously are so focussed on your Blender UI that you missed some elementary lessons on the history of art and culture. Art is *never* defined as art by the tools the artist uses. And Ann is right, you frankly insult every artist in SL, and therefore entire Second Life.

"if you dont adapt you get left behind and SL will get left behind"

Your social darwinism is amusing, but people like you miss the point if it comes to intelligent adaptive behavior: YOU must adapt to Second Life or you will not even be let in.

[Greene Paine]

Your art argument is amusing but this is first and formost a social platform, and I sir will not stay in SL long if I am forced to be lagged to hell and back by your 'art'. Wake up and smell the coffee. I'm sure artists would love to use 4 million tris per 'art work' if they could. But dose that mean we all need super computers now? No.

If you are a sculpter, you learn to work with stone.

If you are a painter, you learn to work with paint.

If you are a 3d artist, you learn to work with 3d.

If you are a 3d SECONDLIFE artist, you learn to work with 3d AND technical limitations to prevent lag.

[Ann Otoole]

Most of us don't get lag from polygons. Only from avatars in a sim because the sim code is crippled to 20 avatars max. Or something. More and more people are observing this 20 avatar clamp.

Buy a super computer. It will not help. Go in a sim with 30 avatars with no scripts or attachments and no content and the sim will still lag and you will have none to blame but LL.

In the meantime IBM gave the sim code that handles hundreds of avatars in a sim to open sim.

The lag problem resides in the LL sim systems and code. Will mesh help? only in the visual quality of the experience because the detail will be higher for the same polygon count.

Go watch the battlefield 3 12 minutes of gameplay trailer and then come back and try to justify your argument. You can't. The lag is on LL's side in the sim code. Perhaps the issue relates to LL having to contend with all adjacent regions. Video game "maps" are single sims in SL terms. Oh and be sure to listen to Macarena while watching the gameplay vid to add some SL to it.

 

The issue is not just polygons with modern video cards. The issue is much more complex and this is not being discussed outside LL.

[Greene Paine]

I appreciate your adultness about your aargument, but I must disagree. You state a lot of 'facts' but I'd like to see some hard facts on this. I personaly expirence no lag in empty sims. Also from what you've typed it sounds like your trying to say:

Battlefield 3 = lots of polygons

Battlefield 3 = no lag

SL = less polygons

Therefore... more polygons <> lag.

This I have to disagree with because SL is highly unoptimized to the point where it actually has way more polygons and textures than Battlefield 3 would dare to have. So why does it look like crap? (SL I mean) Because of the creators, a lack of pressure to optimize builds (LLs fault), and a previous lack of tools to make optimized stuff. (mesh)

Take for example that in comercial games like that the textures are reused many times, and all completely optimized to the bare minimun sizes required, and all models are preened for perfect LOD to cut out detail at long distances. Not to mention the artists are required to work within limits for game preformance.

SL is not like this. A cube alone has a buttload of verts. (Check it out sometime, ctrl + shift + R is it?) Anywho SL triangle wise I heard once has more per sceene than crysis. Where are all thoes tris? Most are tottaly wasted.

There are a lot of things LL can do on their end too, im not gunna defend them there, but this is a HUGE source of lag. Even if the server side code could support 500 avatars, the client would DIE. (Except maby with imposters it would be doable? I'm not sure how that's handled on a computational level.)

[leliel Mirihi]

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Greene Paine wrote:

 Anywho SL triangle wise I heard once has more per sceene than crysis. Where are all thoes tris? Most are tottaly wasted.

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This is definitely true. Crysis on enthusiat settings only hits 1.5M tris in a few, complex scenes. Where as in SL is trivial to find sims pushing 8M tris and I've seen some as high as 17M tris.

[Ann Otoole]

Be careful who you defend.

How many hundreds of avatar NPCs are visible in the scenes of the BF3 gameplay?

Again part of this issue relates to SL, unlike ANY other game, has to contend with adjacent simulators.

Try monitoring your port connections to SL at different draw distances. I am not going to state the numbers because this fact of life is best observed in person. NO other video game must contend with what sl ust contend with. How many simulators are you connected to at 512 draw distance?

Perhaps LL needs to use "fog of war" to contend with distance.

OK so just to make sure you watched the entire thing to grasp the reality of game dev in 2011: What happened in the final 2 scenes of the BF3 trailer?

[Ann Otoole]

 

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

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Greene Paine wrote:

 Anywho SL triangle wise I heard once has more per sceene than crysis. Where are all thoes tris? Most are tottaly wasted.

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This is definitely true. Crysis on enthusiat settings only hits 1.5M tris in a few, complex scenes. Where as in SL is trivial to find sims pushing 8M tris and I've seen some as high as 17M tris.

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This is a LL built region:

 

LL did this. Next?

[leliel Mirihi]

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Ann Otoole wrote:

 

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

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Greene Paine wrote:

 Anywho SL triangle wise I heard once has more per sceene than crysis. Where are all thoes tris? Most are tottaly wasted.

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This is definitely true. Crysis on enthusiat settings only hits 1.5M tris in a few, complex scenes. Where as in SL is trivial to find sims pushing 8M tris and I've seen some as high as 17M tris.

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This is a LL built region:

[...]

LL did this. Next?

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Yeah, LL did that, using the same tools that we use. The point was not who did what but that the poly counts in SL are insanely high. That's why this prim equivalency system makes me so mad. LL is finally giving us the tools to make low poly optimized builds but crippling it with an accounting system that makes it unsellable in many cases.

[Ann Otoole]

The constant arguments are that all the lag in SL is caused by LL's customers. I have provided proof that argument is garbage.

 

 

[leliel Mirihi]

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Ann Otoole wrote:

The constant arguments are that all the lag in SL is caused by LL's customers. I have provided proof that argument is garbage.

 

 

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There is more then one kind of lag. You've been around long enough to know this by now. I'm not disagreeing with you about LL's servers not performing as well as the should. However that is orthogonal to the high poly counts in SL causing low frame rates on less than top end systems.