Should I put my real-life gender in my woman avatars' profiles?

[Rowan Amore]

If someone is seeing that much hatred against trans people in SL, maybe you shouldn't go to those places?  I really haven't seen much of it myself or heard anything negative from people who use both male an female avatars.  I also think it's a small number of people who assume a man using a female avatar is transgender.  

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's good you haven't had any ire directed your way for swapping genders. It's important to note though, that Male2Female transgender individuals have a lot more hostility directed toward them than Female2Male transgender individuals do.

If you mean me, I'm not trans, though. I'm genderfluid. If I were ever forced to be technical about it (which I never, ever am), I'd put myself under the non-binary umbrella. Off to the left, where the frozen chocolate mudslides are.

In my 17+ years bopping in and out of Second Life doing my thang, nobody has ever asked if or implied that I was trans. You'd be amazed at how many people immediately understand female but genderfluid (lots do!).

No I've never thought you were a transgender person. Just pointing out that many have a much more difficult time with a male who either swaps genders or is transgender. This does make me wonder why the same proportion of hostility is not directed to females who do so.  I'm sure there's reasons! lol  Not in the mood to research theories though.

I'm wondering where you're going that you have such acceptance?  I remember earlier you and Paul talking about all sorts of places where people are upset about gender switching...are those different places?

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

where the frozen chocolate mudslides are.

Milkshake..lemonade..fudge factory! Got it, mudslides are made at the fudge factory!

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

If someone is seeing that much hatred against trans people in SL, maybe you shouldn't go to those places?

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

If someone is seeing that much hatred against trans people in SL, maybe you shouldn't go to those places?  I really haven't seen much of it myself or heard anything negative from people who use both male an female avatars.  I also think it's a small number of people who assume a man using a female avatar is transgender.  

Mhm! My friends who actually are trans haven't had anywhere near the amount of hate in-world being suggested here. I'd know, because I'd be first in line to throw some hands (respectfully).

They do face some struggles in RL, but I can't do much about that other than be a good shoulder (though, if need be...😂).

 

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

No I've never thought you were a transgender person. Just pointing out that many have a much more difficult time with a male who either swaps genders or is transgender. This does make me wonder why the same proportion of hostility is not directed to females who do so.  I'm sure there's reasons! lol  Not in the mood to research theories though.

I'm wondering where you're going that you have such acceptance?  I remember earlier you and Paul talking about all sorts of places where people are upset about gender switching...are those different places?

As to the first part, I don't know to be honest. Can't say I ever thought about it. I've known a few people over the years who gender swapped all the time. More than a few. More like a lot. I could've sworn there was a group for it at some point, but I can't even remember. That was a looong time ago if so. Anyhoo, most of them were men and they never expressed receiving any grief over it.

As for the second - where I'm going? In SL you mean? Everywhere. Anywhere. I'm always in mens stores, womens stores, fantasy stores, furry stores, shopping events, fantasy events, occasionally run around parks, art sims, scenic sims for photo shoots, themed sims, used to love hanging at the beach before my favorite spot closed, wherever friends happen to drag me to (DJ sets and the like).

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

As for the second - where I'm going? In SL you mean? Everywhere. Anywhere. I'm always in mens stores, womens stores, fantasy stores, furry stores, shopping events, fantasy events, occasionally run around parks, art sims, scenic sims for photo shoots, themed sims, used to love hanging at the beach before my favorite spot closed, wherever friends happen to drag me to (DJ sets and the like).

No I meant the places Paul commented on that were so hostile (outside SL, and places I hadn't heard of really).

Here where I live (conservative podunk place) even the typical gamers look down on playing opposite gender characters (as I discovered at a website where some from my area of the country participated).

Ahhh ok...so your experiences in SL are a bit more on the surface (not belonging to any communities in a serious way or having romantic relationships).  Yes I doubt you'd get much hostility directed at you via participating with a bit more distance. When becoming close we tend to see how people really feel.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

No I meant the places Paul commented on that were so hostile (outside SL, and places I hadn't heard of really).

Ummmm...you mean YouTube/Twitch and OnlyFans? I was referring to YouTube and streaming personalities - the ones who specifically use anime or cartoon avatars of rather...bouncy women in place of their RL persona. Guys tend to fawn over them, but their RL gender could be entirely ambiguous, yeah.

If you mean OnlyFans, that's a cam site. The on-camera personality is not necessarily the one who responds to personal messages (people are sometimes hired for this work as an actual remote job). I did note that's deceptive, yup, but unsurprising (given no one person can respond to that many messages in a timely manner). Pretty much the same with celebrities and popular influencers and business owners who somehow find the time to tweet all day and answer their DMs on Twitter (hint - no they don't).

 

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Here where I live (conservative podunk place) even the typical gamers look down on playing opposite gender characters (as I discovered at a website where some from my area of the country participated).

Yeah, that happens sometimes. Especially when guys go in thinking they're throwing gold/in-game currency/money at real women (though why they'd be doing that in the first place, I'll never understand). Still, in gaming, it's a really common practice across the board - even in the competitive/esports scene. Who actually worries about the gender of the character they'll be playing if it's the one who has the highest win rate due to their skills. In cases where the choice is purely cosmetic, you still find guys running female skins.

 

12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Ahhh ok...so your experiences in SL are a bit more on the surface (not belonging to any communities in a serious way or having romantic relationships).  Yes I doubt you'd get much hostility directed at you via participating with a bit more distance. When becoming close we tend to see how people really feel.

I've had one friendship last almost two decades and several other multi-year friendships that progressed to outside of SL (Discord, voice, phone). I know all about getting close to people in SL. I don't *date* here anymore, though. Friendships, yes.

[Rowan Amore]

Most of us are talking about SL experiences to keep the thread on topic.  

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Most of us are talking about SL experiences to keep the thread on topic.  

 

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Don't tell me you're suprised?!?

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Ahhh ok...so your experiences in SL are a bit more on the surface (not belonging to any communities in a serious way or having romantic relationships)....

I've had one friendship last almost two decades and several other multi-year friendships that progressed to outside of SL (Discord, voice, phone). I know all about getting close to people in SL. I don't *date* here anymore, though. Friendships, yes.

Wow, you're generous! She put a lot of words in your mouth.

Fighting words!!!!

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Don't tell me you're suprised?!?

I'm Shocked! Shocked, I tell you!!1!!

That someone, when challenged in their viewpoints, should deign to change the topic outside of the OP's scope.

SHOCKED!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Wow, you're generous! She put a lot of words in your mouth.

Fighting words!!!!

Pfft, I always play a tank or healer. I let the DPS do the fighting.

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

friendships

This reminded me of a friend in 2nd life I thought was supportive of the LGBTQ community, but when they had a pretty big tiff with a transgender woman they started calling them "it" or "he" (when previously they referred to them as "she"). When people do this it makes me wonder just how supportive they really were. 

 

[Luna Bliss]

I really hope, @Ayashe Ninetails, that people are more accepting of the LGBTQ+ community within 2nd life (I guess that includes you, a non-binary person, right?).  So I listen to your experience and it's heartening. But then I remember Katherine's difficulties and how rude people were to her, and how some (even on this thread) are quite intolerant of those who are different in many respects. And I remember griefer type people coming in to the forum and espousing their super-conservative views on these matters a couple years ago, and how even an attempt to get a thread dedicated to the LGBTQ+ community was dissed (even though opposing people came in exhibiting their prejudiced views and ruining even an attempt to ask for such a thread, thereby proving one was actually needed!).

I also know that what goes around in 1st life ends up in 2nd life. So I'm afraid, weighing it all, I don't think 2nd life is such an accepting place for the LGBTQ+ community.  Perhaps it's improved, but it has a long way to go.

So I have to say, @Gopi Passiflora,if you venture away from your stated claims of just exploring but not being close to others, be careful!

Edited August 22, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Persephone Emerald]

6 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Do you have friends in real life that are male or female and have the same relationship with both sexes exactly the same?  For me my female relationships are different than relationships I have with males. That's why it matters to me.

6 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I'm talking more about personal things that women might experience that a man cannot. Of course I agree it's not so in every case how women and men really differently.

6 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

If it is non sexual then sure, the relationships I have with male and female friends are the same. Topics of discussion might differ, though not always, but overall it is similar. 

I will definitely discuss some topics with a close female friend in RL that would be difficult to inappropriate to discuss with a male friend. 

As an example: talking about past relationships. This depends on what the other person is comfortable discussing, but the last time I talked about having been in bisexual and polyamorous relationships with a straight guy friend in RL, he ended up getting turned on, which was annoying because I'm not interested in him in that way. If I would have the same kind of discussion with a open-minded female friend or a gay male friend, I'm sure I wouldn't have to censor my discussion so much. 

Another example: talking about past dates or boyfriends. Men don't want to hear that stuff, but women will swap stories. 

Another example: talking about buying clothes, trying them on in fitting rooms or at home, stockings sliding down, etc.

Another example: talking about hair styling or going to a stylist, also talking about any beauty or bath products.

Another example: talking about going to one's OBYN or any "female issues" such as PMS, menopause, etc.

Another example: talking about one's relationship with their mother. It's different for a mother-daughter relationship than it would be for a mother-son relationship. It's also different for a father-son relationship than it would be for a father-daughter relationship.

Another example: talking about males at work or elsewhere who are demeaning, inappropriately touchy or personal, etc.

When a man doesn't have the same frame of reference as another women would have, you just can't have the same kind of conversation with them

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

No I've never thought you were a transgender person. Just pointing out that many have a much more difficult time with a male who either swaps genders or is transgender. This does make me wonder why the same proportion of hostility is not directed to females who do so.  I'm sure there's reasons! lol  Not in the mood to research theories though.

I'm wondering where you're going that you have such acceptance?  I remember earlier you and Paul talking about all sorts of places where people are upset about gender switching...are those different places?

It's the whole Girl in a Guy shirt thing.. Men love it!! \o/  hehehe

[Persephone Emerald]

5 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Ack.

Agree with this. If you ARE RPing, it's a good idea to tell people. You need not reveal any RL info, but just letting people know you're a roleplayer is a nice thing to do.

If my avatar is a wolf-dog, this should be a good indication that I'm roleplaying. Canines don't have the manual dexterity needed to type on a keyboard. If someone insists on relating to me as a real human when my avatar is obviously not human, that can be annoying, but I'll do so in IM, not in public chat.

If I'm inworld or on the forums as Alycia, I prefer for people to relate to her as her character too. In-world they can read her profile, and her 1st life page that says she's in-character. Most of my friends still IM Alycia as if I'm me though, which is a little annoying. Having her refer to Persephone in the third person helps somewhat, but some people really don't want to relate to a fictional character. If I'm in SL not as Persephone though, I likely don't want to talk about my Real Life.

My guy alt isn't friended to many of my regular friends, but his 1st life page says he's an alt and doesn't have a real life.

[Persephone Emerald]

4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

There is a solution to this -- people just need to communicate, knowing that everyone is not relating to 2nd life in the exact way they are.

If you are roleplaying, make that known and ask for consent from someone you're relating to.

If you are being real, then communicate that you are not roleplaying when meeting a new person.

Of course, this requires honesty.  So, sadly, in too many cases, forget that.

I'm not going to ask for consent to present as a fictional character in a cartoon world.

[Luna Bliss]

18 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

5 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

There is a solution to this -- people just need to communicate, knowing that everyone is not relating to 2nd life in the exact way they are.

If you are roleplaying, make that known and ask for consent from someone you're relating to.

If you are being real, then communicate that you are not roleplaying when meeting a new person.

Of course, this requires honesty.  So, sadly, in too many cases, forget that.

I'm not going to ask for consent to present as a fictional character in a cartoon world.

I'm only meaning if a more real life/closer relationship is developing. So context is important here.

I wouldn't ask for consent either if floating around in my man alt or my little kitty avatar, or as any human that's roleplaying.

But if become close to someone, and sensing they are feeling they are sharing real aspects of themselves, then I'd either explain I'm just roleplaying or I'd drop the facade and relate on a real level.

The trick is to be sensitive and realize when this is happening for someone, as I would not want them to feel deceived.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Persephone Emerald]

2 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Silly.

I just wear pink dresses, heels, and shop a frightful amount. That makes me a girl, right?

(Intended as mocking expected 1950s hetero-normative ideas of gender roles. Apologies to anyone who loves pink dresses. Or has a brain in their head.)

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Only if you wear poodle skirts and have big hair. We need all the gender cues we can get.

I think quite a few drag queens wear big hair, but I'm not so sure about the poodle skirts.

(There are drag queens in SL too, and I'm pretty sure they like shopping when they can find clothes in their size.)

[Kathlen Onyx]

34 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I will definitely discuss some topics with a close female friend in RL that would be difficult to inappropriate to discuss with a male friend. 

As an example: talking about past relationships. This depends on what the other person is comfortable discussing, but the last time I talked about having been in bisexual and polyamorous relationships with a straight guy friend in RL, he ended up getting turned on, which was annoying because I'm not interested in him in that way. If I would have the same kind of discussion with a open-minded female friend or a gay male friend, I'm sure I wouldn't have to censor my discussion so much. 

Another example: talking about past dates or boyfriends. Men don't want to hear that stuff, but women will swap stories. 

Another example: talking about buying clothes, trying them on in fitting rooms or at home, stockings sliding down, etc.

Another example: talking about hair styling or going to a stylist, also talking about any beauty or bath products.

Another example: talking about going to one's OBYN or any "female issues" such as PMS, menopause, etc.

Another example: talking about one's relationship with their mother. It's different for a mother-daughter relationship than it would be for a mother-son relationship. It's also different for a father-son relationship than it would be for a father-daughter relationship.

Another example: talking about males at work or elsewhere who are demeaning, inappropriately touchy or personal, etc.

When a man doesn't have the same frame of reference as another women would have, you just can't have the same kind of conversation with them

THIS ^^ - which is why I was confused that so many people on this thread have a hard time with why, when choosing close friends, that it matters what RL sex they are. Not that I should have to explain why I feel that way but apparently it's wrong.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Sam1 Bellisserian

[Luna Bliss]

40 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

This does make me wonder why the same proportion of hostility is not directed to females who do so.

It's the whole Girl in a Guy shirt thing.. Men love it!! \o/  hehehe

lol that's gotta be it!  She looks to cute, definitely not a threat!

Although seriously, I did hear of some guys who murdered a trans man, not far from where I live actually. But there were complexities in the whole situation -- the trans man had established a romantic relationship with the woman when the murderer wanted her as his own.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Ayashe Ninetails]

6 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I will definitely discuss some topics with a close female friend in RL that would be difficult to inappropriate to discuss with a male friend. 

As an example: talking about past relationships. This depends on what the other person is comfortable discussing, but the last time I talked about having been in bisexual and polyamorous relationships with a straight guy friend in RL, he ended up getting turned on, which was annoying because I'm not interested in him in that way. If I would have the same kind of discussion with a open-minded female friend or a gay male friend, I'm sure I wouldn't have to censor my discussion so much. 

Another example: talking about past dates or boyfriends. Men don't want to hear that stuff, but women will swap stories. 

Another example: talking about buying clothes, trying them on in fitting rooms or at home, stockings sliding down, etc.

Another example: talking about hair styling or going to a stylist, also talking about any beauty or bath products.

Another example: talking about going to one's OBYN or any "female issues" such as PMS, menopause, etc.

Another example: talking about one's relationship with their mother. It's different for a mother-daughter relationship than it would be for a mother-son relationship. It's also different for a father-son relationship than it would be for a father-daughter relationship.

Another example: talking about males at work or elsewhere who are demeaning, inappropriately touchy or personal, etc.

When a man doesn't have the same frame of reference as another women would have, you just can't have the same kind of conversation with them

That's funny, because I've had all of those conversations with men both in SL and out. I'm shameless, though. Don't go by me. Nothing's off-limits in my world and I'm always very up front with that kind of thing. I've always said if you don't like talking about all kinds of random weird stuff, you'll hate me, dude.

Past dates/boyfriends - done it. Even current dates. When I was on a dating spree years ago, meeting and dating guys on various dating apps, I texted my best friend I don't know how many times like "Ok well I'll prolly die tonight nice knowing ya luv uuuuu" and he would text me back to help me get out of any potentially weird situations. Once, he even called a rather stalkery-type I found myself mixed up with to pretend to be my dad (LMAO what??? I had to be like 30) and threatened who knows what and the guy backed off immediately. He's a good dude. I can talk to him about all kinds of stuff. We still reminisce about the crazy situations I've gotten myself into.

Clothes/shopping - done it. Lots. I've known and dated some serious shopaholics and fashionistas both in SL and in RL. One I went out with in RL insisted on ordering/shipping clothing from France (where he was from), even, because our American fashions weren't up to his standards.😂 Same with beauty products, though admittedly, they were less interested in makeup and more in beard oil and face toners or whatever the hell. Guyliner and perhaps nail polish was about as far as I could push the conversation, except with men who were very goth - they indulged me on a lot more.

Hair styling - same. Again, fashionistas, goths, guys with very long hair, etc. Some men that reeeaaallllyyyy love their hair will yap on and on and on about their freaking shampoo and conditioner rituals until you pass out.

"Female issues" - done it. A few even insisted. I have a tendency to get whiny and I warn friends about it. No worries, you can whine to me all you want, doesn't bother me! Yayyyy *whine* 

Relationships with family, other friends, other men, all of it. I genuinely can't think of a conversation I wouldn't have with a male, really. Online, offline, in SL, outside of SL.

[Luna Bliss]

43 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

When a man doesn't have the same frame of reference as another women would have, you just can't have the same kind of conversation with them

Do you test this out with each individual man or just assume every man is a certain way?