Principles of Second Life.

[Randall Ahren]

1 hour ago, Persephone Emerald said:

#4. Radical Self-Reliance - "This game is boring" is the mating call of those who don't know how to rely on themselves for entertainment. The rest of us have also become so used to buying stuff, that we've forgotten it's even possible to build what we need. We believe we're not talented enough or we don't want to "waste" the time it takes to create something, forgetting the joy of creating and building that we once had as children. Building in SL can also be incredibly relaxing, even if one doesn't end up using what they make, but if one does use it, there is a feeling of pride that comes from knowing one made this thing.

The mating call, really? When you self-reliant types desire social interaction you build a mesh avatar, hook it up to a chatGPT and have deep, intimate conversations?

[Persephone Emerald]

14 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

The mating call, really? When you self-reliant types desire social interaction you build a mesh avatar, hook it up to a chatGPT and have deep, intimate conversations?

I don't think I ever look for avatar to avatar social interaction in SL. It's more a matter of forcing myself not to teleport away when someone tries to make conversation with me, and then just trying to talk with them like a normal human.

I can have long, intimate conversations in a chat window, but as soon as I think someone is trying to flirt "in person", I want to disappear to my skybox. I had this happen yesterday in SL.

I made a comment in an adult group, then a guy who seemed perfectly nice and had a good looking profile started chatting with me. I made myself chat back when I saw him "in person", and do you know how the Universe rewarded me? By having 3 more people IM me. One was someone I don't know at all who wanted me to give her a tarot reading because her SL SO hadn't been in SL for a while. One was a guy friend who's always horny. One was some woman on my friends list inviting everyone on it to her birthday party.

This was weird for me, but it's not really that unusual when one chats in groups or in local. When one seeks social interaction, joining groups and chatting in them is a good way to find other people.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What they wanted: Burning Man

What they got: "The Wicker Man"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man

I see your the wicker man and raise you a the wicker tree . 

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

Oh, I get it now!

The first principle of Second Life is there are no principles in Second Life!

There. I said it. I feel better now. Don't you?

[InnerCity Elf]

I loved Snow Crash back then, but for sure, the first time I read the title in relation to Philip Rosedale/SL, my thoughts pretty much were, "right, sure, Hiro, the protagonist, is a programmer and sword fighte, of course it would be a favourite of anyone involved in computers, coding, and the like". I guess I may have to reread it, with the thought if SL and parallels simmering in the back of my mind, as it never really made that link unprompted. 

Being European, too, my knowledge of Burning Man is very second-hand. To me, it mostly says, "hippie festival, probably an interesting experience, but not one I'm too keen on", but I guess I can see potential similarities, for example, a kind of at least surface or somewhat degree/idea of egality and self-organization, or as a kind of social experiment that people engage in willingly, people living out some dream, ... and naked people, of course  

Really should reread Snow Crash (sold it ages ago, but my library probably has it), and see how my present self likes and interprets it, as a first-hand experience of Burning Man won't happen.

[Love Zhaoying]

The title of this thread bugs me. Principles / Principals. "I don't dislike school, it's the Principal of the thing."

[AmeliaJ08]

21 hours ago, animats said:

I don't see the connection between Second Life and Burning Man. SL doesn't try to be a nicer world. Just a virtual one. SL has landlords, evictions, property taxes, neighbor problems, and jerks. Just like real life.

What makes Second Life work is this:

• It's a big world, and being a jerk has only about a 100 meter annoyance radius, the range of a shout. When someone manages to annoy over an area larger than that, it's so obvious that Governance can take action. That's rarely needed.
• The only broadcast medium is group messages. You have to join a group yourself. No one can add others to their group unwillingly. You can leave a group at any time and you're immediately off the list. So spam is a minor problem.
• On your own land, you have enough power to kick jerks out, keep them out, and keep them from seeing much of what you're doing. Or even just block new users.
• There's a social consensus that, given all those tools, you should deal with your own problems and not whine about little stuff.
• The general policy of LL management is rather hands-off.

This is much of why SL works as a society. It's subtle, and I've seldom if ever seen it described in a published article. It's really quite amazing, when you think about it, that a virtual world anyone can enter for free works so well.

Now, there are other ways to manage a virtual world, and they're worse. Meta's Horizon and Roblox have a huge number of low-paid "moderators" armed with ban hammers. Roblox is trying AI moderators, so Big Brother is always watching and listening. Users live in fear. LL has managed to avoid that mistake.

Comments?

 

Great points.

I think another reason SL works like this is because of its relative obscurity, it simply doesn't get the attention of enough people looking to do harm. It gets some no doubt but there's better targets for anyone looking to troll.

It does have a reputation though, no doubt (SL users can be very easily trolled when it does happen) and historically it seems there was a lot more grief against the platform and its users. As far as I know nothing much has changed in how this is tackled, it just doesn't get the trolls attention quite as much as it once did.

Edited August 14, 2023 by AmeliaJ08

[Anne Forbes]

3 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Great points.

I think another reason SL works like this is because of its relative obscurity, it simply doesn't get the attention of enough people looking to do harm. It gets some no doubt but there's better targets for anyone looking to troll.

It does have a reputation though, no doubt (SL users can be very easily trolled when it does happen) and historically it seems there was a lot more grief against the platform and its users. As far as I know nothing much has changed in how this is tackled, it just doesn't get the trolls attention quite as much as it once did.

New World Notes: Burning Man, Which Inspired Second Life, Gets Griefed Like Second Life (blogs.com)

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ann Forbes

[Extrude Ragu]

22 hours ago, Randall Ahren said:

When you self-reliant types desire social interaction you build a mesh avatar, hook it up to a chatGPT and have deep, intimate conversations?

That feeling when you have already done exactly this 😏

My conclusions on my science experiment:

Don't use chatgpt itself, too censored and dishonest. Use an open source model and host it yourself.

They are useful for bouncing thoughts and feelings around, since they basically have all of humanities thoughts and feelings bundled up inside them. But they can't replace human contact.

It is extremely entertaining making and designing  bashful npc's and then getting them to kiss guests.

[kali Wylder]

Burning man was one of the reasons why I came to SL in the first place.  I wasn't physically healthy enough to go to Burning Man in RL and when I heard there was a Burning Man in SL I wanted to experience it.  At the time I joined in June, there was a ghost town called burning man that I wandered around and was very disappointed.  Had to wait until October to experience SL's Burn2.  

But the spirit of giving away things you made, "the freebie" came from Burning Man.  And I really liked that concept.

[diamond Marchant]

I have never attended or wanted to attend Burning Man, but as I reside in the Reno/Tahoe area, I have lived in it's shadow for years. It is a polarizing topic and for locals, a lot of eye rolling. A multi decade evolution has occurred, well described in the Wikipedia.  Some  misconceptions are discussed here https://www.10best.com/interests/festivals-events/everything-you-heard-about-burning-man-is-wrong/

From what I see, similarities between Burning Man and Second Life are coincidental. Both are situations where humans are trying to have fun in large groups.

Rosedale attended in his early thirties and noticed that strangers were nice to each other. That stuck with him... he repeated this theme in answering the last question posed to him at SL20B (he wants SL to be a place where you can meet strangers). Thing is, there are countless other places he could have observed this hopeful side of human nature (as opposed to our xenophobic primate past).

I view the Burning Man "principles" as marketing. Some, such as  "Leave No Trace", are over-the-top hypocrisy.

 

[usedcars]

Who has principals?  

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 hours ago, usedcars said:

Who has principals?  

PrincipALS have principLES. 😉

[Fionalein]

Is refusing to have principles a principle?

[Bree Giffen]

I can think of two principles of Second Life. 

1. Living together in the same virtual space. LL made continents of contiguous virtual land and even their new land is always connected. There are island regions but those are large and expensive which create a need to have several people living and supporting it.

2. Hands off behavioral enforcement. The famous LL will not get into resident disputes. They give us tools to self-police but don't do it themselves except for things breaking their TOS, terms of service, which isn't about resident disputes. 

 

Maybe LL should make a burning man style gathering and make it where avatars can die of thirst and we have to share water which can only be produced by working together. I think it would show how residents are able to care for each other. 

[Gabriele Graves]

As I don't live in the US the Burning Man/Life/Burn2 event never really captured my interest much.  I have read Snow Crash but SL isn't really the metaverse described there.  SL was replete with references to things in the book which have mostly faded away.  I thought the book was a terrible read anyway.

I hadn't heard of either Burning Man or Snow Crash before joining SL.

SL was obviously Philip Rosedale's interpretation and vision but I'm not sure that has any relevance today.

SL as a whole doesn't seem to espouse any discernable principles that I can see at this point.  Sure, there are rules and policies but that's all those are.  It's a commercial service offering albeit a unique one which has it's own corporate values and drivers like they all do but fundamentally they are revenue driven.

Individuals and groups within SL might have their own principles but not for the whole of SL.

[Anne Forbes]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:50 AM, Silent Mistwalker said:

Second Life was never anything like Burning Man. Since SL is online and not RL, it violates all of the BM principles.

Please enlighten us with your sources, Silent.

"Gifting
Burning Man is devoted to acts of gift giving. The value of a gift is unconditional. Gifting does not contemplate a return or an exchange for something of equal value."

Freebies are very common in SL, as well as group gifts. Thanks to all of the creators that uphold this principle. It helps new residents tremendously and continues to be appreciated by the community. 💗

"Communal Effort
Our community values creative cooperation and collaboration. We strive to produce, promote and protect social networks, public spaces, works of art, and methods of communication that support such interaction."

We are immersed in a creative world where we often help each other learn. There are many free tutorials on the Internet and on YouTube. People have taken the time to share their knowledge. Thank you! 

"Participation
Our community is committed to a radically participatory ethic. We believe that transformative change, whether in the individual or in society, can occur only through the medium of deeply personal participation. We achieve being through doing. Everyone is invited to work. Everyone is invited to play. We make the world real through actions that open the heart.

There are almost endless events and groups that invite community participation. Hosts, artists and DJ's invest their time and money to entertain us. I have discovered new musicians and artists thanks to their generosity through the years. Thank you for helping us to feel included and sharing your music and talent with us!

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

My sources are 60 plus years of life experience and growing up in the 60s.

[janetheslot]

On 8/13/2023 at 6:08 PM, Persephone Emerald said:

I'm surprised so many people on this forum didn't seem to recognize that Burning Man (along with Snow Crash) were major inspirations for Philip Rosedale's vision for Second Life.

#1. Radical Inclusion - Yes. This is part of the unspoken principals of Second Life.

#2. Gifting - This is still part of SL, but many people seem to think it means getting free stuff, rather than how they give their time, experience, and sometimes stuff to others. With so much free stuff available, we probably forget the value of giving to those (usually newbies) who don't have much and who don't know where to get stuff to enhance their SL experience. 

#3. Decommodification - is still a pricipal of the platform when compared to social media sites, but hasn't been a principal for most user-creators of SL ever since the introduction of linden dollars.

#4. Radical Self-Reliance - "This game is boring" is the mating call of those who don't know how to rely on themselves for entertainment. The rest of us have also become so used to buying stuff, that we've forgotten it's even possible to build what we need. We believe we're not talented enough or we don't want to "waste" the time it takes to create something, forgetting the joy of creating and building that we once had as children. Building in SL can also be incredibly relaxing, even if one doesn't end up using what they make, but if one does use it, there is a feeling of pride that comes from knowing one made this thing.

#5. Radical Self Expression - Yes. This is still a big part of SL.

#6. Communal Effort - This is rare, but it's around. There's no way to have a roleplay community without communal effort, for instance.

#7. Civic Responsibility - Some people get this and some people don't. Some will have blaring lights or fullbright textures in SL, just as Elon Musk would have a flashing X logo atop a RL building, because they simply don't consider the feelings or needs of other people to be of any consequence to them. 

#8. Leaving No Trace - This doesn't really apply to SL, unless you want to consider all the sims, stores, and groups that have left. They sink beneath the waters of SL as if they had never existed, though they may still remain in our memories.

#9. Participation - This has gotten less and less common as users choose to stay isolated on their islands, in their homes and skyboxes. At least we have Group Chat when we don't feel like socializing avatar to avatar. I'm not complaining about this self-isolation though. It's a choice for many of us when we want to get away from the stresses of dealing with the real world and other people in RL.

#10. Immediacy - This is real when we take the time to talk with other people in SL. One has to spend more than a few minutes to feel it though, ironically. We can't know someone from looking at their avatar or having only a surface conversation. We have to allow ourselves to trust a stranger with a piece of ourself and allow them to trust us with a piece of themself. Then when we leave that conversation, we realize we've actually connected with someone across miles of RL space and with whom we might never have spoken with in RL.

I was starting to think I completely misunderstood OP's post. Thanks for the very well thought out response. Not sure why all the hard disagreement, clearly the referenced article quotes the SL creator as having been inspired by what he experienced while attending Burning Man. I've never been to the event nor do I know much about it. But I can certainly understand the point about comradery brought about by shared hardship. SL can be a difficult place to navigate and I have always found people here who are gracious and generous enough to help.

Maybe some are unwilling to accept how much overlap SL has with RL. Certainly the framework is different, but there can be a real sense of immersion. Real, meaningful relationships can be developed. There is also the benefit of being able to do things you would be unable to in real life. The further along I go in my SL journey the more it feels like what I read about in scifi literature that features virtual worlds. I was actually having a conversation with a friend recently about how surreal this place can be and she brought up the novel Snowcrash, so clearly some of us see the parallels. 

To the OP, sorry you're receiving so much critical commentary, I thought it was an interesting post. 

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, janetheslot said:

To the OP, sorry you're receiving so much critical commentary, I thought it was an interesting post. 

Not sure if their original post was before this year's Burning Man turned out to be a "dumpster fire", figuratively.

[Katherine Heartsong]

On 8/13/2023 at 5:26 PM, Qie Niangao said:

libertarian entrepreneur

Those two words together would be an oxymoron to the founders of what was originally called social libertarianism in the late 1850s, who recognized there were four types of man-made institutions designed to diminish and dis-empower one's ability to achieve personal liberty, not just the three that modern libertarians conveniently seem to focus on.

I personally find more in common with Stephenson's Snow Crash or Gibson's Neuromancer or heck, even Terry Pratchett's Discworld (yay!) here than Burning Man.

Interesting background history on the original vision though. I wonder why Philips vision of a virtual reality made it while others failed.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Katherine Heartsong

[Persephone Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Those two words together would be an oxymoron to the founders of what was originally called social libertarianism in the late 1850s, who recognized there were four types of man-made institutions designed to diminish and dis-empower one's ability to achieve personal liberty, not just the three that modern libertarians conveniently seem to focus on.

I personally find more in common with Stephenson's Snow Crash or Gibson's Neuromancer or heck, even Terry Pratchett's Discworld (yay!) here than Burning Man.

Interesting background history on the original vision though.

The Metaverse in Snow Crash was largely about free trade, personal vanity, and tough guy posturing, so it was alot like SL. People were also valued in the virtual world for their tech skills and skills they exhibited in that virtual world, rather than for their RL social status.

[Love Zhaoying]

44 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I wonder why Philips vision of a virtual reality made it while others failed.

Probably because it's mostly user-created content..?

38 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

free trade,

What we wanted: free trade. What we got: "rough trade".

Get off my street corner!

[Qie Niangao]

14 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Those two words together [libertarian entrepreneur] would be an oxymoron to the founders of what was originally called social libertarianism in the late 1850s, who recognized there were four types of man-made institutions designed to diminish and dis-empower one's ability to achieve personal liberty, not just the three that modern libertarians conveniently seem to focus on.

I probably meant "self-styled libertarian entrepreneur" although I don't really know that Rosedale would characterize himself thus. The founders of many a startup are very fond of "radical self-reliance" when it comes to the customer support, and fancy themselves ever so self-made, all the while riding the tide of inevitable technological progress—quantum material science lifts all boats—and the occasional taxpayer largesse. We have yet to see an existence proof of media that is both profitable and responsible for its user-generated content, while those founders cling to Section 230 as if it were the First Amendment, as exempt from product liability as gun manufacturers.

In such a free-wheeling free market, the mystery is how any of the virtual worlds failed to profit. My guess: social creation is one free expression for which people will pay a premium. But roll your own video game is as popular a hobby as 3D printing new electric vehicles in your garage.

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

49 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I wonder why Philips vision of a virtual reality made it while others failed.

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Probably because it's mostly user-created content..?

Having feet helps.

And um... a body below the waist.

But yeah - every other 'metaverse' has really been about a corporation branding itself, not about making a virtual world. MMOs also succeed because while heavily branded they provide purpose. You jump into the virtual world of an MMO and right away there are squirrels to fight it out with - stuff to do.

You gotta have one or the other. Feet or squirrels... or something like that.