Does Linden Labs Not Care About Secondlife?

[Randy Pole]

On 8/5/2023 at 5:59 AM, xxSweetMuskxx said:

1. The main website. It's straight out of 1999. Listing things on marketplace is so tedious because of the god awful UI. This is the easiest to fix. Won't take even 3 months and more than a couple 1000 dollars. Does Linden Labs not make any money? I'll be surprised.

By all means apply for job at LL if you think you can do better and especially for that price - I am sure they would love to hear from you.

On 8/5/2023 at 5:59 AM, xxSweetMuskxx said:

2. Mobile app? Imvu, despite it's limitations has gained a lot of popularity. Why doesn't Secondlife have a mobile app? They even blacklisted the one that was half decent. Why do that? That would've increased the range of Secondlife so much.

Mobile app is in the works - do try and keep up. It's been all over that web site you hate so much. I'm not sure that a mobile app is the way to go though.

On 8/5/2023 at 5:59 AM, xxSweetMuskxx said:

3. Extremely complex avi system, at least for a beginner. There is a very distinct gap between the starter Avis and other bodies like legacy, inithium etc etc. This is probably the hardest to fix, but it's so daunting for a newcomer. If there were slightly better starter Avis, more people will stay.

Great idea! Let's stop designers creating anything new in mesh and everyone has to use the same body. This is NOT the way to go. Yes it is complicated for new residents but they do not need to jump right in and pay loads of L$ until they want to. The new avatars are getting there and will get better with designer support and skins.

On 8/5/2023 at 5:59 AM, xxSweetMuskxx said:

4. Other little things e.g. updating inventory in the beta grid. There's a beta grid where you get free lindens to test things you create before you upload them to the main world. It's supposed to have all your main grid inventory. The only way to update the inventory in that is to contact support and raise a ticket. It's been that way for at least 5-6 years.

It's a beta test grid first and foremost - the fact that some use it as a free way to upload stuff is not the purpose of the test grid.

You seem to dislike just about everything and yet maybe you need to take a step back. Maybe consider attending one of the many sessions hosted by the Lindens about the various parts of the highly complex infrastructure that they have created and engage in come constructive dialog with them.

[Sid Nagy]

2 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Oh they are? Did someone tell this to the people in charge?

Of course it doesn't mean the company has to jump on every individual suggestion or peeve.
There is always that nasty thingy like costs in relation with effectiveness and growth.
But it can really help to make decisions about future development and improvements.
 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Edited because it is allowed. :)

[Phil Deakins]

8 minutes ago, Randy Pole said:

It's a beta test grid first and foremost - the fact that some use it as a free way to upload stuff is not the purpose of the test grid.

Actually, it is. It's a very significant part of its purpose. That's why it has free uploads - to test things before commiting them to SL, for which uploads have to be paid for. That's not all that the beta grid is for, but it's a significant part of it.

[Katherine Heartsong]

4 hours ago, Istelathis said:

I'm really happy I never listened to the reviewers when I finally purchased it on sale.  What a fantastic game it is, I have over the years, learned not to let reviews dictate how good a game or especially a movie is going to be. I think people just get really hyped up for something, and when it doesn't match their expectations they feel the entire product is a failure.

With that said, I did get the game later on, I'm not sure how bad it was previous to when I bought it.  When I did purchase it, people were complaining that it was horrible, not to purchase it and so on.  Later on, I guess they made changes to fix bugs, so I might have just been lucky.

Same, I enjoyed it lots and loved the look but just recently removed the 60+ GB from my PC gaming rig because I had wanted a totally open world from the get go, not have to work through a bunch of missions I find hard (not a FPS kinda person) before anything outside the small city core got unlocked to travel around in. I was hoping for more sandbox and less scripted.

Sorry, off topic. Back on now ...

The main reason why I tend to post about user retention, usability and user experience, user growth, delighting the user, the UI, etc is that's my business and career for 30 years. And LL is far behind the curve on many things that we now know as being necessary and expected by user's when they "play" games.

I guarantee you that if you did qualitative surveys of those who do not stick with SL after their initial encounter one of the two main reasons would be "I couldn't figure out what to do" or "I couldn't make my avatar look like the one's on the screens". You know the ones .. these promises here ...

And that is what a new user expects SL to look like for them, in many cases, hence the opportunity to disappoint.

I'll also add, controversially I know, that that second pic especially, is what the NUX avatars should look like. Apologies to Signature and Maitreya and Legacy et al, but that is what LL should provide if they want to delight new users. Unpopular opinion, never gonna happen, OMG the body makers would flee, but that's my take on "base" avatars. Delight users, don't frustrate them.

As a point of note, I do not consider SL a game per se, but from a lot of people's view point from outside it looks like one. It really is one with the one exception that it lacks set goals as motivators to continue to play, and when you compare it to most other sandbox type of games (i.e., The Sims) it can seem very dated and difficult to use, despite being able to do some thing that are simply amazing like creating literally anything. So the "do anything" sword has two sides.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Katherine Heartsong

[Ayashe Ninetails]

33 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

As a point of note, I do not consider SL a game per se, but from a lot of people's view point from outside it looks like one. It really is one with the one exception that it lacks set goals as motivators to continue to play, and when you compare it to most other sandbox type of games (i.e., The Sims) it can seem very dated and difficult to use, despite being able to do some thing that are simply amazing like creating literally anything. So the "do anything" sword has two sides.

Agree with everything. I'll also point out that games that fall into the "do anything" sandbox category also give players all of the tools to do so. I can't think of any popular sandboxes that require players to learn actual 3D modeling to create content outside of Roblox perhaps - and even that's got a simplified program to work with, so it's possible that some are coming in with the idea of building/crafting anything they want in-world and eventually learn that's not the case.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

52 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

As a point of note, I do not consider SL a game per se, but from a lot of people's view point from outside it looks like one. It really is one with the one exception that it lacks set goals as motivators to continue to play, and when you compare it to most other sandbox type of games (i.e., The Sims) it can seem very dated and difficult to use, despite being able to do some thing that are simply amazing like creating literally anything. So the "do anything" sword has two sides.

Agree with everything. I'll also point out that games that fall into the "do anything" sandbox category also give players all of the tools to do so. I can't think of any popular sandboxes that require players to learn actual 3D modeling to create content outside of Roblox perhaps - and even that's got a simplified program to work with, so it's possible that some are coming in with the idea of building/crafting anything they want in-world and eventually learn that's not the case.

At least, most of "us" have gotten beyond the point of "filing a butthurt report" at the mere mention by others that "Second Life is a game".  

Irony: I called once many years ago for some issue and was asked questions by the representative using the word "game"!  I assume they used that term because they were told to.

[Fionalein]

Wether SL is a game or not is a matter of the definition of the word game. Repeating the "SL is not a game!" mantra will only drive away the casual users LL tries to win when entering the mobile market. It was a marketing ploy of early SecondLife. Aggressively insisting on it will only make us appear as a bunch of delusional weirdos.

Imagine running into someone on a Minecraft server telling you Minecraft was not a game. Would you take that person serious?

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Aggressively insisting on it will only make us appear as a bunch of delusional weirdos.

..or confirm it! IJS!!!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I personally call SL a game (or a platform), but perhaps the homepage should pick a lane on that front. You've got everything from explore and create to shop the marketplace to virtual remote meetings - I wouldn't be surprised if newbies get a bit confused by that. Perhaps more confused if they've also seen the other promo videos and photos across social media.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

18 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I personally call SL a game (or a platform), but perhaps the homepage should pick a lane on that front. You've got everything from explore and create to shop the marketplace to virtual remote meetings - I wouldn't be surprised if newbies get a bit confused by that. Perhaps more confused if they've also seen the other promo videos and photos across social media.

Claiming SL is for Business to Business Teleconferenced power meetings does SL a dis-service, it's pathetic at that compared to stuff like Teams(tm)

Claiming SL is a place where you too can become rich like her Imperial Highness, Anshe the 1st, Empress of the Estates, just by logging in and investing a whole $20 does SL a dis-service.

Telling people SL is a game does SL a dis-service, most people don't think of "ssndboxes" when they hear "game", they think assigning attribute points, skill points, picking class perks, having missions, earning xp, gaining levels.

SL has none of that, people who come here expecting a "game" will almost invariably be severely disappointed, and just walk away in minutes.

 

Any SecondLifer who tells outsides SL is a "game" to convince them to come here and try it, is a damn traitor and fully deserving of the lynch-mob response they get.

[Ted McGregor]

Games are usually built by game engines. IDTech and Unreal to name a few.

Even though based on OpenGL, Second Life is not build on such an engine and therefore will never work like a game based on a game egine.

The comparison is indeed faulty.

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Any SecondLifer who tells outsides SL is a "game" to convince them to come here and try it, is a damn traitor and fully deserving of the lynch-mob response they get.

Makes me wonder, why doesn't the WelcomeHub direct new users to try the official game "Linden Realms" (or whatever it's called)?

[Ayashe Ninetails]

22 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Telling people SL is a game does SL a dis-service, most people don't think of "ssndboxes" when they hear "game", they think assigning attribute points, skill points, picking class perks, having missions, earning xp, gaining levels.

SL has none of that, people who come here expecting a "game" will almost invariably be severely disappointed, and just walk away in minutes.

It's already being referred to as a game in various gaming communities and has been for a long time. Search "Second Life" in any giant gaming Discord channel or subreddit and you'll get people discussing how they've tried "that game once" or asking "any games like Second Life?" or warning "wow stay away from SL it's a weird game."

I have not personally seen anyone say "Oh wow, yeah I tried that virtual platform for remote meetings and exploration and found it to be pretty odd..." That would be amusing, though.

Random quotes from the Palia Discord server searching only "Second Life":

"Wow classic had 10 times more social aspects put into the mix than the beta, but both are also dif genre. FF 14 too, and games like second life, habbo, vr chat and all that social games mambo for ex"

"So cute! What game is this?
second life"

"I wonder how many of the community here went through games like second life
which for the record is a terrible game"

"Thanks!
Yes I had shown the model, but now it is complete with rigg and texture to import into games like VRchat or Second Life XD"

[Gabriele Graves]

Is it possible that gamers see all online environments as games because that's the vast majority of their experience?  They describe it in terms of what they are used to.

A bit like a primitive tribe seeing an aeroplane for the first time might describe it as a metal bird?

A virtual environment that isn't also a game isn't common enough to distinguish itself for them perhaps?

This is all supposition and theorising of course.

[AmeliaJ08]

10 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Is it possible that gamers see all online environments as games because that's the vast majority of their experience?  They describe it in terms of what they are used to.

A bit like a primitive tribe seeing an aeroplane for the first time might describe it as a metal bird?

A virtual environment that isn't also a game isn't common enough to distinguish itself for them perhaps?

This is all supposition and theorising of course.

I think so too.

I don't see SL as a game since it has none of the features of a game. I understand sandbox games though, one of my favorites is Cities Skylines and I don't play it as a game, I disable all the game stuff - I just want to build giant cities, like it's a virtual Lego kit or something. It is still a game though, I can see why people just opt for the easy descriptor and I don't consider it a virtual world like SL.

I suppose since I came from earlier virtual worlds I never saw SL as a game though, they were always something quite unique and we didn't used to think of them as games.

SL stands alone, whatever it may be. I just say virtual world since I've always said it, even going back to worlds.com/activeworlds etc.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by AmeliaJ08

[Ayashe Ninetails]

8 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Is it possible that gamers see all online environments as games because that's the vast majority of their experience?  They describe it in terms of what they are used to.

A bit like a primitive tribe seeing an aeroplane for the first time might describe it as a metal bird?

A virtual environment that isn't also a game isn't common enough to distinguish itself for them perhaps?

This is all supposition and theorising of course.

Very likely. I've also seen it described as an MMO, without the RPG. To a lot of gamers, any online platform with avatars/characters is a game, no matter how much tech media tries to force us to use the word metaverse. 😏 Not happening.

This is pretty much why I think the homepage should be a bit more targeted. If they're going after gamers (which I wouldn't really assume, to be honest - I don't personally think they are given what I've seen), they'll need entirely different lingo and marketing. If they're going after other communities, then shift focus to what they're used to seeing in their marketing. Right now, it's a little bit of this and that.

[Silent Mistwalker]

42 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

social games

No wonder humans are so messed up.

[MissSweetViolet]

23 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Trolls don't normally return to the scene of the thread they created crime. Just in case people didn't notice that the OP did return to the thread and apologized.

What I'd like to know is why so many immediately jump on a new person for being a troll when there really is no evidence, just a rant. Too many of you jump all over others for breaking the rules when you break the rules yourselves by jumping on them. 

All the "rules for me but not for thee" is really showing its ugly head. No wonder SL and the forums don't retain new people. Give it a rest.

The OP stated they have been here a long time, so they aren't new.

On 8/5/2023 at 12:59 AM, xxSweetMuskxx said:

I've been wondering this lately. I've played for a long time. Secondlife has a decent userbase. I've definitely seen though that the number and quality of people have declined for sure.

------------------------

Unrelated to any of the above,  and directed at everyone as a whole. Everyone was taking about SL being called a game or not. I have to say as a gamer, I could totally see how someone would be let down if they viewed it that way, fortunately, I didn't, and wouldn't want to, to me it's more of a 3d social/virtual platform. The thing your probably going to do on first starting it is talk to someone (unless you know to look around for other stuff, which a new user may or may not), without all of the player made content, which makes Second Life so wonderful, it would essentially, be a 3d social media site, so I would never really view it as a game. That being said, I their are many gamers who probably would, but they do themselves a disservice to think that way.

[Gabriele Graves]

On 8/5/2023 at 4:59 AM, xxSweetMuskxx said:

I've definitely seen though that the number and quality of people have declined for sure.

What specifically do you mean when you say "quality of people"?

Edited August 9, 2023 by Gabriele Graves
Clarified what I am referring to.

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

What specifically do you mean when you say "quality of people"?

It took me a few minutes to realize you may have been referring to the OP's quote. I saw that part of the OP come up a few times in the thread. It will be interesting if they come back to clarify on that point. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

35 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

The OP stated they have been here a long time, so they aren't new.

 I didn't say they were new. Didn't imply it either. 

New point required new paragraph. I followed the rules of writing.

 

[Ted McGregor]

It is as difficult to explain the difference between SL and "any other game", as is explaining the difference between teleporting to a region ( and rezzing afterwards ) against loading the next ( or previous ) completely rendered level in a 3D game.

They are simply not the same thing.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Ted McGregor

[MissSweetViolet]

16 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 I didn't say they were new. Didn't imply it either. 

New point required new paragraph. I followed the rules of writing.

 

My apologies then, I nearly failed English, so I just assumed it was then same topic. [note that I'm entirely serious and not being sarcastic here, since tone is hard to tell in text form]

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

My apologies then, I nearly failed English, so I just assumed it was then same topic. [note that I'm entirely serious and not being sarcastic here, since tone is hard to tell in text form]

I inferred the same thing from the post you quoted.  For clarification, they should have said..."not referring to the OP but.." Since the OP is a newer forum poster, I thought the same as you.

[Arielle Popstar]

Whether it is a game or a social platform depends on how the individual resident chooses to use it. Therein lies the beauty of Secondlife or Opensim. Some use it as a dress up game, some use it like a monopoly game, accumulating properties and renters, some use it for the weapons and shootups that can be found around the grids. Some use it for racing of vehicles, some use it for adult activities, notching their bedposts for every quickie sex conquest they make. And some actually use it to socialize with others although in that regard it is a somewhat dying platform.

Game or social, it is up to the individual.