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idea.. a 3.x viewer....


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I think LL should start making a 3.x viewer... A viewer that looks and works like a 1.x viewer and with the new things on the grid (mesh).

 

I think 2.x is an dead end.. Its there for over a year (almost 2 years) and still not many people are using it because they dont like it... most people love 1.x..

 

wondering what you think :)

 

Melvin

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3 weeks ago I made my self use viewer 2 all weekend,like any one I said the same things.

I love it now and I will not use any other viewer,it just took me a few weeks to get it down.when I look around I see more viewer 2 and firestorm then I see people using viewer 1.

Here are the fact,they are not going to do as you ask,they invested way to much money to design viewer 2 to return to viewer 1.Viewer2 is really good once you get use to it! I  script and design,I deals with a ton of support IMs,builds and a lot of thing at once.When I first used viewer 2 it was imposible..then I told my self ..it is not!! and I made my self use it until I like it :D

 

For me it is way more stable,I can not crash ,freeze ,group chat issues and all the things that drove me away from viewer 1.

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Yes, we absolutely need a 3.x, but it's a huge mistake to start from this assumption:


...  most people love 1.x..

Most people have never seen 1.x.  Nor 2.x.  Nor even so much as a Second Life-related press release.

The next viewer needs to start completely from scratch, except for the server messaging.  There's simply nothing worth saving in either of the preceding viewer generations, and huge built-in handicaps.  It's simply embarrassing that viewer developers have to push back on true customization, viewer-side scripting, exchangable viewer-side assets such as plugins... all because neither pre-existing architecture can support even the tiniest bit of expandability.

Unfortunately, starting on a 3.x architecture is premature unless LL is in a position to state how they're planning to get to mobile devices.  It's too soon to be doing any serious re-architecting if they're still looking at Server-Side Rendering vs HTML5 (really a business decision about how much compute power their particular target market will be carrying around, once the separate GPU is a thing of the past).

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Yes. They should. But, they won't.  Any company stubborn enough to ignore the customer thumbs down when v2 was introduced is not exactly customer-orientated.  If any other company had released a product like that RL and got the same feedback, the team responsible would have be shown the door, and a better solution found quickly.

What LL should have done, was contact the developers of the other TPV viewers, sub-contracted them to merge the finer parts of the TPV's, and produced the definitive SL viewer which would have been head and shoulders the best available to the customer.  

Why didn't they do this far more effective and cost-saving action?  Perhaps, an unwarranted confidence in their V2 team, the embarrassment of getting part time volunteers to do their job better? Who knows? It would have been an elegant solution,but.....

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it's a far cry from the version when it was introduced..

the side bar moved the whole screen over and thats what set off the hate for the side bar..

seperated camera controls..like looking around and loooking right to left were something people did at seperate times..

thier first release was crap..

now with third parties coming a long the way they are..more are switching to V2's.

Firestorm is getting better and better with each version.. their first pre alpha performed better than anything out there..

I haven't crashed one time since using it..

i always felt that when firestorm gets released on beta..the tides would change about V2's

so far people are loving it that were v1 users..

i really feel thats it's going to be what brings a lot of people over from v1's..

it just has a feel that a lot would like..

plus there is PIE for everyone that wants it  \o/ :P

 

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MouseBoxV2sticker.jpg

v3 not going to happen anytime soon. LL just ordered another 90 truckloads of duct tape to keep developing v2.

But when LL start to develop v3. i hope they hire real interface designer. Not some graphics designer who enjoy pushing buttons and watching things slide in and fade out. Philip Linden said that iDiot phone is fancy and bling bling, but not very good if you want to actually get work done.

People keep telling me that nowdays i can do most things in v2 that i were able to do in v1. Just need to find all the debug settings and edit some files here and there. But most is not all, so i stay away for some longer. Life is short, i rather get something done in SL than enjoy clicking all over the screen bazillion times to be able to do the things i did with 1 or 2 clicks in v1.

 

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Melvin Starbrook wrote:

I think LL should start making a 3.x viewer... A viewer that looks and works like a 1.x viewer and with the new things on the grid (mesh).

I think 2.x is an dead end.. Its there for over a year (almost 2 years) and still not many people are using it because they dont like it... most people love 1.x..

wondering what you think
:)

Melvin

I think you need to provide solid statistical evidence for you assertation that "most peole love 1.x". (Hint: You won't be able to! :smileywink:)

As I said elsewhere in another thread, trying to cater for everyone's preferences and desires in SL is impossible. Some people prefer 1.x. Some people prefer 2.x. Some people prefer offical viewer. Some people prefer a TPV. There is no general consensus in SL and probably never will be because its userbase is so diverse.

Going backwards in not the answer though. Providing as much choice as possible without it becoming too confusing is the answer (which is quite a balancing act and not easy to achieve!)

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Honestly, I find most of the complaints about Viewer 2 to be based solely in the complainer's unwillingness to get used to a new layout, even when that layout is superior to the old.

There are some valid complaints about Viewer 2 (the broken height display in the appearance editor, the broken functionality in some of the build tools, the delay between clicking an object and "edit" becoming available for clicking, etcetera) but in many ways it's actually superior to V1 now. It's definitely not the same viewer that 2.0 was. There's actuallye a tonne of UI customization options now, far more than 1.x had.

 

 

If anything, my major complaint with Viewer 2 is that it's too much like Viewer 1. Seriously, it's not a huge change, UI-wise. Both viewers are based on the thinking found in file editing software UI. SL is not a file editing programme so there's no reason for this.

LL needs to take a look at what the videogame industry has been doing with UI design for virtual worlds for the past 15 years now.

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Personally, I like viewer 2. It has flaws I would like to se corrected, but overall I like it better than I did viewer 1.

But.... I agree with those who said to start from scratch. Why on earth would you base a new viewer on an old interface?What's the point of that? Does it not make more sence to forget what has been, and what is, and start with what should be (keeping past mistakes in mind)?

- Luc -

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Melvin Starbrook wrote:

I think LL should start making a 3.x viewer... A viewer that looks and works like a 1.x viewer and with the new things on the grid (mesh).

 

I think 2.x is an dead end.. Its there for over a year (almost 2 years) and still not many people are using it because they dont like it... most people love 1.x..

 

wondering what you think
:)

 

Melvin

Wondering what I think? I think that LL will never dare lose face over the V2. They created a poll, in which 95% of people were aginst it but they ignored the people. Knowing that population turns over continually, and that the V2 is the only one offered to new users, they'll press on with it regardless, knowing that there will come a time when it's used by the majority of people. Then they'll claim it as a popular success because most people use it.

The bottom line is that LL isn't the slightest interested in what their customers think or want.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Melvin Starbrook wrote:

I think LL should start making a 3.x viewer... A viewer that looks and works like a 1.x viewer and with the new things on the grid (mesh).

 

I think 2.x is an dead end.. Its there for over a year (almost 2 years) and still not many people are using it because they dont like it... most people love 1.x..

 

wondering what you think
:)

 

Melvin

Wondering what I think? I think that LL will never dare lose face over the V2. They created a poll, in which 95% of people were aginst it but they ignored the people. Knowing that population turns over continually, and that the V2 is the only one offered to new users, they'll press on with it regardless, knowing that there will come a time when it's used by the majority of people. Then they'll claim it as a popular success because most people use it.

The bottom line is that LL isn't the slightest interested in what their customers think or want.

V2 will become the defacto Viewer by force only.

it is slow, clunky and almost feature free by phoenix standards.

apart from this proposed Mesh, i cant see any reason for using V2 and i dont think Mesh will be the success many naive people think it will be.

as far as im concerned V2 is a slow ugly resource hog.

tried them all including kirstens and i hate them all.

 

 

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I think there's 2 arguments going on here, one is viewer 1 vs viewer 2 lay out and the other is official viewer features vs 3rd party features.   Viewer 2 has come a long way from it's release, now that Im use to it there's no way I'd want to go back to the viewer 1 layout, and I'm looking forward to trying viewer 3 what ever it is.  for reatures I like to use the offical viewers to keep up on new features being added, and I like Firestorm when I want the extra features I need like animation preview and RLV. 

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

actually V1s hog more resorces than V2's if you are speaking about the servers and sims..

if you are talking about computers..thats gonna change between users

Phoenix runs faster than V2 on my machine.

thats a fact. ive tried them all as i said before, and i have been in SL long enough to know what suits me.

perhaps you dont know much about resources and frame rates.

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

actually V1s hog more resorces than V2's if you are speaking about the servers and sims..

if you are talking about computers..thats gonna change between users

Phoenix runs faster than V2 on my machine.

thats a fact. ive tried them all as i said before, and i have been in SL long enough to know what suits me.

perhaps you dont know much about resources and frame rates.

perhaps you didn't understand what i said..server side V2's are less of a hog..client side it becomes user to user..

your last line speaks volumes..it says..dogboats system is how we tell how frames work..that frames and resources are only affcted by usage and not settings..

 

what suits you does not define user to user..

it just shows your lack of knowing how this whole thing works..

i use both. i don't just try them.i think i know my system better than you do..mine gets better frames on a v2 than a memory leaking patched up v1 trying to run on v2 servers..

my v2 will run the same and use the same 5 hours from now..if i fire up a v1 then it is count down time to a crash depending on the viewer as the leaks suck down my resources..i find myself going into processes and clicking off slplugin.exe after slplugin.exe over and over because of my v1 trying to keep up..

that may not be the same for you..it's all in the settings and systems..not on some scale we all go by..

 

 

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:


Dogboat Taurog wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

actually V1s hog more resorces than V2's if you are speaking about the servers and sims..

if you are talking about computers..thats gonna change between users

Phoenix runs faster than V2 on my machine.

thats a fact. ive tried them all as i said before, and i have been in SL long enough to know what suits me.

perhaps you dont know much about resources and frame rates.

perhaps you didn't understand what i said..server side V2's are less of a hog..client side it becomes user to user..

your last line speaks volumes..it says..dogboats system is how we tell how frames work..that frames and resources are only affcted by usage and not settings..

 

what suits you does not define user to user..

it just shows your lack of knowing how this whole thing works..

i use both. i don't just try them.i think i know my system better than you do..mine gets better frames on a v2 than a memory leaking patched up v1 trying to run on v2 servers..

my v2 will run the same and use the same 5 hours from now..if i fire up a v1 then it is count down time to a crash depending on the viewer as the leaks suck down my resources..i find myself going into processes and clicking off slplugin.exe after slplugin.exe over and over because of my v1 trying to keep up..

that may not be the same for you..it's all in the settings and systems..not on some scale we all go by..

 

 

 

i dont think you understand what i said so i will explain in simpler terms;

V1 runs better than V2 on my PC.

ps im sure you know your system better than i do.

same here.

 

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i understood that part perfectly and never said otherwise hehehe..

you basically threw something out of left field in there..i caught it and threw it back..lol

i never attempted to say how it ran on someone elses system..just that it would be different for everyone.. some have trouble tping while some don't hehehe..some can go to a club with 40 people in it and some wouldn't even think about it hehehehe

 what may be a bogger for someone else  may not be for others..

 

but when it came to impact on the grid..that v1's had a bigger impact on resources than a v2..

 

if you go back and look at what i had said from the start you will see that i wasn't disagreeing with you ..just seperating the server and client cliuttering is all..

"Dogboat Taurog Wrote:

V2 will become the defacto Viewer by force only.

it is slow, clunky and almost feature free by phoenix standards.

apart from this proposed Mesh, i cant see any reason for using V2 and i dont think Mesh will be the success many naive people think it will be.

as far as im concerned V2 is a slow ugly resource hog.

tried them all including kirstens and i hate them all."

 



"Ceka Cianci wrote:

 actually V1s hog more resorces than V2's if you are speaking about the servers and sims..

if you are talking about computers..thats gonna change between users"



i never called you out on anything at all..not even  the fact that you put up phoenix  against V2's and not against firestorm it's v2 version which has more features than phoenix.. or that more users are starting to switch over on their own without force..

Firestorm will have a big impact in the change of tides on it's own..if people will take the time to learn it like they did their v1's instead of just jumping in for a short time and saying they used it when they only tried it for a taste..

there are always going to be people that cannot run the current viewers..just like people had to run on lessor viewers before v2's ever came out..

i loved phoenix..also imprudence and always kept my snowglobe around and still do..then when firestorm pre-alpha came out i was sold..

i think we will see a lot of that in the near future..because it doesn't look and feel like a v2..i end up forgetting about which viewer i am in..i've caught myself checking to make sure i was in phoenix or firestorm  quite a few times hehehehe

there is a heck of a lot of support behind it thats for sure and it is getting better with more features with each version..

i think you are going to see v1's fall off a more and more because of dev attentions moving more to the v2's and thier features..

people are going to move where the features are..

emerald showed that..then it went away,,then when phoenix came out they showed it again and people came in droves like someone was giving away free sandwitches hehehehe..

now firestorm shows up with more features..when v1's can't be patched up to what everyone wants or people find out that maybe firestorm runs better with those features on their system (dependign on the systems and users hehehehe) than their v1's..you will see them switch over..

change is gonna happen and it's not gonna be by force..

it's gonna be because of want..because we all love more feature and we all love pie \o/ hehehe

 

a lot may disagree with that part..but history pretty much speaks for itself when it comes to wants in a viewer.. *winks*

mesh will probably be like sculpts at first..you see some here andf there..now look..sculpt hands and feet and clothes and hair ect..

mesh  won't be on v1's..they may not have a huge impact ..but they will be a combining part of the switch over to v2's..

 

 

 




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