Why is the Land Market Doing So Poorly?

[Prokofy Neva]

So a group of you will say, "Oh, but it's not, why I just sold..." 

That always happens. It happens either because it's true; as Auden explained -- you're suffering, but someone else is opening a window or dully walking along.

Or people object because they are part of the cartel that wants to keep prices up by saying everything is fine -- and in a way, who could blame them?

To use the word "market" about this toy world is of course terribly misleading, because there are so many artificial constraints. The history of the auction disappears after a week or so and there is no deeds office; you can't see who is bidding, how much, for what, to understand if they are deliberately bidding to jack up the price (of course they are, if you just follow some auctions and TP inworld to see who wins them).

There's a lot of abandoning; there's a lot of crazy pricing ("let me see if anyone will click and buy this G-rated steep, stony waterfront in a nothing sim for $92/m"), etc.

Even so, with all the disqualifiers, it seems to me worse than usual, and I like to understand these mysteries in SL. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so, however, because I see these signs:

o land for sale in Zindra for $5/m -- I haven't seen that in ages

o land abandoned in Zindra

o top bottom-feeding land dealers liquidating at 0.5/meter -- no, they didn't "always" do that. I've been in SL for nearly 19 years now.

o prime waterfront going for $2/m, less

o G land going for 0.9/m

o land "priced to move" never moving -- I think of last year when I easily sold some nice land or even, frankly, last *month* when if I "priced to move* it would.

o quick abandonments after auction wins -- they are land dealers who bid to drive up the price, then abandoned, or, if new to this, realized recurring tier was going to bite hard.

I'm not in the land-selling business. So I don't really know. I only know what I see on the 55 sims where I do have land for *rent* which I visit regularly, which is more than most people look at, but it isn't "hundreds" which of course is what the Lindens see -- if they look, and I'm not sure they do.

Why is this happening? Because it is happening, and your story of how you sold some prime waterfront at top dollar isn't quite convincing me. But try.

My theories:

Answer:

Negative Reasons

o COVID forbearance is over in the States (and likely elsewhere) -- Uncle Joe ended in May 11, and here we all are -- not only are subsidies dried up, prices are shooting up as telecoms, etc. forced to provide subsidies now try to make up their losses, and milk disappears from the stores due to high prices and supply chain issues, etc. etc. COVID killed some people; made others permanently sick; this does affect virtuality. Even in my little world, I still have tenants who died or got sick and struggle.

o Some big landlords are defaulting or being expelled for land cutting, at least until they line up their next alts? There's always that churn but am I wrong it has increased lately?

o Switch from rental from ownership -- I see this anecdotally. Some people ask to rent rather than buy a certain parcel, and of course the pernicious practice of putting land to sale to make it show up on the map, for a ridiculous price so that it won't be bought, but rented, adds to this. While I generally abhor this practice, as I do putting your company's name or logo in the sky to make it show up on the map, with search still so broken, it's understandable and I resort to it as well.

o Overcrowded forums ad space and lack of effective advertising inworld; you see a lot of ugly, spinning "for sale" signs precisely because there is lack of *effective* advertising capacity in SL 

o Lack of diverse land dealers -- once there was a real range from cheap flippers to boutique landscapers because sales were brisk enough to provide incentive. Now they don't, and there are less and less people, with worse and worse practices like ad farms, micro-cutting, donuting, etc.

Positive Reasons

o Bellisseria -- Bellihub, new Victorian open plan, etc.  attracted even more residents away from the Mainland. And that, after all, is the Lindens' master plan, and from their perspective, it makes sense. Therefore objectively speaking, I have to put it in the "positive" column even if not positive for me.

o Homestead purchasing capacity in Premium Plus -- this has drawn away a likely small, but significant cohort of people away from the Mainland; why buy an 8192 when you can buy a homestead for a bit more and have it stay nice?

o Island "purchases" and rentals -- still always a draw away from Mainland, and my impression is that those prices have fallen as the price of sims has fallen

o Spring! People go outdoors. Yes, I get it. Good! Always nice to see people go from being "mouse potatoes" to at least getting a little sun on their pale work-from-home faces. Yes, this happens every year at this time. Yes, it gets even WAY worse in the "dog days of summer" when people are on vacation and dump SL land or don't buy it. But again, I feel it is worse now.

 

 

 

 

[diamond Marchant]

Yes there are signs. There is no evidence I am of aware of that suggests that Second Life is growing in any way. I suppose each of us has anecdotal evidence that is not favorable... in my case it is Governance, or lack thereof. I have filed ARs that are slam dunk literal violations of the Bellisseria covenant, but they are not acted upon. My takeaway is that Linden Lab is understaffed and is currently prioritizing... one would assume they are focusing their efforts on things that increase revenue (and reduce expenses, like Governance).

Because Linden Lab is private, they are a black box. I  imagine that those who work there are NOT happy to be repeatedly saying "soon" when asked about when is "whatever" going to happen. It feels very much like money troubles.

About land, without understanding precisely "why", we can say that the supply/demand balance has tipped toward weaker demand. More Bellisseria homes have been released... one can now easily get a houseboat it seems... and the BelliHub now exists to help bring noobs up to speed.

My worry is that it is too little, too late. Whatever Second Life is, it does not seem to have a wide appeal. Over 20 years, SL has attracted around 67 million registered users yet there are in the ballpark of 45 thousand concurrent users. Restated, that is a ratio of over 1000 to 1.

Back to the land situation... this is symptom of a much more fundamental problem. The metaverse is no longer the "it thing", and Second Life is likely to remain a niche virtual world until it goes off the air and the investors recover some of their investment by selling off the assets... which includes every single thing every creator has ever uploaded (as described on section 2.3, paragraph 5 of the Terms of Service)

Prediction: They will not sell your stuff as is, rather, it will be sold as fodder to a Generative AI database, so that anyone can construct a 3D model for "give me a cross between an F/A 18C Hornet and a Wright flyer".

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by diamond Marchant

[Chic Aeon]

None of this is new news. SL's economy depends in part on the world economy and if you haven't been paying attention it is in the toilet. Pretty sure I can say that LOL.  I have talked to some SL friends in Europe and same there as the US and the US has some big problems coming up in June.

 

So far as just the LAND part of the equation, SL land does NOT seem to be mirroring its corporeal counterpart -- at least in my part of the globe.   A tiny little house  (like under 700 square feet) on  a postage stamp lot on a noisy main street in a small town just sold for 285K and there were three bids on the first day.  

In part corporeal wise I think some folks want their money in something tangible and usable).  I am happy my house is also appreciating by leaps and bounds but if you sell then where would you go?  HMMMMM.

 

So far as the SL land picture if people are worried about their real lives, making payments, keeping a job etc. they are NOT going to be looking about buying pixel land --- when in fact they can enjoy SL for free or cup of RL coffee a week prices. 

It isn't just land. This May has been the lowest grossing month that I have had in well over a decade. But we made it through the last recession OK so I suspect we will again.    

 

EDITED ADDING: And so far as Belli and policing that has NEVER been fast from day one. The Moles are great (or have been reportedly in the past) fixing bad houses and such -- but covenant breaking claims have been mostly ignored from the beginning.    

Edited May 21, 2023 by Chic Aeon
wrong month adding

[Persephone Emerald]

You're not wrong. The RL economy is bad, so people are not spending as much in SL as they used to spend. People are down-sizing, going to Basic accounts, or just not playing in SL anymore. The new account levels and having more Linden Homes available helps LL hang onto as much of the virtual land economy as they can, but when merchants, landlords and land dealers aren't making money, they're not putting as much into LL's pockets either. I've noticed a few stores moving to smaller shops, which I assume means lower rent or tier payments for them. My guess is that their sales have been down, so they've had to cut costs.

[Rowan Amore]

4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So a group of you will say, "Oh, but it's not, why I just sold..." 

That always happens. It happens either because it's true; as Auden explained -- you're suffering, but someone else is opening a window or dully walking along.

Or people object because they are part of the cartel that wants to keep prices up by saying everything is fine -- and in a way, who could blame them?

To use the word "market" about this toy world is of course terribly misleading, because there are so many artificial constraints. The history of the auction disappears after a week or so and there is no deeds office; you can't see who is bidding, how much, for what, to understand if they are deliberately bidding to jack up the price (of course they are, if you just follow some auctions and TP inworld to see who wins them).

There's a lot of abandoning; there's a lot of crazy pricing ("let me see if anyone will click and buy this G-rated steep, stony waterfront in a nothing sim for $92/m"), etc.

Even so, with all the disqualifiers, it seems to me worse than usual, and I like to understand these mysteries in SL. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so, however, because I see these signs:

o land for sale in Zindra for $5/m -- I haven't seen that in ages

o land abandoned in Zindra

o top bottom-feeding land dealers liquidating at 0.5/meter -- no, they didn't "always" do that. I've been in SL for nearly 19 years now.

o prime waterfront going for $2/m, less

o G land going for 0.9/m

o land "priced to move" never moving -- I think of last year when I easily sold some nice land or even, frankly, last *month* when if I "priced to move* it would.

o quick abandonments after auction wins -- they are land dealers who bid to drive up the price, then abandoned, or, if new to this, realized recurring tier was going to bite hard.

I'm not in the land-selling business. So I don't really know. I only know what I see on the 55 sims where I do have land for *rent* which I visit regularly, which is more than most people look at, but it isn't "hundreds" which of course is what the Lindens see -- if they look, and I'm not sure they do.

Why is this happening? Because it is happening, and your story of how you sold some prime waterfront at top dollar isn't quite convincing me. But try.

My theories:

Answer:

Negative Reasons

o COVID forbearance is over in the States (and likely elsewhere) -- Uncle Joe ended in May 11, and here we all are -- not only are subsidies dried up, prices are shooting up as telecoms, etc. forced to provide subsidies now try to make up their losses, and milk disappears from the stores due to high prices and supply chain issues, etc. etc. COVID killed some people; made others permanently sick; this does affect virtuality. Even in my little world, I still have tenants who died or got sick and struggle.

o Some big landlords are defaulting or being expelled for land cutting, at least until they line up their next alts? There's always that churn but am I wrong it has increased lately?

o Switch from rental from ownership -- I see this anecdotally. Some people ask to rent rather than buy a certain parcel, and of course the pernicious practice of putting land to sale to make it show up on the map, for a ridiculous price so that it won't be bought, but rented, adds to this. While I generally abhor this practice, as I do putting your company's name or logo in the sky to make it show up on the map, with search still so broken, it's understandable and I resort to it as well.

o Overcrowded forums ad space and lack of effective advertising inworld; you see a lot of ugly, spinning "for sale" signs precisely because there is lack of *effective* advertising capacity in SL 

o Lack of diverse land dealers -- once there was a real range from cheap flippers to boutique landscapers because sales were brisk enough to provide incentive. Now they don't, and there are less and less people, with worse and worse practices like ad farms, micro-cutting, donuting, etc.

Positive Reasons

o Bellisseria -- Bellihub, new Victorian open plan, etc.  attracted even more residents away from the Mainland. And that, after all, is the Lindens' master plan, and from their perspective, it makes sense. Therefore objectively speaking, I have to put it in the "positive" column even if not positive for me.

o Homestead purchasing capacity in Premium Plus -- this has drawn away a likely small, but significant cohort of people away from the Mainland; why buy an 8192 when you can buy a homestead for a bit more and have it stay nice?

o Island "purchases" and rentals -- still always a draw away from Mainland, and my impression is that those prices have fallen as the price of sims has fallen

o Spring! People go outdoors. Yes, I get it. Good! Always nice to see people go from being "mouse potatoes" to at least getting a little sun on their pale work-from-home faces. Yes, this happens every year at this time. Yes, it gets even WAY worse in the "dog days of summer" when people are on vacation and dump SL land or don't buy it. But again, I feel it is worse now.

 

 

 

 

As you're very involved in mainland, perhaps you can explain something.  I asked in another thread why LL doesn't make mainland available for.purchase by basic accounts.  It was mentioned that there was some technical reason but not exactly why.  I can understand that rule at the beginning when there was less land available but now?    Would allowing basic account to.purchase up to say a 1024 parcel be  detrimental in some way?  I know it would possibly be so to.landlords, like yourself, but overall?  Just wondering out loud.

[diamond Marchant]

9 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Would allowing basic account to.purchase up to say a 1024 parcel be  detrimental in some way? 

It would be a bad deal. if Basic residents could buy land, they would still have to pay $7US per month for the 1024 tier ($84/year). Premium costs $99/year but net stipend, is approx $39/year, and includes 1024 tier. On a per sqm basis, this Premium included tier is a very good deal for such a small amount. To beat it (just barely), you have to be buying tier in quarter region blocks. (This is why Premium stacking is a good tactic to reduce the cost of tier.)

BTW, the answer of "can't do it for technical reasons" is a hand waving way of saying "not a priority". This was the response I was given years ago at SL-something-B when I asked if a new category could be added to ARs for "Linden Home Covenant Violation".

Edited May 22, 2023 by diamond Marchant

[Prokofy Neva]

9 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

As you're very involved in mainland, perhaps you can explain something.  I asked in another thread why LL doesn't make mainland available for.purchase by basic accounts.  It was mentioned that there was some technical reason but not exactly why.  I can understand that rule at the beginning when there was less land available but now?    Would allowing basic account to.purchase up to say a 1024 parcel be  detrimental in some way?  I know it would possibly be so to.landlords, like yourself, but overall?  Just wondering out loud.

Because they created the tier system as a subscription type. So you can't just buy land one time and keep it and not pay anything more, because land is on servers which require upkeep and payment to Amazon. So the premium account comes with 1024 to put down on a parcel (it used to be 512). I'm all for free accounts. But if you give free accounts also the ability to buy land and not pay tier on it, you undermine the whole system for those who *do* pay subscriptions and tier, because mainly it will be gamed by land barons, not used by newbies.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

Yes there are signs. There is no evidence I am of aware of that suggests that Second Life is growing in any way. I suppose each of has anecdotal evidence that is not favorable... in my case it is Governance, or lack thereof. I have filed ARs that are slam dunk literal violations of the Bellisseria covenant, but they are not acted upon. My takeaway is that Linden Lab is understaffed and is currently prioritizing... one would assume they are focusing their efforts on things that increase revenue (and reduce expenses, like Governance).

Because Linden Lab is private, they are a black box. I  imagine that those who work there are NOT happy to be repeatedly saying "soon" when asked about when is "whatever" going to happen. It feels very much like money troubles.

About land, without understanding precisely "why", we can say that the supply/demand balance has tipped toward weaker demand. More Bellisseria homes have been released... one can now easily get a houseboat it seems... and the BelliHub now exists to help bring noobs up to speed.

My worry is that it is too little, too late. Whatever Second Life is, it does not seem to have a wide appeal. Over 20 years, SL has attracted around 67 million registered users yet there are in the ballpark of 45 thousand concurrent users. Restated, that is a ratio of over 1000 to 1.

Back to the land situation... this is symptom of a much more fundamental problem. The metaverse is no longer the "it thing", and Second Life is likely to remain a niche virtual world until it goes off the air and the investors recover some of their investment by selling off the assets... which includes every single thing every creator has ever uploaded (as described on section 2.3, paragraph 5 of the Terms of Service)

Prediction: They will not sell your stuff as is, rather, it will be sold as fodder to a Generative AI database, so that anyone can construct a 3D model for "give me a cross between an F/A 18C Hornet and a Wright flyer.

 

 

Well, that's awfully bleak. I'd have to think about what you're saying. The "67 million" is an entirely fictitious number to me. People make zillions of alts; many people try SL and never get past the first hour, let alone the first day. In some countries, they cook their poor live births number by not counting infants who die within the first day or first 30 days. So LL would get very different numbers of they counted only accounts that lasted a month. Their ideas about how to make people stick are all wrong, in my view, but since they aren't interested in debating them with people like me, I stopped trying years ago. 

The Lindens are sitting on a gold mine perhaps not so much of 3D content as chat. If they saved the chat, private and public, they would have a very valuable LLM -- like Twitter does, which I think is the reason Musk bought it and was willing to waste billions "fixing" it by his lights. It's worth a lot. They could deploy this gold mine and still ensure privacy -- I think. Although judging from all the copyright watermarks on MidJourney and StableFusion content, I'm not so sure the Lindens could do better...

But instead of the Lindens being the ones to make the first GPT robot, it was me (not the first to make the *script* -- that was Pantera -- but the first to make a robot in a public place with one). And that's me, who knows nothing about what he is doing and just tried this and that. I did see somewhere somebody made a spa with a chatGPT robot -- good!

One key factor in how well a NYC school does in my view is whether the principal is willing to stand at the door every morning and personally greet every pupil who comes in the door, telling them to put away their cell phones, take off their gang colours, and pull up their socks -- whatever is needed -- and learn. Presence is key -- not just authority, but presence. The Lindens no longer have presence in their world (Jack Linden used to stand hours at the telehubs) and their highly manicured and controlled and populated office hours are not what I mean.

And yes, the 3D content we made, sure. It would be great if they could keep it afloat and not undermine themselves or us but I agree it will be a challenge. 

You raised Governance as a factor for land market deterioration -- and I totally agree and should have included it. It's scary that not even Bellisseria gets the Moles coming as my impression is that they came running instantly when there was a problem but that it's only my Mainland areas where they take nine months.

The Lindens actually made a very important exercise of Governance as you may have heard but it can't be discussed. They need to do more about similar things.

But just like they can't make people come indoors from the park in spring, or bring the COVID sick back from the dead, they likely can't make the land market sing as it once did.

My operating theory is that the land market model for the Metaverse likely can never work and tends towards not only the tragedy of the commons, but entropy if not destruction. It's not possible to zone and maintain freedom; it's not possible to maintain freedom and a viable market which people want to participate in. Hence, the solution of Bellisseria, which mainly looks empty to me whenever I visit (rarely) one of my...is it 5 now?...homes there. No, oops, make that 4, I've been letting them go...

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

None of this is new news. SL's economy depends in part on the world economy and if you haven't been paying attention it is in the toilet. Pretty sure I can say that LOL.  I have talked to some SL friends in Europe and same there as the US and the US has some big problems coming up in June.

 

So far as just the LAND part of the equation, SL land does NOT seem to be mirroring its corporeal counterpart -- at least in my part of the globe.   A tiny little house  (like under 700 square feet) on  a postage stamp lot on a noisy main street in a small town just sold for 285K and there were three bids on the first day.  

In part corporeal wise I think some folks want their money in something tangible and usable).  I am happy my house is also appreciating by leaps and bounds but if you sell then where would you go?  HMMMMM.

 

So far as the SL land picture if people are worried about their real lives, making payments, keeping a job etc. they are NOT going to be looking about buying pixel land --- when in fact they can enjoy SL for free or cup of RL coffee a week prices. 

It isn't just land. This May has been the lowest grossing month that I have had in well over a decade. But we made it through the last recession OK so I suspect we will again.    

 

EDITED ADDING: And so far as Belli and policing that has NEVER been fast from day one. The Moles are great (or have been reportedly in the past) fixing bad houses and such -- but covenant breaking claims have been mostly ignored from the beginning.    

On my Black alt, a gang of kids from a European country caught me standing on a dock in Bellisseria and without a word or an argument, pushed and pummelled and hounded me into the lake. I haven't had anything like that happen in SL in some time on an account not tied to my name "Prokofy" or my business, where it would happen for other reasons. It was depressing.

I've seen vendors and even an outright, huge store sign hanging in Bellisseria without action. On these, I was not inclined to AR them because I think one of the most ridiculous rules in SL is the rule against commerce, even though I abide by it as I'd like to keep my accounts there. But it's a big curb on people. They can't have a yard sale. They can't have a tip jar. And there's no outlet for commerce. When there isn't a legal outlet, illegal forms appear.

On the other hand, I had my *second* cat (only one is allowed) returned by a Mole. I've had neighbours with the wrong orbs be disciplined -- good! I presume they break up fights or the worst stuff, no? There are green dot pile-ups in Belli like any place and I don't always fathom what is going on at them...

I get it about the RL economy, truly I do. 

 

[Qie Niangao]

Very locally, in a few regions on the Atoll where I have some land, I've seen large amounts of abandoned land being brought to successful auction in the past couple months, mostly still owned by the auction winner but some have changed hands on the retail market a few times already. If Land Lindens are more aggressively returning abandoned land to tier-paying status at auction, that would pump supply and drop prices.

Or these may just be coincidences. I'm not aware of anybody keeping track of trends in total auctioned acreage, or what becomes of the auctioned parcels.

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

o Some big landlords are defaulting or being expelled for land cutting, at least until they line up their next alts? There's always that churn but am I wrong it has increased lately?

One high profile land splitter seems to have been forced to liquidate several regions of Mainland rentals in the past couple week. More supply, maybe some demand for replacement rental capacity.

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

o Homestead purchasing capacity in Premium Plus -- this has drawn away a likely small, but significant cohort of people away from the Mainland; why buy an 8192 when you can buy a homestead for a bit more and have it stay nice?

Yeah, it's a dreadful deal financially but it's the one thing that tempts me to dump my weird Mainland and Zindra holdings and settle for tamer, saner surrounds. I can see why people do it, even though it's like burning money all to avoid renting through an Estate owner. Can't guess what quantitative effect this has on the Mainland market.

Overall, I think the market is still digesting the runaway success of Bellisseria. That's a whole lot of territory Premium members are occupying instead of Mainland.

[Prokofy Neva]

3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Very locally, in a few regions on the Atoll where I have some land, I've seen large amounts of abandoned land being brought to successful auction in the past couple months, mostly still owned by the auction winner but some have changed hands on the retail market a few times already. If Land Lindens are more aggressively returning abandoned land to tier-paying status at auction, that would pump supply and drop prices.

Or these may just be coincidences. I'm not aware of anybody keeping track of trends in total auctioned acreage, or what becomes of the auctioned parcels.

One high profile land splitter seems to have been forced to liquidate several regions of Mainland rentals in the past couple week. More supply, maybe some demand for replacement rental capacity.

Yeah, it's a dreadful deal financially but it's the one thing that tempts me to dump my weird Mainland and Zindra holdings and settle for tamer, saner surrounds. I can see why people do it, even though it's like burning money all to avoid renting through an Estate owner. Can't guess what quantitative effect this has on the Mainland market.

Overall, I think the market is still digesting the runaway success of Bellisseria. That's a whole lot of territory Premium members are occupying instead of Mainland.

That liquidation you referenced does glut the land market a bit -- but it's simply not a large enough amount in the big picture to be the reason for why prices were bottoming out BEFORE this.

Yes, the Lindens move so fast on abandoned sometimes that the music is left in "Sound" and even builds are left. I saw a piece turn over within 24 hours of me requesting it and go instantly to auction. They pretend they are doing you a favour when they do that. They aren't, of course, but I don't care. I know precisely what will happen to that piece, and so do you: it will be bid up to keep up the price for certain land dealers; it will be flipped within the hour of the win; or it will be abandoned to start the whole lovely process again. 

I can't tell whether they do more or less abandoned now overall -- I think it still moves at a clip. But we just don't know because they don't tell us. Even if we made a "watch committee" of 100 of us watching parts of the Mainland constantly in real time with human eyes or perhaps a script of some kind, we still wouldn't know because we can't know if the actors involved are all alts of the same people or not.

I generally stay far away from Zindra except for my one little cabin area I've had for years for "working people" -- but I was tempted by that $5/m or less land. You know the formula certain long-time high-priced dealers use. They can keep their expenso land baking in the sun even for a year at a time because what they eventually sell it for, will cover the tier they expended keeping it for sale at that price. I find this crazy and personally can't endure a formula like that, plus I don't want to be in the land sales business at all. You have to keep a trading tier open and keep a weather eye on lists and sims and I'm just too old for that stuff.

There seemed to be NO Victorians in Belli at first when they announced open-plan; then there were -- I think when they get big rushes of demand like that, they put out a lot of new houses and sims. I don't know whether they keep them filled...

 

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

It would be a bad deal. if Basic residents could buy land, they would still have to pay $7US per month for the 1024 tier ($84/year). Premium costs $99/year but net stipend, is approx $39/year, and includes 1024 tier. On a per sqm basis, this Premium included tier is a very good deal for such a small amount. To beat it (just barely), you have to be buying tier in quarter region blocks. (This is why Premium stacking is a good tactic to reduce the cost of tier.)

But for those who don't pay yearly, it would be $143 a year.  Some budget money so just paying $7 a month for land would only be roughly $5 more per year than premium.  Not bad in my book.

 

[diamond Marchant]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

But for those who don't pay yearly, it would be $143 a year. 

My point still stands. As one must pay tier, Premium is a a good deal... and you get more groups and priority in TP, which IS occasionally useful. (On another topic, $99 vs $143 is predatory! net stipend, it is $39 vs $83, more than double... escandalosa)

Edited May 22, 2023 by diamond Marchant

[beethros Karas]

A few years ago, ( 2009 ) Greece went down.
Same as USA is today.
They had to borrow money in order to pay them army, doctors, teachers, gov employees..

That lead to a land price drop.
7 years ago, a flat of 60m.sq. in the 2nd floor of the Capitol ( 2 small bedrooms ) sold for €14.000 !!!
The next day the new owner rent it out for €300 a month.
Now, 7 yers later the rent is up to 450 a month!
Great Investment! Isnt it?   -> https://en.spitogatos.gr/to_rent-homes/kalithea/

Same, property prices went rediculus down.
Even today, after all these years, where food prices are double or triple,  someone can buy a house ( not in the capitol or in a city ) for less than €10.000
My landlord would sell the house I am renting right now for €15.000 if I wanted. It is a 1024m parcel with a house of 55sq.m. (1 bedroom)  Fully furnished and with great insulation and heating system! Go figure! --> https://goo.gl/maps/2XZjsvLWdpbsfqUU8
( I always wanted to find someone from SL to buy a house IRL and rent it out to me with a 10 years lease contract!) <--Thats YOU!
Something like this --> https://en.spitogatos.gr/property/1113558111 or like this  --> https://en.spitogatos.gr/property/1112279749

Every year, in SL for the reasons mentioned above, but also for many other reasons, traffic gets down.
And so, it is the best period for someone who is interested in long term owning lands, to buy properties!
For example, I just bought this 3x protected parcel the other day for the rediculus price of L$1,7 per meter! (Next door they asking L$58,0/m)
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Arpeggio/160/20/40
While at the same time I am selling SLRailroad for L$2.0/m and other protected parcels for the same L$2,0 per meter! While they go normaly for L$5,0/m
Same as IRL , same as in SL ...

[Love Zhaoying]

I didn't see in the OP: oversupply.

More supply than demand, is a basic explanation of, "Why is the Land Market Doing So Poorly?".

Edited May 22, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Alwin Alcott]

It's not new seeing LL bring new things inworld, polish it carefully, and... after a while it's more or less abandoned from support. What we also see with Belli since a long time. The help of Moles isn't gone, and perhaps they'r running around whole days to repair, reset and write fines, but it disappears from our experience. It's like the spirit is fading, a bottle of soda slowly loosing the bubbles. I told this several times when Belli got it's covenants, that's partly why i'm so against such cevenants,  leaded even to a total dislike, also by action, by the government but during the time it proved the right of my feelings. .. adding more and more to the fineprints is a sign of weakness, not able to maintain the global situation and people breaking it becaus they cán. We see the same mechanism in RL : more rules, less control and hardly any consequenses while courts and police are to busy to do something against it.

For me the disapearing of forumpresence about two weeks ago, was fist surprising, but changing into a in a sort of shock that LL pulled back from their users, and not in a  good way.
Stop talking is the start of real misery in ány relationship.
And for me it was part of the magic of SL .. the investment of time inworld by the office that owns and runs it, that magic is changing to something not  named yet.

However i'm still against more ruling for mainland it's unavoidable, i think it would improve a lot when LL would bring more landscaping there, a wide variety of parcel-sizes, but use a quarter of the regions to landscape, bring down the amound or direct neighbours, because that's something that drives people nuts with the fugly privacywalls and concrete prims up to 100 feet//meters. ..and stop stacking skyboxes from 25 to 4096 meters. t's absurd and leads to nothing than annoyance.
And open it for basic .. ehm.. yes, could be worth a try. But again.. if they set rules, guidelines... don't use it against people that speak out on forums, but work with it inworld.

I love SL to much to leave. I'm not very social inworld, hang mostly only at my home. But i'm cutting down. Had 9 premiums in 2021, went to 2 p+ and a normal  P 2022, this month i go to 1 premium, downgrading the + to zero. This isn't only for economical reasons, but start loosing confidence in the partner in this, LL.
I always made fun about the "sky is falling" threads.
But to be honest.. i'm not so sure about that anymore.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

use a quarter of the regions to landscape

Hopefully this would result in more "2X" prim land!

[encidious Opus]

10 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, it's a dreadful deal financially but it's the one thing that tempts me to dump my weird Mainland and Zindra holdings and settle for tamer, saner surrounds.

Please IM me if you "dump" your mainland/zindra parcels, which are wonderful locations. 😉

Anecdotally, my SL rentals are extremely slow, probably matching the worst I have seen. The RL economy though, even with all the doom and gloom I read about, seems to be doing very well. People are out and spending money.

[Rowan Amore]

7 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

My point still stands. As one must pay tier, Premium is a a good deal... and you get more groups and priority in TP, which IS occasionally useful. (On another topic, $99 vs $143 is predatory! net stipend, it is $39 vs $83, more than double... escandalosa)

It's still how some people have to purchase premium.  It's why other places offer the same option My car insurance is cheaper the more months in advance I pay for as does the city Natatorium where I live.  

My question was, why does LL not allow basic members to buy mainland.  Seems to be plenty available.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

My question was, why does LL not allow basic members to buy mainland.  Seems to be plenty available.

This suggestion is great! Basic members would still have to pay land tier. Just no "free" LL home or other Premium perks. 

I predict that if LL changed the rules so Basic can own Land: there'd be an initial loss of revenue from users who went to Basic from Premium. But, it would attract more users to buy land who otherwise may have rented to avoid the Premium fees. So over time, the loss would be overtaken by new income from Basic members buying land.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

This suggestion is great! Basic members would still have to pay land tier. Just no "free" LL home or other Premium perks. 

I predict that if LL changed the rules so Basic can own Land: there'd be an initial loss of revenue from users who went to Basic from Premium. But, it would attract more users to buy land who otherwise may have rented to avoid the Premium fees. So over time, the loss would be overtaken by new income from Basic members buying land.

I went and checked our city's natatorium rates.  It's actually $10 more if you pay per month as opposed to full year price.  THAT seems a bit excessive but again, people budget their monies differently.  They also have a daily rate that is great for people who would only use the facility infrequently.  If one doesn't need the extra groups or priority access (not guaranteed), basic with the ability to own your own land without renting from a 3rd party, is a good option, IMO.

[Lewis Luminos]

On 5/22/2023 at 1:04 AM, Persephone Emerald said:

 having more Linden Homes available 

 

On 5/22/2023 at 7:52 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

 oversupply.

 

Aside from the global recession and people stripping back on their entertainment budget, this. Now that Bellisseria has just about enough homes to accommodate everyone in just about any theme they wish (with the possible exception of Stilts and Trads), there's less demand for mainland because more people are going to Bellisseria instead and letting mainland go. This means that there's FAR more mainland available than there's demand for. Plus, you can get any patch of abandoned land for L$1 per sq. m just by raising a support ticket, so anyone selling land (except coastal) for anything more than L$1 per sq m is going to have a tough time trying to sell. 

I'm one exception to all of this - three premium accounts and no Linden Home at all, because the tier for all three is tied up in my mainland holdings. But this is land I've owned for years, land which isn't changing hands at all. And my next-door neighbor has owned his land for longer than I've had mine (since 2009) so that's another factor; residents who are keeping their land long-term rather than constantly flipping and moving.

 

[Marianne Little]

The economy is bad all over. In my country, the NOK is so low against US, I used to pay 400 NOK for 10 000 L.

Now it is 500 NOK for 10 000 L. That includes some Tilia fee increase too.

I am renting a nice place - VERY nice for Mainland, and it is only 999/weekly. Since I do not have to pay 25% VAT for renting, I simply can not buy Mainland, because the tier would be too much to pay.

I have gotten used to the amount of Li for 4096 m, and what would nice land like that cost to buy? Maybe 50 000 or more. Unobstructed water to south and west.

If I go Premium and buy 4096 m land, I have to pay tier for all that land, even if I have 1024 m free. It is no tier step between 2048 m and 4096 m. And Premium Plus is priced way too high. 2 Premium accounts is cheaper, but still 200 US to pay.

LL's land cost and tier model is too expensive. Tier was too expensive already when EU forced VAT on me, the economy has made it even worse. I understand that LL has electrical bills to pay too, and their employees have to manage on their pay, they can not let all their staff go and so on... but it is quite *****ty all over the world.

I can defend spending 4000 L on land monthly, even if I have to manage as disabled. Because I have too much pain to go out on the town, I barely purchase clothes since I do not need new clothes, I do not pay to commute to work since I am not working etc. So expenses is balancing against my lower income well, especially since my work was not very well paid. It was gruelling physical work for *****ty salary.

But if the landlord decides to leave SL and I am evicted, I will not buy land. It is too much.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Marianne Little

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

5 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

LL's land cost and tier model is too expensive.

It really is and I feel like they could be making more money, and getting more people to own land if they re-vamped their tier model. 

*shrug*

[Teresa Firelight]

LL is a business. They create SL not just for our pleasure, but also to pay the bills. That means that some things in it cannot be free.

Land used to cost a lot more than it does now, but other things (like buying Lindens) were a LOT less expensive. When the price of one thing goes down, the price of something else must go up.

Personally I dont think I want to see them lower the tier structure cuz other things I depend on will get more expensive to compensate.