Casino in Second Life? is Gambling Back?

[Istelathis]

23 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If regular SL users get sucked into online gaming with this venture, who benefits and who loses?

At some point we just have to leave it to people to moderate their own behavior, if someone develops a gambling habit over this, there is little we can do other than just ban it entirely.  Using the same line of reasoning, we could also ban gaming in general, as some people are unable to moderate their gaming habit when it comes to FPS, MMOs, or any games really.  There are entire communities out there, which have been established just for gaming addicts to share their experiences, help one another recover from their addiction, warn others of the impact it has had on them.  Some people have lost their jobs, their homes, their spouses, entire families have been torn apart because some people can not step away from their gaming platform and see to their obligations, responsibilities, and the only thing they care about is staying in the virtual landscape.

I think the same can probably be said about SL, there are certainly people who are addicted to this platform, have spent thousands upon thousands purchasing virtual goods, I'm sure there have been divorces, people who have lost their homes, and so on.  We could go further and move on to the web in general, some people spend all of their time just browsing the web, especially social media sites, they neglect their families, their homes, jobs, etc. 

From an ethical perspective, it sounds good to put up some guard rails to help these people out, but then it comes at the cost of everyone else that have a sense of responsibility, who know when to step away, which puts into question another ethical conundrum.

I'm of the mindset that we can not save people from themselves, at least not without making life really boring for everyone else.

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

So, here's a question ...

Can anyone do the same and set up a casino now? Exactly like this one? Same games, same rules, same pay to play? Only difference is that those L to buy tokens go to a resident?

It would actually seem more ethical if it were a resident owned casino, IMO.

[Qie Niangao]

1. What about this couldn't be done by a resident on their own private island? Well, for one thing, they sure couldn't call it a "casino"—at least not before now. So what's different now? and does that apply to everybody else now, too? Can everyone open one in competition with this outfit? If so, what differentiates the Lab's venture? [ETA: This is exactly what @Katherine Heartsong asked in her posting above, while I was typing in befuddlement.]
2. Can they offer non-monetary benefits specific to the platform, in exchange for game winnings? Win a free name change for a gazillion non-negotiable Lindobux? That would be a differentiator.
3. Is there some way this makes SL more marketable to a buyer? Some buyer? Some buyer the current owners think they can pitch?

Edited May 10, 2023 by Qie Niangao

[Persephone Emerald]

I hope all the skill game regions now remodel as casinos. They can pay out on non-skill slot machines and roulette wheels with tokens that are only usable for prizes, while the "skill games" can continue to pay out in lindens.

[AzureWaves]

Well you notice they're not exactly advertising it, it's just posted on twitter.

[EliseAnne85]

49 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

So, here's a question ...

Can anyone do the same and set up a casino now? Exactly like this one? Same games, same rules, same pay to play? Only difference is that those L to buy tokens go to a resident?

I've been wondering this myself as I am sure other's have also.

I stop short at wondering if we issue some kind of token, does it involve the "no banking rule" in the TOS which really is only for lindens I think.  So, the no banking rule is probably not involved although I haven't doubled checked it.  

So, maybe but having a winner and a loser is the real definition of gambling especially when one has to pay in to play so can't do that part.  It's like the ante.  One pays into the ante to play poker which then becomes the pot of money as people continue to bet they will have the winning hand or they bluff they have a winning hand by raising the bet high even though they may have a junk hand.  That's what real gambling is.  

So, this no one wins except tokens to play more is an unknown thing to me.  I have no idea what it is.  Right now, it is defined as "role play" Casino.  So, why not?

Edited May 10, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Your investigative reporting may suggest that the enterprise was a "partnership" between LL and some non-LL persons.
 

Or perhaps, placing the casino "offshore" instead of on Mainland has indirect reasons, such as avoiding possible controversy due to perceived conflict with any particular Mainland covenant. 

I sort of thought that also although the land tab says it is a LINDEN owner.  This shot didn't make the blog. 

[diamond Marchant]

45 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Lindobux

I likey

[Chic Aeon]

47 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

1. What about this couldn't be done by a resident on their own private island? Well, for one thing, they sure couldn't call it a "casino"—at least not before now. So what's different now? and does that apply to everybody else now, too? Can everyone open one in competition with this outfit? If so, what differentiates the Lab's venture? [ETA: This is exactly what @Katherine Heartsong asked in her posting above, while I was typing in befuddlement.]
2. Can they offer non-monetary benefits specific to the platform, in exchange for game winnings? Win a free name change for a gazillion non-negotiable Lindobux? That would be a differentiator.
3. Is there some way this makes SL more marketable to a buyer? Some buyer? Some buyer the current owners think they can pitch?

1.  I can't see any reason why not. If it is legal for LL it should be legal for anyone.  Go forth and make a casino. Add music and DJs to yours. Cut the pricing down some.  OR just make it FREE (what  a novel concept).  Actually "I" think that would be bad also since it promotes the gambling thing, but better than HELIOS. 

 

2.  The "gacha" or "gambling" rules say that you need to know what your are getting.  So if you needed 5000 "coins" to buy a new outfit from (insert popular clothing or body designer here) then why not?   Part of the gambling issues from OH SO LONG AGO is that whoever owned the machines (not unlike gacha machines) controlled how LUCKY the slots were.   But who's to say that LL has great odds?

 

3.  The "official" casino would likely be more popular with new folks. Oldsters I doubt it. Give people more for their money and they will likely flock to THAT casino.

 

I was thinking it might be time to picket but maybe this will all take care of itself if others jump on the bandwagon AND perhaps (I really doubt it but who knows) that was a secondary effect hoped for -- getting more sims filled.   

 

Time will tell. Good thoughts though.   

 

PS. I have been waiting for the new marketing scheme for a long while now.  Maybe The Lab has unconsciously given it us!  

Edited May 10, 2023 by Chic Aeon

[Silent Mistwalker]

SocialCasino Linden

SocialCasino

Social Casino

🤔 hmm

[EliseAnne85]

44 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Part of the gambling issues from OH SO LONG AGO is that whoever owned the machines (not unlike gacha machines) controlled how LUCKY the slots were.   But who's to say that LL has great odds?

So, it was the script was fixed by owner of machine that was the issue.  Well, that's how gambling works in some ways.  Slot machines and lotteries are some "programmed" types of gambling, I'd guess.  

But,, receiving a prize out of an arcade machine in real life is not gambling.  One knows one gets a prize out of the machine.  

However, LL has something in their policy, I was just reading, that we cannot use "payouts" for things that can be traded for lindens or real money.  So, that could be the issue that came about with Gacha and that's why these casinos cannot give out lindens but only tokens that cannot be exchanged for real money.  However, LL Casino's all the tokens are not truly "free".  

What if no Linden dollars or other "consideration" are accepted or paid out?

If entry is truly "free" (as with a promotional sweepstakes), and the game's operator requires no "consideration" or payment from other players or entrants, then that activity will likely be permitted, assuming compliance with all other applicable laws.

If the "payout" involves objects that are more akin to novelty objects that cannot readily be converted into Linden dollars, real-world currency or value, then that activity will likely be permitted.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_Regarding_Wagering_in_Second_Life?_gl=1*aiccdb*_ga*NzU3NTE0ODc3LjE2NzgyODc3MTQ.*_ga_T7G7P6DCEC*MTY4MzY4NTA5Ni4xNC4xLjE2ODM2ODUzMjguNjAuMC4w

[Chic Aeon]

13 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

  So, that could be the issue that came about with Gacha and that's why these casinos cannot give out lindens but only tokens that cannot be exchanged for real money. 

So as long as items are no transfer wouldn't that fix the transfer  issue?

 

Waiting to see where this goes with the populous.   

 

To be honest I didn't read all your posted details. Too late and too tired. Busy day - just commenting on this part.  

[Jaylinbridges]

If SocialCasino Linden is actually a Linden owned bot owned by Linden Lab, and it is illegal to impersonate a Linden unless you are part of Linden Lab, then this is just another money earning scheme for Linden Lab.  You buy Lindens and pay a hefty fee in dollars. You buy their "chips" which have no trade in value with your purchased lindens, and eventually lose all your worthless chips, and need to buy more lindens from LL, paying their dollar buying fee again.  

I can see why LL would think this is the perfect scheme to increase earnings.  If you think LL has any moral issues with gambling, you have not been paying attention to what has been going on in SL for the last 20 years.  Their TOS is only to protect themselves from civil or criminal action in the real world.  This social casino scheme violates no RL laws, since the player has no chance of winning anything, and is told that in advance.

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[NeoBokrug Elytis]

 

[Skyler Pancake]

4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Anyone underage isn't allowed in Moderate regions so it's not really them we need to be concerned with in respect to this particular thing in SL.  It's the adults who already have a gambling problem.  Even winning more worthless tokens might give them the same rush.

Caused it's totally impossible for a teenager to make an account and simply lie about their age..

[Skyler Pancake]

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Idea: For extra tokens, make users watch videos about the benefits of Premium membership, Land ownership, etc. Like a timeshare does, when you go to get the prize they mailed you about. 

Regular users only get 120 tokens each day. Premium users get 250! Premium Plus get 500! Sign up today and get your free tokens!

I can 100% see Linden Labs doing this.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, NeoBokrug Elytis said:

 

This "fixes" nothing, only makes it slightly less egregious, tone deaf and out of touch.

Does anyone remember asking for this .. pretend Linden Gambling while Anubis (god of funerary rites, protector of graves, and guide to the underworld) pretends to serve drinks.

If one of us made a pretend casino that operated this way in SL .. we would get abuse reported for gambling, and if the visting member of the abuse team realized the jig and didn't nuke the site on the spot, we would be constantly reported for keeping people's winnings ... if anyone showed up ... which they wouldn't.

 

[NeoBokrug Elytis]

39 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This "fixes" nothing, only makes it slightly less egregious, tone deaf and out of touch.

I think it's current incarnation was already tone-deaf and out of touch.  I won't argue with you there.  But I think that by removing the potentially endless "pay for more credits" option, would shore up what is arguably the worst received aspect of this project.  By paying for extra credits to play, it has a lot of the keynotes of the early phone app development days.  Folks would spend thousands of dollars non-refundable tokens for the privilege to play a game.  But when that mechanic is coupled with something like traditional games of chance specifically branded as a Casino, it feels exceptionally... dangerous.

In the wild-west days of Second Life, when LL got rid of actual casinos and banks, residents understandably felt punished.  When LL made Skilled Gaming a thing, and let other folks bear the burden of following the laws, residents were confused.  Now that LL is hosting "totally not gambling, just for funsies, you can buy more credits too" social space, residents feel as if Linden Lab is being a hypocrite.  At least that's what I'm reading everywhere.

I think removing the purchasable credits, upping the amount of default play time per day, and adding more via account membership level, would hit a lot of the goals Linden Lab wants.  Draw people in to socialize, add some premium accounts to the monthly bill.

There are already fun gambling themed games that have no rewards other than bragging rights already on the grid.  Some of them are exceptionally well done.  I kind of see those as a personal pocket slot machine game.  Aside from the cost of the game itself, nothing is really lost or gained.

I think it's cool that Linden Lab is exploring creating new activities for residents.  And I think Linden Lab intended to make a fun social space where people could play games together.  Hence:  SocialCasino Linden.  But I also think there are many more cooler ideas the time for spent on this project that could have been used for something different; and that the general poor reception of this requires re-evaluating its execution.  I think in order to begin making this right, LL should consider refunding L$ purchases, and making positive changes.

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by NeoBokrug Elytis

[Istelathis]

There are a few $2 token slot machines off to the side, so we should be able to get at least 60 button pushes to release some of that sweet dopamine every day for free 🙃 I saw some $2 token Blackjack tables as well.  I'm not sure if we can decrease the amount anymore than that though.  I tried to make it less, but had no luck so I am assuming $2 is the least one can spend.

Perhaps they could offer some free games to keep the place a bit more active, give Anubis a personality to chat with, randomly reward patrons with extra tokens every few minutes, add a spot for someone to DJ or have shows, put in a pawn shop to trade in useless items in exchange for tokens, place treasure chests in random spots that will reward tokens.  

I don't know, I believe it is likely in a few weeks the place will probably be dead if left as is, a few people might spend their linden on tokens but otherwise I don't think it is going to generate very much money for LL as it stands now, not enough to justify the expenses for keeping the region running full time while not enticing people to stay logged in.  Without anything to purchase with the tokens, I can't imagine it being an active environment for long.

 

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

4 hours ago, AzureWaves said:

Well you notice they're not exactly advertising it, it's just posted on twitter.

Wondering if they're testing the waters on this?

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

14 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

we should be able to get at least 60 button pushes to release some of that sweet dopamine every day for free

Exactly my words!

*looks in old to-do list*... "Make Fisher Price Activity Center-like device for that sweet dopamine"

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, NeoBokrug Elytis said:

In the wild-west days of Second Life, when LL got rid of actual casinos and banks, residents understandably felt punished. 

LL hates competition, it just took this long for LL to get revenge with their own casinos that have their own ATM's.

[Prokofy Neva]

I visited the site and found a protest of sorts going on by some notorious characters who have been in the news quite a bit with controversial activities -- oh, and a guy sporting the usual eminently ARable thing.

It looked hastily built with plywood in one place still showing and no drinks at the bar; the bartender is a kind of horse.

Indeed, you pay real Lindens to buy chips that...go nowhere. If you win at the slots, great -- you can't cash them back out. 

It seems absurd, and yet likely there will be people to game it, in the way the pizza making was gamed in the Sims Online by having people bet on outcomes of the pizza machine game on the side and exchange winnings privately outside the game. 

If this is suppose to be a "social occasion," it's hard to understand how that works. 

I wondered if in fact LL put this up to show some regulator something -- or to have traffic go to their own venue and pay into their own vendors, rather than some of the other top places that get a lot of traffic -- and even more, since said notorious characters began featuring them on their site. 

It's all very weird, like somebody's Situationalist art installation, which in turn engendered other Conceptual Art happenings. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Exactly my words!

*looks in old to-do list*... "Make Fisher Price Activity Center-like device for that sweet dopamine"

For reference, ST:TNG had an episode with an addictive game from the 80's. Users got a massive dopamine rush.

 

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

ST:TNG had an episode with an addictive game from the 80's

Wait.. Which 80's?