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Why, in Second Life, jerks are a minor problem.


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8 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Second Life implies and inspires the question "what's wrong with your first".

I'm not sure how you arrive at that inference, except that

8 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Everyone prejudges experiences. This is how people make decisions. This is basic human nature.

If you arrive here unsatisfied with your RL, I imagine it might lead you to expect that SL will be "better".  On the other hand, if you are like me and have a pretty good RL, you come expecting that SL will be "different".  There's a world of difference between those, sort of like the difference between "glass half empty" and "glass half full". The perspective is going to tell more about you than about SL.  After all, SL is "your world, your imagination".

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24 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Especially in static photoshopped pictures .. People coming to SL after finding those first feel tricked.

I don't know about that.  None of my photos for the past couple of years have been edited at all and I think they show off SL.pretty well.  They also show a fairly diverse look at what people have built.  Anyone going to any of the places in my photos would and should be impressed by what can be done here...by us.

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I don't think changing the name would fix the problem of new users not sticking around long enough to put money into this platform. 

There is much to keep people here once they find their personal communities and make friends with people, but first they have to get over the new user hurdles.

LL seems to be trying to fix the new user experience. I hope they can.

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3 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

I'm not sure how you arrive at that inference, except that

If you arrive here unsatisfied with your RL, I imagine it might lead you to expect that SL will be "better".  On the other hand, if you are like me and have a pretty good RL, you come expecting that SL will be "different".  There's a world of difference between those, sort of like the difference between "glass half empty" and "glass half full". The perspective is going to tell more about you than about SL.  After all, SL is "your world, your imagination".

This isn't a personal opinion. I didn't come here for the name, I came when they released a native Linux client. At the time almost nothing got much attention on Linux so I had to check it out. I had no intention to stay, give it a poke and see what it is my partner at the time was spending their days doing. It's actually worth mentioning they felt the need to warn me about the kind of content in SL, and that they didn't think it was a good idea if we both played the same virtual world (ha!). But it was ok as she liked There.com a whole lot more, because this place had "issues".

 

If you pay attention to social media, when SL is mentioned in non-SL circles the comments fill up with the same old tropes about SL from people who haven't spent more than 5 minutes here if that. If people have tried SL they comment on the graphics, if they haven't they comment on the people who use it. This is how it's always been.

We're the butt of jokes about Meta's offering.

The term "Second Life" inspires a reaction. That reaction is broadly counter to the goals and intentions of the platform. It doesn't matter if that says more about the person making the judgement than it does about here, the point is they aren't here making that judgement with the rest of us.

In crowd elitism will be the death of us.

Also, it's not "your world, your imagination", that dream is dead and irrelevant. It serves no one to cling to fallen foundational hopes and dreams, least of all us.

 

22 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I don't know about that.  None of my photos for the past couple of years have been edited at all and I think they show off SL.pretty well.  They also show a fairly diverse look at what people have built.  Anyone going to any of the places in my photos would and should be impressed by what can be done here...by us.

The first rule of photography is composition, it is the most powerful tool in the box. Everything else is just a stylistic choice.

A well composed screenshot can capture a moment and inspire more from an observer than if they were present while it was being taken.

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12 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This isn't a personal opinion. I didn't come here for the name, I came when they released a native Linux client. At the time almost nothing got much attention on Linux so I had to check it out. I had no intention to stay, give it a poke and see what it is my partner at the time was spending their days doing. It's actually worth mentioning they felt the need to warn me about the kind of content in SL, and that they didn't think it was a good idea if we both played the same virtual world (ha!). But it was ok as she liked There.com a whole lot more, because this place had "issues".

 

If you pay attention to social media, when SL is mentioned in non-SL circles the comments fill up with the same old tropes about SL from people who haven't spent more than 5 minutes here if that. If people have tried SL they comment on the graphics, if they haven't they comment on the people who use it. This is how it's always been.

We're the butt of jokes about Meta's offering.

The term "Second Life" inspires a reaction. That reaction is broadly counter to the goals and intentions of the platform. It doesn't matter if that says more about the person making the judgement than it does about here, the point is they aren't here making that judgement with the rest of us.

In crowd elitism will be the death of us.

Also, it's not "your world, your imagination", that dream is dead and irrelevant. It serves no one to cling to fallen foundational hopes and dreams, least of all us.

 

The first rule of photography is composition, it is the most powerful tool in the box. Everything else is just a stylistic choice.

A well composed screenshot can capture a moment and inspire more from an observer than if they were present while it was being taken.

I am just gonna say this if you don't like SL and are actively cynical against it and are one of the very verbal naysayers. Why don't you just leave? All I see everytime I see these forums, when it comes to you and SL is you being cynical and basically, SL is failing. Okay if it is. Where is your proof that it's failing? Actual concrete evidence, cite your sources please. 

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10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If you pay attention to social media, when SL is mentioned in non-SL circles the comments fill up with the same old tropes about SL from people who haven't spent more than 5 minutes here if that. If people have tried SL they comment on the graphics, if they haven't they comment on the people who use it. This is how it's always been.

We're the butt of jokes about Meta's offering.

The term "Second Life" inspires a reaction. That reaction is broadly counter to the goals and intentions of the platform. It doesn't matter if that says more about the person making the judgement than it does about here, the point is they aren't here making that judgement with the rest of us.

You hear that because it sounds better than :"I could not figure it out. The learning curve was too steep. It's way too expensive (land)" That is what you start hearing when you dig below the surface which I did with some IMVU friends who tried to make the transition from there to here.

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Sorry, @Coffee Pancake.  I didn't mean to imply that it was your opinion about SL.  I meant that a person coming to SL finds what she expects to find, which is what you seemed to mean by "Everyone prejudges experiences. This is how people make decisions. This is basic human nature."  

18 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If you pay attention to social media, when SL is mentioned in non-SL circles the comments fill up with the same old tropes about SL from people who haven't spent more than 5 minutes here if that. If people have tried SL they comment on the graphics, if they haven't they comment on the people who use it. This is how it's always been.

That may be true. I don't know, because I haven't done that study (and because I don't have anything to do with social media, but that's a different story). We're both talking about the same thing here: preconceptions.  It might be interesting to look at people who comment on social media and examine the subset of them who actually come to SL.  My guess is that the subset is biased toward people who don't fully accept the "same old tropes" but are interested in seeing for themselves. I agree that it would be very smart to develop strategies for changing those old tropes over the long term. For now, though, I think a more realistic strategy is to focus on those people who actually come willing to see for themselves. And my refined version of that strategy is to appeal to the sub-subset who are looking for "different" rather than "better".

Edited by Rolig Loon
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21 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

A well composed screenshot can capture a moment and inspire more from an observer than if they were present while it was being taken.

Well, I've been in SL for 13 years and I'm still amazed by what people build here.  To me, seeing it 'in person' usually exceeds the expectations from a mere well composed photo.

A great picture of the Grand Canyon will never replace being there.  Same applies, IMO, to places in SL.

 

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2 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I am just gonna say this if you don't like SL and are actively cynical against it and are one of the very verbal naysayers. Why don't you just leave? All I see everytime I see these forums, when it comes to you and SL is you being cynical and basically, SL is failing. Okay if it is. Where is your proof that it's failing? Actual concrete evidence, cite your sources please. 

OMG, thank you.

All I see from about 5 forum members are negative things.  SL won't fix this. It's been this way since the beginning. LL is greedy.  The forum sucks now. I'm not going to give my free time to help other people so LL can save money. Creators suck, The platform sucks. On and on and on. If you don't like it then just go.

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5 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

OMG, thank you.

All I see from about 5 forum members are negative things.  SL won't fix this. It's been this way since the beginning. LL is greedy.  The forum sucks now. I'm not going to give my free time to help other people so LL can save money. Creators suck, The platform sucks. On and on and on. If you don't like it then just go.

I just got fed up with it, and wanted to say something. I mean they do have a right to their opinion, but they seem to make the same opinion every time. It is getting old, so why not just leave and find other new exciting things to do? Yes, there are things about SL that irks me, specifically creators not optimizing their clothes. But I don't buy from them, I don't sit in there group and actively nag and complain about it. Like I don't get it, I was taught if I don't like something or some place, don't use it or just leave.

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39 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Especially in static photoshopped pictures .. People coming to SL after finding those first feel tricked.

   Well, to be fair, the majority of edited SL pics look worse than they did raw. 

   And what do you propose then, that LL start hunting down people who edit their pics and slap them on their fingers for misrepresenting their product?

   Here's an unedited shot of SL, shot in Firestorm, with no magical filters or other junk, with my usual setting for just hanging around places - and even with my extremely limited furnishing skills, I honestly don't think it looks at all bad. And hey, I even cam-clipped an armchair, oops.

Snapshot-087.png

   Here's another unedited shot of what SL looks like when I bump up the graphic settings a little and adjust the sun position, and just zoomed the camera in a bit - shot in a mainland build, no less:

Snapshot-081.png

   I'm not entirely sure what standards you're expecting if you think that SL in its current state looks bad. It doesn't. Yeah there are old builds all over the grid that aren't very aesthetically pleasing or up to today's standards, and a lot of people apparently have no idea what a human being actually looks like, but .. That's what SL is, user-made content, slapped together by other users. But perhaps you're thinking that's a part that should be cut out to appeal to 'journalists' and newbies as well? 

56 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Those authors have no idea because LL & Second Life fails to manage and create expectations. They have no idea what's here because they are not being informed and directed on the way in the door. A door it's important to note they wouldn't be walking though if their boss hadn't handed them the assignment. Their experience is no different from regulars uers, only they are being made to write a homework assignment about the experience.

   So they log in, look around the new user island and go 'well that's awful' and call it a day - that's them not doing their homework, that's not on LL nor SL. It's a bit like they'd write a review of Driver without ever making it through the garage level. 

   Renaming SL isn't going to change anything.

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The one thing SL doesn't do, regardless of any new features they may add or rebranding they may do, is entertain you, in and of itself.  If people come here expecting to be entertained without putting in a lot of effort, they will always be disappointed.  Making the new user experience easier, simplifying the viewer, making everything gamer ready will not keep people here who expect to be entertained.  Games entertain by their nature.  Coming to SL?  Not even close.

Is there a solution?  Probably not.  Sure make the default movement keys industry standard.  Make customizing your avatar easier.  Make that inventory easier to find things.  All great ideas.  Then what?  New users come here asking for friends or places to DO something.  Where is everyone?  No one talks to me?  WHAT'S THE POINT OF THIS GAME?  Or my favorite...Where's the free sex?   LL can't fix that with a name change.

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I think there are a lot of images that are set up to try and get the best shots they can with lighting and things like that.. More for artistic reasons than to try and fool anyone.. Then a lot of photoshop  images for the same reasons, as well as a lot that get made for adds too..

But Honestly, if someone is going to wonder about how second life really is in the world, they are more than likely going to go to youtube and watch some videos about it rather than go from still images.. that's pretty much where gamers and anyone goes, because there is nothing like game footage to get a feel for a game or a world..

 

Anyways, I don't think you have to try too hard to get nice pictures in Second life.. I mean you can make really great images  and set up all kinds of things for a certain scene and have projectors around and  things like that..

But sometimes the simplest shots show it off too..

I always really liked this one because of how much it shows off  what the world can do without trying to do too much but wear  well textured things and let them get the spotlight..  There really is nothing special about it but wearing nicely made textured items and  finding a nice relaxing pose..

I've always really loved this one for some reason over a lot of the ones that I tried a lot harder  on.. hehehe

52634350610_4ff25baae8_c.jpg

 

Edited by Ceka Cianci
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1 hour ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I am just gonna say this if you don't like SL and are actively cynical against it and are one of the very verbal naysayers. Why don't you just leave? All I see everytime I see these forums, when it comes to you and SL is you being cynical and basically, SL is failing. Okay if it is. Where is your proof that it's failing? Actual concrete evidence, cite your sources please. 

If your takeaway from criticism about SL, it's direction, branding, marketing or lack thereof is that we must hate SL (and should leave!) you are sorely mistaken. I might even suggest that you spend a little introspection on why you're invested to the point that any discussion is such a threat that you take it personally.

You want concrete .. We have been pushing this party for 20 years, and at the instant of writing have only convinced 43,000 people and bots to join us on the adventure. It's an order of magnitude away from where we should be (and a long way away from where we have been).

We've been playing the same tune for the last decade. It's the wrong one.

This is very much understood by Linden Lab and upper management, why else would they be investing in development and improving the starter experience. The platform is stagnant and has real problems with retention and growth. If those problems can't be solved we all lose.

55 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Here's a hardline opinion: If a potential new user has come here with expectations fueled by their experiences anywhere else and they find it lacking and leave ... good.

In crowd elitism will be the death of us.

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The one thing SL doesn't do, regardless of any new features they may add or rebranding they may do, is entertain you, in and of itself.  If people come here expecting to be entertained without putting in a lot of effort, they will always be disappointed.  Making the new user experience easier, simplifying the viewer, making everything gamer ready will not keep people here who expect to be entertained.  Games entertain by their nature.  Coming to SL?  Not even close.

The thing is, "find your own fun" isn't event mentioned anywhere.

That expectation is not defined or managed. How many people do we lose because they came expecting more of a curated experience, or perhaps more importantly, how many never try because they don't expect to set their own agenda.

I do really wish LL wouldn't be so shy about the presence of adult content. Second Life has something of a super power in that it's able to attract and retain a more mature demographic and a relaxed sex positive atmosphere is a big part of that.

My focus on the name is party driven by it being time for a change, the branding and message it imparts is as stagnant as the population growth. It allows people to paint us with the same brush they have been painting us with for the last two decades. At this point, only the bad remains.

A refresh isn't a bad thing if it gets us a second look, perhaps from people who wrote the offering off years ago, now being a little older, might find themselves a better fit.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Then what?  New users come here asking for friends or places to DO something.  Where is everyone?  No one talks to me?  WHAT'S THE POINT OF THIS GAME?  Or my favorite...Where's the free sex?   LL can't fix that with a name change.

I'm just borrowing this because when SL was first here in it's beginning, everyone was so friendly and wanted to know everything so we got and asked constant questions...where did you get that, how did you make that, do you want to come to my yardsale, do you want to come to my party, do you want to go to the place with the free sex.  Plus, all shopping was inworld, which aside from building was also something to do.  We all just seemed to talk to everybody and most of us it seemed wanted to just do it because everything was a new experience.  Free sex I thought?  It was open hills with people making out and I sat and talked with a friend by the lake.  But, it was just ask and go and see everything constantly, and friendly and not pushy either even at the free sex place, the person who invited me did not insist, we just talked.  Never met a jerk way back then.

As far as SL gets boring, rl does too, so do rl relationships, so does TV, so does music, so does your job, and on and on.  There are just times when one needs to take a break or start doing something else, @Coffee Pancake

My two ideas just at the never ending question about newbies and what to do... could 1) SL add new inworld tools so everyone can build if they want, maybe even make an avatar, and 2) maybe have RL musician artists have concerts here.  The problem is devices really.  Most people are on phones and then may have a gaming computer but most games with driving a truck sound super boring.  Most games, aside from SL, sound like the boring ones to me.  But, phone and gaming computer are the two main devices it appears people seem to own now and I think this has made SL slow in some ways...too many people on phones and not much can be done about it.  I wish there was something that could be done.

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44 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

New banner for Second Life...

If you thought Real Life was difficult, you should try Second Life!  😁😂

Yeah but if one's relationship starts to get dull, they can try new things together.  If our jobs get dull, we could ask for a promotion.  If SL, gets dull, and I see this said a lot on this forum, maybe take a break for awhile and do something else.  Sometimes we need to figure out how to break up the monotony and it's not always easy.  Passion can ebb and flow.  

SL was, at one time for creating and in some ways like Open Sim, at least from what I've heard of Open Sim as I've never visited OS, in that it was hardly built yet.  

My passion for Second Life has ebbed and flowed over the years but I don't think it has anything to do with the name nor jerks as I haven't met too many jerks in my nearly two decades here - no not at all really, maybe one.  

Sorry for rambling but life is difficult.  So is SL.  It's known in the press for it's high learning curve.  

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2 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

That's nice. 

Don't care.

Not "elitism" whatsoever.

If you want such a broad scope, go build your own world. Otherwise, quit trying to turn Second Life into its competitors or trying to branch out into areas it simply does not belong to nor need to even touch.

And you wonder how we get the impression you'd rather see SL empty out than improve.

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Blinded by the light .

I searched google for the opposite of Geek and got no answer because its forbidden nowadays to say normal .

Geeks are incapable of seeing things from a perspective not entirely based on their own learned "skill" for want of a better word .

Introduce somebody who has no interest in computers to SL and every time they ask "why" you have identified a problem that should be fixed .

I had never heard of SL, I was just looking for something different to do because browsing classic cars for sale on ebay to kill time was getting old .

Expectations were absent, it was just a curiosity , and what kept me coming back was having too much free time to fill and the nagging supposition that there has to be more to SL than the desolate abandoned ghost town of a game that i found ?

 

 

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1 hour ago, cunomar said:

Blinded by the light .

I searched google for the opposite of Geek and got no answer because its forbidden nowadays to say normal .

Geeks are incapable of seeing things from a perspective not entirely based on their own learned "skill" for want of a better word .

Introduce somebody who has no interest in computers to SL and every time they ask "why" you have identified a problem that should be fixed .

I had never heard of SL, I was just looking for something different to do because browsing classic cars for sale on ebay to kill time was getting old .

Expectations were absent, it was just a curiosity , and what kept me coming back was having too much free time to fill and the nagging supposition that there has to be more to SL than the desolate abandoned ghost town of a game that i found ?

 

 

Nah, the opposite of "Geek" used to be "Jock" and/or "Bully". Everyone knew that except Geeks. See: Every John Hughes 80's movie, and Revenge of the Nerds movies, etc. 

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45 minutes ago, cunomar said:

I never did sports i'd get caned instead because my mother couldn't afford the correct P.E kit and the nerds would hide behind me when the bullies were about , maybe i'm a geock ?

Here's another new word that might be interesting to look up:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humblebrag

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