Difficullt start for new participants?

[Rowan Amore]

18 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

What does the new person need? Move, sit, buy, teleport, talk/chat, quit. inventory.

Camera position usually needs to change on sitting. So they need camera to be behind for not sitting and camera in front for sitting. When I sit down on a couch and see just a blank wall, they don't need that experience. They don't need camming, believe it or not. They can cam to my teleporter, teleport, and have a blue screen with a small dot in the center. They don't need that.

they don't need to change environment, and they don't need to change hover height.

They do need a simple viewer, and the skills they learn should translate to the real viewer,

Inventory is needed, works intuitively, and the search is nice. Get rid of number of items and folders, name, search options, recent, worn, additional options, add new items, and that whole recent thing at the bottom. In other words, probably 80% of the 500 menu options are not needed.

The recent and worn tabs in inventory are actually quite useful when telling someone new where to find something they recently acquired or to detach something they want to detach.

[Christina Halpin]

15 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

What they need is to use the actual Viewer and ignore functions they are unfamiliar with/that were not covered during their Orientation until such time as they might actually need to use them/be told to do so through a notecard or a Helper.

The actual advanced controls are behind a set of options one has to explicitly toggle.

this is not true.  First, it assumes a menu option is as easy to find when there are 500 options as when there are 20. To take a simple example, someone who wants a listing of who is nearby might click on the button with two people and the word "people". But aren't they just as likely to click on the button that has two people on it?

It assumes that the advanced options never are accidentally triggered. When an advanced option is accidentally triggered, it can take skill to diagnose the problem, probably including knowing the advanced option. It assumes that no one tells them how to chance a setting.

And I will note that sitting is something that should be easy for the beginner, as it leads, for example, to sex. But it requires a lot skill when sitting leads to looking at a blank wall.

I am currently having an unpleasant experience at SL because the environment happens to be night at the land. Do we expect the beginner to just put up with that? To say they can avoid advance options implies good defaults.

 

 

 

[Christina Halpin]

38 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The recent and worn tabs in inventory are actually quite useful when telling someone new where to find something they recently acquired or to detach something they want to detach.

Okay, you say "quite useful". How many items does the beginner have in inventory? Can't they just search them all? That's my memory.

I once looked for something I had recently bought, AND IT WASN'T THERE! I was counting on it. So, when you explain about recent, you need to explain the time deadlline. Worn is not needed, I went 10 years searching for "worn" and having no trouble finding what I was wearing. Now I use "Current Outfit". I have never used WORN.

The point  is to ask what  beginner needs, and what will make the beginner's experience good. That means realizing the RECENT and WORN are not extremely useful.

[Solar Legion]

Yeah no - it is true.

Learn at your pace, get help and avoid/ignore menu entries you are unfamiliar with/that were not explained to you until such time as you're comfortable using them or have had them explained. This is not a difficult thing to do/a difficult concept.

Unless you are randomly hitting specific key combinations that really would not be used as a general rule elsewhere ... you're not going to accidentally toggle any of the actual Advanced items.

Manipulating the camera is a basic function and was something that was actually covered once upon a time - such a thing as an example is ... not a good example (to be polite about it).

As far as finding functions within the menu system ... some TPVs actually added in the ability to search the menus - and preferences - for specific terms. If the Mainline Viewer has not implemented this, they are indeed missing a useful function.

Either way: There is no need for a "simplified" Viewer. There is a need for better Orientation.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Christina Halpin said:

What does the new person need? [...]

they don't need to change environment,

 

14 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

I am currently having an unpleasant experience at SL because the environment happens to be night at the land. Do we expect the beginner to just put up with that? To say they can avoid advance options implies good defaults.

 

 

[Christina Halpin]

8 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

 

As far as finding functions within the menu system ... some TPVs actually added in the ability to search the menus - and preferences - for specific terms. If the Mainline Viewer has not implemented this, they are indeed missing a useful function.

 

are you telling me that someone tried to reduce the problem of too many menu items by ADDING A MENU ITEM (to search the menu items)? And, it is not easy when you are a beginner to know the right items to use in a search.

 

[Christina Halpin]

8 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

 

 

I am happy to talk about this. I assume Mid-day is a reasonable default and no one is going to have a bad experience if that's the default.

What is the default for a beginner? I was worried it was the land setting.

[Solar Legion]

Just now, Christina Halpin said:

are you telling me that someone tried to reduce the problem of too many menu items by ADDING A MENU ITEM (to search the menu items)? And, it is not easy when you are a beginner to know the right items to use in a search.

I am telling you that some TPVs made it easier to find items in the menus by including a search box. Just as they did with the preferences.

If you find that overly complicated ... there is no aid to be given whatsoever.

If you're so truly insistent on this idea that there must be some overly "simplified" version of the Viewer ... go and write it yourself, present it as an option, get some feedback.

This was already attempted and it failed spectacularly. What you are suggesting will end the exact same way - without any question or doubt.

You want to improve things for newer users? Improve their Orientation Experience. Teach them how to use the Viewer and leave pointers to functions. Have an actual documentation set that can be searched through if one has questions.

This is not difficult whatsoever.

Now, argue about it all you want, it's a waste of time. Better things to do/be doing.

[Theresa Tennyson]

7 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

I am happy to talk about this. I assume Mid-day is a reasonable default and no one is going to have a bad experience if that's the default.

What is the default for a beginner? I was worried it was the land setting.

So, you're saying that the best experience for a new person will be going to a place they see advertised with luscious atmospheric lighting and discover that they're seeing it under harsh high-noon lighting where all the shadows go straight down including on people's faces and they have no way of changing it?

Edited January 8, 2023 by Theresa Tennyson

[Christina Halpin]

24 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

 

Either way: There is no need for a "simplified" Viewer. There is a need for better Orientation.

In my experience, when a system is difficult to use, the developer and manager is unaware of the problem. And when the developer becomes aware of the problem, the user is blamed. So you are pushing the wrong buttons here for me.

I assume we agree that that people are pushed away by the difficulty of using SL. The OP is just the tip of the iceberg, trust me; one of my sayings is that MENSA is easier to join,

You are saying that you cannot make an intuitive, simple browser that gives a pleasant experience for the viewer? That may be true. In my experience, taking out options is simple. Thinking what it's like to be a beginner is very difficult, but you could just watch one some day.

 

[Rowan Amore]

34 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

Okay, you say "quite useful". How many items does the beginner have in inventory? Can't they just search them all? That's my memory.

I once looked for something I had recently bought, AND IT WASN'T THERE! I was counting on it. So, when you explain about recent, you need to explain the time deadlline. Worn is not needed, I went 10 years searching for "worn" and having no trouble finding what I was wearing. Now I use "Current Outfit". I have never used WORN.

The point  is to ask what  beginner needs, and what will make the beginner's experience good. That means realizing the RECENT and WORN are not extremely useful.

They normally ask, " I just bought something and can't find it in my inventory ".  I then explain the recent tab and to check Objects folder.  I also explain how to.change the time for recent items.  If they purchased it from the MP, I explain received folder.

The recent and worn might not be useful to YOU but any new person I've helped has found it " quite useful".  

 

[Solar Legion]

2 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

In my experience, when a system is difficult to use, the developer and manager is unaware of the problem. And when the developer becomes aware of the problem, the user is blamed. So you are pushing the wrong buttons here for me.

I assume we agree that that people are pushed away by the difficulty of using SL. The OP is just the tip of the iceberg, trust me; one of my sayings is that MENSA is easier to join,

You are saying that you cannot make an intuitive, simple browser that gives a pleasant experience for the viewer? That may be true. In my experience, taking out options is simple. Thinking what it's like to be a beginner is very difficult, but you could just watch one some day.

I am saying that there is no need whatsoever for such a "simplified" Viewer. There never was. There never will be.

The primary problem is in Orientation/Onboarding, information presentation and documentation. The secondary problem is in new user expectations.

I came here - quite some time ago - from AOL. I was familiar with using menus and such from other programs and games of that era. I was also familiar with the idea that no two User Interfaces are going to be alike. Nor should they be, beyond the superficial.

I went through orientation, poked around, learned more as time went on. I am still learning, especially as more is added in.

What buttons I am pushing for you are quite irrelevant: Take it or leave it. Not in the mood for this merry-go-round.

[Solar Legion]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

They normally ask, " I just bought something and can't find it in my inventory ".  I then explain the recent tab and to check Objects folder.  I also explain how to.change the time for recent items.  If they purchased it from the MP, I explain received folder.

The recent and worn might not be useful to YOU but any new person I've helped has found it " quite useful".  

Quite so. There is a reason so many entries and options exist .... Wide-scope net.

[Rowan Amore]

Also, FWIW, the OP spent less.than a day before making his initial.post here.  Curious?

 

[Christina Halpin]

5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So, you're saying that the best experience for a new person will be going to a place they see advertised with luscious atmospheric lighting and discover that they're seeing it under harsh high-noon lighting where all the shadows go straight down including on people's faces and they have no way of changing it?

I am first agreeing with the OP that we have a problem. I am second of all saying that we should be giving them a viewer that gives them a pleasant experience. This means, among other things, not have 500 menu options (or however many there are). So it means NOT HAVING AS PLEASANT EXPERIENCE as is theoretically possible if they knew everything.

It's a TRADE-OFF. I already suggested that viewer perspective should be changed to "in front" upon sitting, and I can find you at least one person who would not like that for their land (me). And they can switch to the regular viewer. And it's aways a trade-off, experienced users don't do what they need to do to have the optimal experience at my art gallery.

Thanks! Good question.

[Arielle Popstar]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

They normally ask, " I just bought something and can't find it in my inventory ".  I then explain the recent tab and to check Objects folder.  I also explain how to.change the time for recent items.  If they purchased it from the MP, I explain received folder.

The recent and worn might not be useful to YOU but any new person I've helped has found it " quite useful".  

 

But you had to explain it to them. It was not intuitive. That is the point.

[Christina Halpin]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Also, FWIW, the OP spent less.than a day before making his initial.post here.  Curious?

 

How many days does one have to spend at SL having unpleasant experiences before tending to enjoy the experience? three weeks?

How many days do you expect them to spend having unpleasant experiences before they quit? Two seems unrealistic to me.

So, not curious to me, and I am wondering what your estimates are. I would guess that the OP's experience was normal except for stopping by to give us feedback.

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

But you had to explain it to them. It was not intuitive. That is the point.

Kind of is when you open inventory and see a Recent tab.  I just assumed they weren't too bright.  😁

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Christina Halpin said:

How many days does one have to spend at SL having unpleasant experiences before tending to enjoy the experience? three weeks?

How many days do you expect them to spend having unpleasant experiences before they quit? Two seems unrealistic to me.

So, not curious to me, and I am wondering what your estimates are. I would guess that the OP's experience was normal except for stopping by to give us feedback.

Read a previous post I made in this thread.  It was probably a couple weeks before I figured stuff out.  As I said, you do need some perseverance and a sense of adventure.  Sort of like RL experiences.

[Rowan Amore]

In case you can't find it...

On 1/3/2023 at 11:18 AM, Rowan Amore said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  I came into SL with basically NO gaming or even computer experience.   I muddled through.  I didn't complain about the complexity of the UI or the controls.  I wore boxes.  I walked into private residences and got thrown out.  I spent a couple days not realizing there was an IM window.  Fell to my death off a suspended bridge which scared the crap out of me.  I met trolls and griefers.  I also met some great people that helped me.   All these years later, I'm still here.  Still muddling through mesh bodies, heads, BOM and EEP.  

I came in with NO expectations.  NO outside help.  NO videos I watched before joining.  Nothing but a profound sense of adventure and it's been a wild ride ever since.

Perseverance.  That's ALL it takes.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

4 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

At some point a few users might need to engage in some self reflection as to why they believe that Second Life should be listening to their suggestions - especially when said "suggestions" are "Why aren't you like 'unrelated piece of software'?" At best.

This isn't IMVU. It isn't VR Chat. It isn't The Sims ... and that is good.

Back to your regularly scheduled attempts to steer Second Life in the direction of being more like something else.

Maybe Secondlife should listen to suggestions because they ask us for them. Not that they follow up on them but they do ask and even hold plenty of meetings supposedly for that purpose though reality is they are more for an info session to tell us what they are and are not doing.

It isn't IMVU or the Sims but that does not mean those platforms don't have features that could be beneficial and well lets face it, when S/L has the least concurrency of any of those, maybe they bloody well should. The corporate narcissism you are promoting here has resulted in stagnation.

I'm sorry you don't get that using ideas brought in from other platforms is not the same as becoming them. When I wear an outfit that looked good on a friend, I don't become that friend. 

Back to you.

[Christina Halpin]

31 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

 

If you find that overly complicated ... there is no aid to be given whatsoever.

 

Yes! Thank you. Third step: "You are too stupid or lazy to use our system, it is not built for people like you." (First step -- assume it's easy. Second step -- "learn it's not easy to use? Then the user has to learn more.")

I mean, are we saying you need an IQ of 130 and a substantial investment of time before SL becomes anything but a frustrating experience? I think we are agreeing on that, just taking a different perspective on what should be done.

[Christina Halpin]

To replay to Rowan. First, what percentage of people have your perseverance? No offense, but yours sounds really strong.

And did you want SL to appeal only to people who do not have that much perserverance? It seems like a lot. I would have though the best strategy is to draw people in and later have them learn more.

And not so relevant, but SL might have become harder over the years. I am guessing that is true for mesh. I don't know if there are more menu options.

[Solar Legion]

That's nice.

You done putting words on my fingers/in my mouth yet? Done pretending?

Doesn't matter much.

[Love Zhaoying]

Some of this "not intuitive" stuff could be as easy as, having little "helpful" windows come up with arrows pointing to stuff, outlining windows, etc. "Modern" style "Tips" that are contextual with whatever the users are doing. 

OTOH, hundreds of thousands of people have tried and used Second Life. Humans in general are supposedly getting more computer literate, not less. What's wrong with this picture? Have users gotten less patient, less intelligent, or..are the minority who complain just getting a lot of attention?

It makes a certain sense if the Second Life platform and GUI gets "poor usability" reviews from anyone in the media who is a non-geek. But why in the world would "game" users listen to reviews by non-geeks?

Too many contradictions in all this.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Love Zhaoying