Scammed Hard by [a large landowner]

[Violette Elf]

I've been playing for over 5 years now. I've never had any issue or scam that got more than 1k lindens from me. I was wondering if anyone else was scammed by [their large landowner] ? I had a couple lands, one was 4k prims, the other was about 700 prims. The 'real' owner took over and kicked me and all my neighbors out. I had a few months worth of rent paid ahead. I tried to report from my viewer, was sent to a separate web page I cannot login to. I'm not too bent out of shape, they took off with some money, not more than what I'd ever carry in cash on my person. So, it's like being pick pocketed. I figure others may have been hurt even more if they had a shop, or a regular meeting club, or relied on SL for their primary source of socializing with friends.

As much as I've been putting into the game, I decided it was time to go Premium Plus. I've been learning more about building to be able to manage a full sim anyhow, for my own enjoyment and sharing with others to have fun too. For now on, I'll just deal directly with Linden Labs to play on land. It's a better deal financially as well as far as I can tell. I was just wondering if anyone else had a similar problem? I'm a bit lost about what to do, if anything.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Quartz Mole
redacted name of landowner

[Aethelwine]

Reporting from the viewer won't help, Linden Lab are likely to consider it a resident to resident dispute. You need to talk with the Estate manager to seek resolution, they should have the receipts and will be able to see what has happened and explain or provide redress if you have been wronged.

Also the forum has a rule about not naming and shaming. You should probably remove the name of the estate from your post, and if possible from the title of your thread or the moderators will be doing so for you. 

[Violette Elf]

I have no idea what has happened other than I paid for some lands, as normal for months. Paid months in advance, then was booted with all the neighbors. I never dealt with any residents, so not sure how that is a resident to resident dispute, just someone using the gaming platform to scam, apparently. I suppose if that's the sort of business practices the game supports, then that's fine. I didn't find anything in the terms of service that said it was okay to steal from the players? I had no idea this was allowed, but not allowed to be questioned. Seems like some odd rules to me.

[steeljane42]

36 minutes ago, 22violette said:

I never dealt with any residents, so not sure how that is a resident to resident dispute

It's a resident to resident dispute because you paid for the rental services to other resident. LL doesn't and can't know what your deal with them was. And it's entirely in land's owner right to, say, increase their prices by 10000%, or just sell/abandon their land without any notice. Does it suck when stuff like happened to you is the case? Absolutely. But given it's not too large amount of money consider it a valuable lesson. Either pay for land to LL directly, or do some research and rent from those who have years of good repuration and take this seriously.

For example Chungs have been around SL forever and own thousands of regions, residental and commercial onces. Prices aren't the lowest, but you get what you pay for, without some sudden tier increase and other hassles. There are others like that, too. Like Dreamseeker, WRE etc

Another important note if you'd ever rent again - check you're paying to the estate owners/tier boxes owned by them (or their tech/support accounts).It's easy to check, just open region/parcel tabs and check who the estate/region/parcel owner is, then check owner of the rental/tier box.

There's a lot of subrentals around, those who rent from above-mentioned large estates and just re-sell it. Now those might vanish randomly, kick you out etc. There has been the case 3 years ago I think, when right before Xmas someone like that dropped around 10-15 regions with their sub-renters and then estate owner had to step in and fix that mess herself the best she could even if some of those scammed people were angry at her (they did check she was an estate owner and thought it was her doing).

36 minutes ago, 22violette said:

I had no idea this was allowed, but not allowed to be questioned. Seems like some odd rules to me.

Pretty standard rules. Now I don't say it didn't happen to you, otherwise I woudn't bother to type the rest, but anyone can hop on forums and say "I've got scammed by X" even if it's not the case. Where that X might be a popular store for example. Now forum userbase is rather small, but it still might start some rumors and hurt said store's reputation.

Edited December 10, 2022 by steeljane42

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, 22violette said:

I have no idea what has happened other than I paid for some lands, as normal for months. Paid months in advance, then was booted with all the neighbors. I never dealt with any residents, so not sure how that is a resident to resident dispute, just someone using the gaming platform to scam, apparently. I suppose if that's the sort of business practices the game supports, then that's fine. I didn't find anything in the terms of service that said it was okay to steal from the players? I had no idea this was allowed, but not allowed to be questioned. Seems like some odd rules to me.

Look at it more as linden lab is a server space provider and all those places you visit, as their own web sites and online businesses..The space provider has rules for those that run the web site, but they don't get into each disputes a customer has with a web site or online business. That's a customer to business dispute or user to user dispute..

In a game you have the game company and the customers.. In SL you have the space provider, then each place you visit, is like jumping into someone's game or world and then there is us who visit or do business with those many different worlds..

As a gamer it's better to look at Linden Lab's SL as like a Steam or Uplay rather than a game itself when dealing with other places you go to.. Unless they are public lands and places run by linden lab governance themselves.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Nick0678]

Next time don't pay long term.

That will minimize your loss if you get scammed and also it will be easier for you to change places in case you are bored.

I rented 5 regions for 6 years and always paid them on a weekly basis.

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, 22violette said:

I have no idea what has happened other than I paid for some lands, as normal for months. Paid months in advance, then was booted with all the neighbors.

In Second Life, paying for land months in advance isn't "normal."

[Quartz Mole]

Please do not post names of residents or businesses here if you are making allegations of fraud or other misconduct.   

It's against the Forum Guidelines and, at the very least, the names will be removed.

[Bree Giffen]

I also pay on a weekly basis but lately I pay a few weeks advance because it's been such a long term and reliable rental. It seems the OP is willing to pay for land and going premium might be the best thing. 

[brodiac90]

You're best paying tier directly to the Labs. It will be more expensive but a lot more reliable. 

For example, I only have my premium house boat. 

If you are going to rent, only pay a week at a time. 

 

 

[Violette Elf]

The guilty parties have been banned by LL. The '[a large land owner]' I paid is defunct, as is the company name that I originally rented from. What the take away I have is..... I will no longer do any land business with any parties that are not on US soil, physically. Anyone can do a google search and find out that SL land issues have been brought to RL court, and there is precedent for these issues. I would be satisfied with an apology, but I am not holding my breath. I hope this does stay up. There is no way to organize all that are affected, since the names of the banned 'companies' are protected, even though LL themselves have investigated and banned the guilty parties. The real land owner was very informative, asked me to report directly, and no one can tell me how to do that.

 

LL can and does keep track of all the IP addresses, just like any other hosted online platform. The real owner did no wrong, only unknowingly doing business with scammers, like me and many others. The real owner did the best they could by at least letting everyone know what had happened and giving most a chance to pick up their no copy items, they didn't have to. I wish it were a rule to give a 48 hour notice in the future of this ever being a repeated event. Everything could have disappeared into the ether with no explanation. I really didn't want to pay again for something I had already paid for. If it happened once, it will happen again. All I really wanted to know, is if there is anything I should be doing? I couldn't even find a way to report the fraud.... and no one has been helpful with that so far. Seems to me that it would be in the interest of LL to organize all those affected in case they wanted to pursue a class action lawsuit for the abuse of their platform, or at least explain the loopholes that allowed this to happen. The best thing I can do is share my experience and hope it doesn't happen to anyone else.

 

Moving forward, when I have settled some RL things, like moving and a change to my career, I'll just go full sim and deal directly with LL. I went Premium Plus, so I am exploring that. So, far, I recommend it for serious players. The little land neighborhoods have roads that anyone can rez a car and take your AVs for a drive. It's cute and the 'neighbors' are friendly. In the fantasy area, I'm finding many are very friendly and playful. I tried a stilt house, but the waves gave me motion sickness. I've not tried any of the other exclusive features, but I'm sure they are as described. My only question is why are all the full sims available limited to 20k prims? Are these on older servers? It seems newer servers can host 30k with the same amount of data.

 

Money isn't a problem, my time is limited. Time is what I value most, and in the end, that's what was stolen from me along with countless others. I only make payments for anything once a month. I manage my time very strictly. I paid SL rent each time I paid my RL housing expenses, because my time is so limited. I have no doubts several will never touch the game again, as there is no known way to have any recourse, or at least organize for a discussion. For me, I met the man I'm going to marry next month playing SL, so, this is just like having someone steal from me. There isn't a good guide anywhere about the common scams in SL, so others can avoid it, or at least be aware it's so prevalent. I have a feeling this happens regularly. I've seen a few, but they were very obvious.

 

Anyone that is following to inform me of the rules, it's very helpful to provide a link. Explanations are not as much, if I can read those, I can read what is published by LL.  The forum is huge, there's pages and pages of policies, so that would be much more helpful in the future. Thanks for your time to read what I took the time to write.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by 22violette

[Violette Elf]

On 12/10/2022 at 2:55 PM, Bree Giffen said:

I also pay on a weekly basis but lately I pay a few weeks advance because it's been such a long term and reliable rental. It seems the OP is willing to pay for land and going premium might be the best thing. 

Yes, I think for anyone willing and able to put up some monies for serious builds, premium is the way to go.

[Orwar]

6 minutes ago, 22violette said:

LL can and does keep track of all the IP addresses, just like any other hosted online platform.

   Changing IP addresses has been very simple to do for ages (IP banning people in online games was basically pointless by the late 90's/early 00's), using a VPN can make you basically untraceable as far as IP is concerned. 

8 minutes ago, 22violette said:

What the take away I have is..... I will no longer do any land business with any parties that are not on US soil, physically.

   That's your prerogative, but most businesses in SL don't have any physical office, and you don't really have any kind of way to confirm any particular person in SL is or isn't in the US. I reckon most folks won't want to upload photocopies of their passports onto the Internet to rent out a piece of land for a few bucks a week.

12 minutes ago, 22violette said:

Yes, I think for anyone willing and able to put up some monies for serious builds, premium is the way to go.

   Premium's land inclusion is 1024 sqm and 351 prims - you're not going to do a whole lot of 'serious builds' on that; what you'd have to do is pay the monthly land tier fee to cover your in-world land size, and purchase land (either from other users, or firing up a private region).

[Violette Elf]

31 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Changing IP addresses has been very simple to do for ages (IP banning people in online games was basically pointless by the late 90's/early 00's), using a VPN can make you basically untraceable as far as IP is concerned. 

   That's your prerogative, but most businesses in SL don't have any physical office, and you don't really have any kind of way to confirm any particular person in SL is or isn't in the US. I reckon most folks won't want to upload photocopies of their passports onto the Internet to rent out a piece of land for a few bucks a week.

   Premium's land inclusion is 1024 sqm and 351 prims - you're not going to do a whole lot of 'serious builds' on that; what you'd have to do is pay the monthly land tier fee to cover your in-world land size, and purchase land (either from other users, or firing up a private region).

It's just more secure to do a full sim directly with LL, the rest of your points are moot. US law covers hardware located in the US, operated by US owned companies. VPN only protects you from advertisements and some data trades, it doesn't get you out of legal loopholes, just makes it have extra steps. Precedent for this issue is established. I will not link this as I have no desire to defame or discredit LL. The game is fun when it's played well. The parent company of LL changes hands regularly, just check your stock reports.

[Polenth Yue]

34 minutes ago, 22violette said:

The guilty parties have been banned by LL. The '[a large land owner]' I paid is defunct, as is the company name that I originally rented from. What the take away I have is..... I will no longer do any land business with any parties that are not on US soil, physically. Anyone can do a google search and find out that SL land issues have been brought to RL court, and there is precedent for these issues. I would be satisfied with an apology, but I am not holding my breath. I hope this does stay up. There is no way to organize all that are affected, since the names of the banned 'companies' are protected, even though LL themselves have investigated and banned the guilty parties. The real land owner was very informative, asked me to report directly, and no one can tell me how to do that.

The forum doesn't allow naming because they know how that would end, but there's no special protection for those involved. You can use their name inworld and contact your former neighbours if you'd like. But the hassle for a court case really isn't worth it for the sort of money that's usually involved in Second Life. The people got banned. I'd take that as a win and move on.

As to what exactly happened and what you're trying to do now, I wasn't sure after reading the thread. It helps to tell people directly what happened and what you did when things didn't work as expected. We can try reading between the lines and make guesses, but those could be wrong. In this case, my guess is you might have clicked to report a problem and got sent to the jira website. That's the wrong one for what you wanted. You need the abuse report function. It's "report abuse" in the "Help" menu on Firestorm and should be similar in other viewers. Only "report problem" if it's a technical fault or bug, not for anything involving residents.

[Violette Elf]

4 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

The forum doesn't allow naming because they know how that would end, but there's no special protection for those involved. You can use their name inworld and contact your former neighbours if you'd like. But the hassle for a court case really isn't worth it for the sort of money that's usually involved in Second Life. The people got banned. I'd take that as a win and move on.

As to what exactly happened and what you're trying to do now, I wasn't sure after reading the thread. It helps to tell people directly what happened and what you did when things didn't work as expected. We can try reading between the lines and make guesses, but those could be wrong. In this case, my guess is you might have clicked to report a problem and got sent to the jira website. That's the wrong one for what you wanted. You need the abuse report function. It's "report abuse" in the "Help" menu on Firestorm and should be similar in other viewers. Only "report problem" if it's a technical fault or bug, not for anything involving residents.

Yes, that is a really great explanation! I was really curious to see if there was something special I should be doing. I don't really care that much about the small financial loss, a couple hundred bucks, nothing I couldn't do without in the end. I didn't know if there were set policies or procedures to follow. It's not worth MY time to pursue legal action, but it has been done before with larger estates, IRL court, and I would be more than happy to offer assistance if LL needed to take that sort of action.

I've never had any issues that I felt the need or was urged to report, so, I've never done so. I was sent to some website that was unfamiliar, and none of my credentials were accepted. That's why I posted in the first place.... not to stir up a pot or have my time wasted with some advice that isn't helpful. You and the ones that have messaged in-world are good eggs, and much appreciated! Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[Rowan Amore]

17 minutes ago, 22violette said:

It's just more secure to do a full sim directly with LL

 

1 hour ago, 22violette said:

Yes, I think for anyone willing and able to put up some monies for serious builds, premium is the way to go.

Just an FYI.  You do not need to have a premium account to purchase a private island/region/sim.  You DO need one to purchase mainland.

[Violette Elf]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

 

Just an FYI.  You do not need to have a premium account to purchase a private island/region/sim.  You DO need one to purchase mainland.

Really? I have been interested to try this, but have not looked into it that hard. I was thinking of a max budget of 5k USD a year for gaming, but I'm fussy about where the physical servers are located to protect my own legal/ethic/personal interests.

[Rowan Amore]

Perhaps after 5 years, you should learn a little about how land works in SL before making any future investments.

 

[Violette Elf]

23 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Perhaps after 5 years, you should learn a little about how land works in SL before making any future investments.

 

It's just a hobby for me. Thanks for the link.

[Lewis Luminos]

2 hours ago, 22violette said:

Really? I have been interested to try this, but have not looked into it that hard. I was thinking of a max budget of 5k USD a year for gaming, but I'm fussy about where the physical servers are located to protect my own legal/ethic/personal interests.

All of the servers used by Linden Lab are owned by Amazon and, afaik, they are located in the USA.

A private region will cost $2748 per year, plus a setup fee of $349. So that's well within your 5k per year budget.

 

[Violette Elf]

9 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

All of the servers used by Linden Lab are owned by Amazon and, afaik, they are located in the USA.

A private region will cost $2748 per year, plus a setup fee of $349. So that's well within your 5k per year budget.

 

Yes, that is what I have gathered as well! That's about what I have calculated. I've spent a year on a crash course learning all I can about digital art, scripting.... etc..... I've been without my RL physical art studio for about a year, got bored and decided to spend that time and budget in SL since it's such a space saver. Thanks for taking your time to reply, you are very helpful to affirm what I was calculating.

[Resi Pfeffer]

34 minutes ago, 22violette said:

Yes, that is what I have gathered as well! That's about what I have calculated. I've spent a year on a crash course learning all I can about digital art, scripting.... etc..... I've been without my RL physical art studio for about a year, got bored and decided to spend that time and budget in SL since it's such a space saver. Thanks for taking your time to reply, you are very helpful to affirm what I was calculating.

I feel you. I spent the summer mainly on my maxi yacht cruising costa smeralda up and down, but as internet connection wasnt always the best despite all those satellite antennas, i went straight back home.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Just an FYI.  You do not need to have a premium account to purchase a private island/region/sim.  You DO need one to purchase mainland.

TIL!

[Nick0678]

14 hours ago, 22violette said:

I will no longer do any land business with any parties that are not on US soil, physically.

Right .. because as we all know business that are on US soil are legit. Take Lehman Brothers for example