SLinking around the grid...

[Lindal Kidd]

...I've noticed that most creators are no longer issuing products for SLink hands, feet, and bodies. Time was when being SLink-compatible was as de rigeur as being Maitreya-compatible is today. But this change seemingly happened overnight. Is there some sort of anti-SLink conspiracy of which I am unaware?

[Modulated]

6 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

...I've noticed that most creators are no longer issuing products for SLink hands, feet, and bodies. Time was when being SLink-compatible was as de rigeur as being Maitreya-compatible is today. But this change seemingly happened overnight. Is there some sort of anti-SLink conspiracy of which I am unaware?

Seems to have lost popularity over the last couple of years, which is disappointing. It's one of the best made bodies IMO.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

No idea about hands, but a good portion of my wardrobe contains Slink fits, especially shoes.

I don't shop non-discount events, though, so I can't say if that'll be true of brand new releases. I just know my inventory has a ton of Slink in there, and I use the Slink fit shoes on my male avatars. Never had an issue finding shoes for them if needed.

[Modulated]

Just now, Ayashe Ninetails said:

No idea about hands, but a good portion of my wardrobe contains Slink fits, especially shoes.

I don't shop non-discount events, though, so I can't say if that'll be true of brand new releases. I just know my inventory has a ton of Slink in there, and I use the Slink fit shoes on my male avatars. Never had an issue finding shoes for them if needed.

New releases are practically non-existent for SLink that I have seen.  There is still a lot of content for them, don't get me wrong but newer items are not being offered much if at all for them.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

19 minutes ago, Modulated said:

New releases are practically non-existent for SLink that I have seen.  There is still a lot of content for them, don't get me wrong but newer items are not being offered much if at all for them.

Yeah, that's what I figured. Still, if you run an avatar through most actual stores (not events), you should be able to find some nice things, so there's that at least.

Lemme see here...lemme rummage, one sec...

Okay, here's a random list *clothes go flying everywhere* - Blueberry, Addams, Kaithleen's, Tachinni (older items), Vision, Valentina E, Seniha, Ascend, Vinyl, Bumbleebee, Tetra, LeiMotiv... 

I see mostly Hourglass sizes in here, but sometimes Slink O or Physique. 

They won't be new outfits of course, but they certainly don't look old. This is all stuff I rock on a regular basis. You could easily mix and match your way into something chic.

Going forward, yeah, Slink will likely get phased out as items are gradually removed from stores to make room for new stuffs. Just the nature of having 29348293849234 bodies on the market I suppose. 😩

Edited November 23, 2022 by Ayashe Ninetails
Added infos

[Rowan Amore]

Slink released the Cinnamon/Chia body which went absolutely nowhere.   Slink hands, at least the ones I used to use, were kind of a pain .   They were great when there WERE no mesh bodies to choose from.  Every other body that was released had their own hands and those upgraded to bento so there was no need to buy slink hands anymore.  

[Bree Giffen]

I see new slink supported clothing once in a while as I check events. I recall deleting several slink demos  as I cleaned up my inventory after a recent demo try out.

[Stephanie Misfit]

This is the Flickr group to check out if you are looking for new stuff for the Slink bodies. It is updated regularly.

https://www.flickr.com/groups/slinkyenhancements/pool/

 

[Maryanne Solo]

Ahem ^^......
Slinking "Physiquely" to be precise. 🥰
The original and still the best.
Would anyone care to tell me what newage body is better please? 🙄🤔
 

[Lindal Kidd]

6 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

They were great when there WERE no mesh bodies to choose from.  Every other body that was released had their own hands and those upgraded to bento so there was no need to buy slink hands anymore.

The hands and feet were what I was mainly concerned about, since I have a ton of shoes and manicures for them, and indeed they were the only mesh items I wore for a LONG time. But what Rowan says here is what I think has happened. With nice Bento enabled hands and feet on every mesh body now, there's no market for separate appendages.

Logical, but too bad. End of an era, and all that.

[Stephanie Misfit]

2 hours ago, Maryanne Solo said:

Ahem ^^......
Slinking "Physiquely" to be precise. 🥰
The original and still the best.
Would anyone care to tell me what newage body is better please? 🙄🤔
 

I agree, it is a really nice body. And there's definitely new clothing for it if you look. Just never anything in my style (though the same can be said for other bodies, too, that you can only find a couple of styles of fashion for).

[Blaise Glendevon]

9 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

...I've noticed that most creators are no longer issuing products for SLink hands, feet, and bodies. Time was when being SLink-compatible was as de rigeur as being Maitreya-compatible is today. But this change seemingly happened overnight. Is there some sort of anti-SLink conspiracy of which I am unaware?

Slink Physique lost users when Maitreya was released. And Hourglass lost users when the newer, somewhat more proportional curvy bodies launched.

Also Slink Redux, the BOM update that had no alpha hud flopped really hard. They had to re-release with a seperate updated body with an alpha hud. Subsequently, Cinnamon and Chai, the new Slink body flopped even harder. 

Shame. Of all the hands and feet I've tried in SL, I still like Slink best. I still wear them with my Maitreya body occasionally. 

[Marianne Little]

It has not happened suddenly, but over years.

Both Slink and Physique was released the same year, Slink in Spring and Maitreya just on the end of the year. 

I have had 2 alts with Slink, and I still has, so I have seen the brand support going down. My female alt had Physique until it became almost impossible to shop for her, them she changed to Hourglass and that went well many years. Now Hourglass is starting to drop too. But it is easier with Hourglass.

Shoes and boots has Slink sizes still. Not 100% of the releases as it used to be, but many.

The upgrade to Redux did not go well, I didn't have time to find alpha layers for them.

And the male alt is even harder to find new releases for. In weekend sales, it is rare to find Slink male. Lapointe & Bastchild is one of the stores that still rig for it.

[Teagan Tobias]

Shoes are one item I buy all the time, and all of them are Slink compatible, and I still see them being sold.

Well before my mesh body I used several third party feet that used Slink shoes so my inventory of shoes is extensive and many years old.

At this point I am so locked into clothing for Tonic Fine, with compatible feet for Slink, that if nothing is ever sold for them ever again I would be forced to live out of my inventory, with almost 100K geared to one body, changing is not an option, ever.

And so far I still manage to spend most of my Second Life allowance on clothing with no problem at all.

[Nalates Urriah]

It appears Slink has definitely lost popularity among the forum crowd. It seems reasonable to extend that thought to the whole of SL. However, like most things in SL it is very hard to know what is actually happening across all of SL. Even the Lindens have problems figuring out what we are doing. But it does appear Slink is losing market share.

One can know what they see. But no one sees all of SL. Thus the problem. Add to that the fact that few of us put effort into quantifying what is actually happening and the result is we decide based on opinion not facts. So in one's circle of creatives it is likely true they are shifting away from Slink and that is all one really needs to consider.

Several of the new bodies are way popular. But there are creatives still making Slink Original and Hourglass. It is hard to say of the number of creatives is decreasing or just changing.

Oh, by the way... Slink Physique is the old body with the alpha cuts HUD. Physique comes in Original and Hourglass. Slink Redux is the newer BOM body without alpha cuts and comes in Original and Hourglass versions. Clothes made for Physique fit Redux. Clothes for Original will NOT fit Hourglass and the other way around. Most people are confused about Slink naming, which says something about us.

I collect the names of shops that offer Slink clothes; 2LOVE, Alienation, Allure Couture, ALTER  ..:: ALTER ::.., Baiastice, ErotiK, Floyd Shop, GGVG, LC Fashion, LUaR, Mely Melo, MOW, Next Door Designs, Nyssa , Pink Love, Pixel Doll, S&A Taylor Designs, S&B aka SLC, Sands Design, Serina Lacave Collection, TO.KISKI, Uni-qu3, Vannies, Yo Unique, Zoom  (= ~29 shops)

That is not an All-Inclusive list. Addams supports Slink and I just didn't get around to adding them. I add a shop to my list when I buy something from them. Plus there are some that I omit because I didn't like their work, fit was poor or there was some other problem with their stuff.

The Cinnamon & Chai bodies, and the other Slink bodies, are excellent technical achievements. All other bodies are less technically. C&C is the next step in body evolution within SL. EVO made the first step in this evolving direction that steps away from the old UVMaps. But the technical expertise/ability in SL appears to be declining. People mess up with EVO all the time and like, "Wow... that didn't work." We are STILL explaining BOM.

So... Slink, the most well made, may disappear. But that is typical of SL. Most of us are not really interested in the tech side and thus are blindly complaining about performance without understanding how we are impacting performance.

[Nick0678]

Slink still exists? WTF i thought it would be gone by now with so many mesh body brands in the market

[Qie Niangao]

For guys, it's been several years since Slink was commonly supported by clothing creators. The BOM-only Redux version, dependent on alpha masks, was so much better than the old alpha-cuts by HUD, but so much more difficult for the average user. (Well, "more difficult" for very simple uses of Outfits, and for a certain tolerance for discovering hunks of avatar have been missing since the last clothing change.) It may have been coincidental, but the timing of the (vastly inferior) Legacy products pretty much wiped out Slink for guys.

I also think Slink missed a chance to make everything modifiable at the same time as it went BOM. It's kind of late now that Belleza has mod perm, and new bodies such as CZ starting out mod from the start. (As it happens, the "CZ Slim" look is one that Slink used to have exclusively, but that's another gamble on clothing support, at least for now.)

[Lindal Kidd]

1 hour ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Slink, the most well made, may disappear. But that is typical of SL. Most of us are not really interested in the tech side and thus are blindly complaining about performance without understanding how we are impacting performance.

I bought the Redux bodies based at least in part on your recommendation of them as low lag. They're very nicely modeled, and I love that my SLink nail appliers and shoes work with them.

But I found that sorting through a ton of different alpha masks to find a set that work with the clothes I want to wear is very time consuming and frustrating. I found myself going back to my Maitreya body. It may be a lag monster, but it's easy to use.

[Maryanne Solo]

Slink Physique + tech head me, a match made in heaven.
 🥰

[Scylla Rhiadra]

On 11/24/2022 at 10:58 AM, Lindal Kidd said:

I found that sorting through a ton of different alpha masks to find a set that work with the clothes I want to wear is very time consuming and frustrating. I found myself going back to my Maitreya body. It may be a lag monster, but it's easy to use.

Unfortunately, this. Slink, and Physique in particular, was on the way out before the introduction of BOM, but Slink's approach to handling the new system certainly hastened it. Slink seems to have been under the impression that clothing makers would start to include alphas with their clothing, and that didn't happen (until Kupra became popular, anyway).

And what's so annoying about it is that Slink was taking the right approach to this. They were badly let down by creators, and outflanked by Maitreya.

It's a shame. It's a really nice body.

[Nalates Urriah]

On 11/24/2022 at 7:58 AM, Lindal Kidd said:

I bought the Redux bodies based at least in part on your recommendation of them as low lag. They're very nicely modeled, and I love that my SLink nail appliers and shoes work with them.

But I found that sorting through a ton of different alpha masks to find a set that work with the clothes I want to wear is very time consuming and frustrating. I found myself going back to my Maitreya body. It may be a lag monster, but it's easy to use.

Sorting through masks... and below...

20 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Unfortunately, this. Slink, and Physique in particular, was on the way out before the introduction of BOM, but Slink's approach to handling the new system certainly hastened it. Slink seems to have been under the impression that clothing makers would start to include alphas with their clothing, and that didn't happen (until Kupra became popular, anyway).

And what's so annoying about it is that Slink was taking the right approach to this. They were badly let down by creators, and outflanked by Maitreya.

It's a shame. It's a really nice body.

I think Slink remained popular until Maitreya began competing.

The way Slink incorporated BOM is the way the Lab designed the original clothing system for the Classic avatar. It was the simplest and most versatile way to handle hiding parts of the avatar. It was during the two years of pre-BOM mesh bodies and appliers that confused the process. The use of alpha-cuts controlled by a HUD departed from the original intent and way of doing things. It added render cost, greatly complicated body design, added the need for a HUD and a ton of scripts, people had to learn about appliers, and it was ridged. Clothes makers had to conform to the body's alpha-cuts and it was use the cuts or forget it. During this time I remember not buying clothing items because they did not work with the alpha-cuts. And there was no way for the typical user to make alphas that worked with an applier body.

When Redux came out it used the Lab's original alpha layer process and drastically reduce render cost and script load. Which is what the Lindens planned on being the point of BOM. The Slink bodies remained the same appearance-wise. The tech changed.

In the two years of the applier era, designers stopped making alpha layers. Understandable. They weren't needed. With the release of BOM I thought they would start including alphas for the new clothes. A few do. I don't understand why not. But that they haven't has without a doubt hit Slink hard. That designers didn't include alphas confused the new people that came in during the applier era and were ignorant of original way if doing things. They considered it simple to click a cut  in a HUD and move on.

I thought getting out the HUD, finding the right cuts to enable/disable, then making an Auto-Alpha (which didn't always work right) or making a copy of the body with the cuts set to save as part of that outfit was WAY more complicated and tedious. Adding the alpha that came with the dress was way simpler. But if I had to make an alpha... I was bask into the mess. So I very carefully check the demos.

Lindal is right about the hassle of sorting through alpha-masks to find the right one. No fun. I've done some serious organizing to reduce the tedium. Keyword being "reduce."

I've had to make many masks. Fortunately I learned long ago and have developed a system for making new ones now. But it still takes me 10 or 15 minutes. So... if a demo shows I'll need a mask, I likely won't buy the item.

[Persephone Emerald]

On 11/23/2022 at 8:56 AM, Ayashe Ninetails said:

 

Okay, here's a random list *clothes go flying everywhere* - Blueberry, Addams, Kaithleen's, Tachinni (older items), Vision, Valentina E, Seniha, Ascend, Vinyl, Bumbleebee, Tetra, LeiMotiv... 

I see mostly Hourglass sizes in here, but sometimes Slink O or Physique. 

They won't be new outfits of course, but they certainly don't look old. This is all stuff I rock on a regular basis. You could easily mix and match your way into something chic.

 

 

On 11/24/2022 at 6:47 AM, Nalates Urriah said:

 

I collect the names of shops that offer Slink clothes; 2LOVE, Alienation, Allure Couture, ALTER  ..:: ALTER ::.., Baiastice, ErotiK, Floyd Shop, GGVG, LC Fashion, LUaR, Mely Melo, MOW, Next Door Designs, Nyssa  S&A Taylor Designs, S&B aka SLC, Sands Design, Serina Lacave Collection, TO.KISKI, Uni-qu3, Vannies, Yo Unique, Zoom  (= ~29 shops)

That is not an All-Inclusive list. Addams supports Slink and I just didn't get around to adding them. I add a shop to my list when I buy something from them. Plus there are some that I omit because I didn't like their work, fit was poor or there was some other problem with their stuff.

 

Most of these stores listed above also make clothes for Belleza Freya. Some few of them have older clothes that fit Isis. Because I personally like these 2 bodies, I'm invested in them being popular with other users and creators. I think Slink offers good body shapes with their athletic or Physique shape and with their Hourglass shape, so I'd like to see them being popular too, though I doubt they will be. One thing they did right is to make the newer versions of their bodies compatible with the older clothing sizes. It's too bad Belleza failed to do this with their new GenX bodies. The less curvy one is almost the same shape as Freya, but not close enough to wear clothing made for Freya. Why? If  a user already has clothing for a body they like, most don't want to have to buy a whole new wardrobe just to fit the sparkly new body. What possible reason could there be for changing the shape just a little, when the shape they already had was lovely. It's not like it had weird shoulders or badly sized anything. The only problem I have with Freya is that it doesn't fit necklaces made for Maitreya Lara or system avatars very well.

[Gabriele Graves]

On 11/25/2022 at 5:18 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And what's so annoying about it is that Slink was taking the right approach to this. They were badly let down by creators, and outflanked by Maitreya.

A different perspective is that the right approach is the one that wins out.

It really doesn't matter if we personally don't like it and I know there are things I don't like but nevertheless have won.  This has happened for a number of other things besides alpha cuts despite there being a "right" way intended by LL  (really are we that surprised?).

A few examples of things not done the way LL intended:

• Skins which aren't an all in one skin asset but instead mostly tattoos now.
  Not even using the new universal asset as intended by LL when BoM was introduced.
• Post-BoM Appliers.  HD appliers dominate for head makeup despite BoM.
• An new emerging de-facto standard for head uv maps (Evo X) to replace the SLUV.
  It's not the fact that a new uv map is being used that is significant because alternative uv maps have been made before.
  It's the fact that it is becoming a new de-facto standard that is significant.
• Even mesh body parts.  Even today the only general purpose body/head that LL provides is the system one.

I'm sure there are more.  So I think facts bear out that the "right" LL way isn't always the successful way in the end.
LL have been led by creators to the new avatar customisation technologies that won, not the other way around.

I'll even be so bold to suggest that if the creators had only stuck to the "right" LL way, user retention may have been far worse.

Finally, Maitreya stayed on top because they didn't remove the features in their quest for "the right LL way" that many of their users still wanted whilst still making improvements.  It's that simple.
 

[Nalates Urriah]

21 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

A different perspective is that the right approach is the one that wins out.

It really doesn't matter if we personally don't like it and I know there are things I don't like but nevertheless have won.  This has happened for a number of other things besides alpha cuts despite there being a "right" way intended by LL  (really are we that surprised?).

A few examples of things not done the way LL intended:

• Skins which aren't an all in one skin asset but instead mostly tattoos now.
  Not even using the new universal asset as intended by LL when BoM was introduced.
• Post-BoM Appliers.  HD appliers dominate for head makeup despite BoM.
• An new emerging de-facto standard for head uv maps (Evo X) to replace the SLUV.
  It's not the fact that a new uv map is being used that is significant because alternative uv maps have been made before.
  It's the fact that it is becoming a new de-facto standard that is significant.
• Even mesh body parts.  Even today the only general purpose body/head that LL provides is the system one.

I'm sure there are more.  So I think facts bear out that the "right" LL way isn't always the successful way in the end.
LL have been led by creators to the new avatar customisation technologies that won, not the other way around.

I'll even be so bold to suggest that if the creators had only stuck to the "right" LL way, user retention may have been far worse.

Finally, Maitreya stayed on top because they didn't remove the features in their quest for "the right LL way" that many of their users still wanted whilst still making improvements.  It's that simple.
 

When discussing right and wrong we usually fail to define what we mean. Spock's saying that grew into a pop culture quot, The good of the meany versus the few... is one way. But the idea defeats the philosophy of individual freedom and diversity. Sort of a worker bee versus a DC Comics hero thing.

The Lab's engineers focus on technical excellence. So we can often define good as things that improve performance. There is also a factor of popular acceptance and preference. If more people like or want something then providing it, even with some loss of performance, will likely make SL more attractive to more people and that insures the continuation of SL, which while debatable I consider a good thing.

But if you can not explain a GOOD THING to people and they cannot understand it... what good is it? And does it lose its goodness? Do people actually decide what is good or bad? Can people's opinions actually change what IS good or bad? Or should they be saying "like" or "dislike"?

I think Gabriele's wording mistakes what is "technically performative"(the Lab's design)  versus "what people LIKE" as right and wrong ways of doing things. I don't see it as a Good/right versus Bad/wrong thing.

So as SL is developed I expect opinion from the users and technical evaluation from the Lab to continue to shape SL.

Sadly for me, that seems to mean Slink's technically excellent C&C body is going to be ignored by users.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, Nalates Urriah said:

I think Gabriele's wording mistakes what is "technically performative"(the Lab's design)  versus "what people LIKE" as right and wrong ways of doing things. I don't see it as a Good/right versus Bad/wrong thing.

The wording I used was from Scylla's post, I cannot claim it as my own.

However, a person can semantically try to define their way around any opposing point of view and try claim mistakes on the part of another but in the end that's just playing word games and shenanigans.

What's actually important here is not semantics but what solution wins out.

History is replete with technically excellent things that failed vs. supposedly less excellent ones.  For example: VHS vs BetaMax.  In the end being technically excellent isn't the most important thing.  The market chooses for a variety of reasons of which the technical excellence is but one facet of it.

BTW I'm glad you finally admit that masks are a pain.  I don't find my alpha HUD a pain after all these years.  Click, click, click and I'm done for pretty much everything.

On 11/26/2022 at 2:48 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

I thought getting out the HUD, finding the right cuts to enable/disable, then making an Auto-Alpha (which didn't always work right) or making a copy of the body with the cuts set to save as part of that outfit was WAY more complicated and tedious. Adding the alpha that came with the dress was way simpler. But if I had to make an alpha... I was bask into the mess. So I very carefully check the demos.

Lindal is right about the hassle of sorting through alpha-masks to find the right one. No fun. I've done some serious organizing to reduce the tedium. Keyword being "reduce."

I've had to make many masks. Fortunately I learned long ago and have developed a system for making new ones now. But it still takes me 10 or 15 minutes. So... if a demo shows I'll need a mask, I likely won't buy the item.