Yes, another post about computers able to handle Second Life...

[Jaylinbridges]

I turn off ALM not because of it's slight lowering of my frame rate (30% loss at most), but because it maxes out my GPU to 99%, causes the GPU fans to whine away at max noise trying to keep the GPU temp in limits.  No reason to add noise and shorten the life of my video card just to see reflections on a overly waxed auto.   My cars are all muddy, and they have no shine.  Why spend more in electric bills for shiny mud?

 

[blissfulbreeze]

9 hours ago, MoiraKathleen said:

I'm not sure what the age of the user has to do with whether they have a gaming computer or computer that can handle ALM all the time.  I'm well past 40 and have both a gaming PC and a gaming laptop, both of which I purchased specifically for SL after I started spending a lot of time in SL.   I run all the time with ALM on.

You're not the norm though. I am not saying ALL are 40+.

[JeromFranzic]

On 11/17/2022 at 5:14 PM, Jaylinbridges said:

I turn off ALM not because of it's slight lowering of my frame rate (30% loss at most), but because it maxes out my GPU to 99%, causes the GPU fans to whine away at max noise trying to keep the GPU temp in limits.  No reason to add noise and shorten the life of my video card just to see reflections on a overly waxed auto.   My cars are all muddy, and they have no shine.  Why spend more in electric bills for shiny mud?

 

Really? At 99%?

I run a laptop with a GTX 1050 and 8th Gen i7 CPU. GPU hardly hits 50% unless I'm in a really busy or highly detailed sim, maybe 60-70%. Might be a driver issue at your end, I keep my drivers updated to the latest in Windows and Linux. I use the Game Ready Drivers in Windows, and Feature ones in Linux.

If anything the CPU for me takes more of a performance hit while in SL, not the GPU.

Edited November 22, 2022 by JeromFranzic

[Randy Pole]

That laptop runs Windows 11 S mode - that means it will simply not run any application you try to install from anywhere other that he Microsoft Store. The only way around that would be to buy a license for Windows 11 normal or pro on top of the laptop itself. So no - as it stands that laptop will not run Second Life because it is not available from the Microsoft Store.

[Jaylinbridges]

4 hours ago, JeromFranzic said:

Really? At 99%?

I run a laptop with a GTX 1050 and 8th Gen i7 CPU. GPU hardly hits 50% unless I'm in a really busy or highly detailed sim, maybe 60-70%. Might be a driver issue at your end, I keep my drivers updated to the latest in Windows and Linux. I use the Game Ready Drivers in Windows, and Feature ones in Linux.

If anything the CPU for me takes more of a performance hit while in SL, not the GPU.

Well I run what most call a potato computer (9 yr old technology on what was once a good mid range desktop gaming system that was overkill for SL) - and I still get 40 fps with the FS limiter on at 40 in most conditions (70 fps at home w/ no FS limiter).  I also run two accounts at the same time often (2 FS accts on separate monitors.  For $300 I could upgrade the video card to a mid range new NVIDIA card that would give me more memory and less of a hit running ALM.  Watching Black Friday deals.... $300 USD is not a trivial amount living on a fixed income with rents and energy costs increasing 15% every year.

My CPU is never maxed out, usually runs 25% for the 4 core average with the latest FS Release Candidate (6.6.8.68355)  But with ALM on my GPU goes to 99% for any kind of advanced scenery. and runs 50% with ALM off.  FPS are the same for ALM on and off because I limit to 40 fps.  With no fps limiting, no ALM  gives me 70 fps for the same scene.

CPU: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 965 Processor (3400.08 MHz)
Memory: 16384 MB
Concurrency: 4
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 SP1 64-bit (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 550 Ti/PCIe/SSE2 (EVGA)
Graphics Card Memory: 2048 MB

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 23.21.13.8813
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 388.13

Any later version of the Graphics driver gives me slower performance.  This driver was optimized for Win 7 and cards before the 1000 series.  Later drivers added features my card does not have, and fixed bugs my card never had.

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Rowan Amore]

On 11/18/2022 at 12:22 AM, blissfulbreeze said:

You're not the norm though. I am not saying ALL are 40+.

I'm over 50 yrs old on a gaming laptop.  All the people I know and talk to in SL.are.over 40 with killer rigs.  I'd say the norm.is.them NOT having up to date hardware.  We've worked hard for years to get what we want.

[Chic Aeon]

On 11/12/2022 at 9:51 PM, blissfulbreeze said:

Hi ! I am looking to buy a laptop so that I can be more mobile. I found this one. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/hp-17-3-laptop-intel-core-i5-8gb-memory-256gb-ssd/6499742.p?skuId=6499742

What I do in SL the most:

Exploring (I keep my draw distance at 32-72 most of the time)

Taking pictures ( I have no need for ultra graphics or ADL mode), just like to take basic ones with some post process editing.

Playing table games (Greedy, Skippo, etc)

I usually have most people as a jelly doll (complexity under 20k) and I just render them individually if I want to.

Yes, my settings are very low, because of lag that I get. This could be due to being in wifi (I will be able to hard connect with a laptop--it's upstairs).

So, with running SL with low settings, would this laptop meet my needs? Thank so much in advance for any advice, tips, etc. 😃

 

**If this laptop is not sufficient, can I add something to it to make it better for SL?

I have a MUCH more powerful computer than you are pointing to here. It is my backup notebook in case something happens to my desktop.  It "will" run SL on lowest graphics but fairly painfully and this is NOT in any busy place but on my own sims which are very fps friendly (128 at ground level with my desktop).   As it has been stated SL is a hog -- in part because of all the not well made user creator content that SL is well-known for  so hey - pluses and minus.  

 

When I joined fifteen years ago it was ALREADY that way. My friends and I joined at the same time. We were all in the computer web design business and already had powerful machines to deal with that. We all still needed to upgrade our graphics cards.  Best Buy currently has a return until Jan 14th or something like that going on. So read all that return stuff carefully and if you are OK with it then get the computer and SEE how it works. Keep in mind though that SL marches onward and so it will likely work LESS well in the future.  

 

I used to buy my computers for work (usually an upgrade every six months)  and usually at the top of the available heartiness of the time. Then I bought for both work and SL and now just for SL :D.  If you are going to stick around it is something to keep in mind.  You WILL need a new machine much more often than if you are only doing email and watching videos.   

 

Good luck.   BTW I just ordered a new notebook (same specs as the one with the now broken hinge that still works but --- (I LOVE that machine and hate to see it go. We bonded bigtime this last year.).   My new notebook was supposed to arrive today.   It is still sitting on the loading dock. So don't take their shipping time "guarantee" as truth.   Just saying.  

Edited November 22, 2022 by Chic Aeon

[Coffee Pancake]

I think the hardware advice simply needs to be that if BestBuy sell it, it's over priced garbage and maybe don't try to take it on SL.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Well I run what most call a potato computer (9 yr old technology on what was once a good mid range desktop gaming system that was overkill for SL) - and I still get 40 fps with the FS limiter on at 40 in most conditions (70 fps at home w/ no FS limiter).  I also run two accounts at the same time often (2 FS accts on separate monitors.  For $300 I could upgrade the video card to a mid range new NVIDIA card that would give me more memory and less of a hit running ALM.  Watching Black Friday deals.... $300 USD is not a trivial amount living on a fixed income with rents and energy costs increasing 15% every year.

My CPU is never maxed out, usually runs 25% for the 4 core average with the latest FS Release Candidate (6.6.8.68355)  But with ALM on my GPU goes to 99% for any kind of advanced scenery. and runs 50% with ALM off.  FPS are the same for ALM on and off because I limit to 40 fps.  With no fps limiting, no ALM  gives me 70 fps for the same scene.

CPU: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 965 Processor (3400.08 MHz)
Memory: 16384 MB
Concurrency: 4
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 SP1 64-bit (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 550 Ti/PCIe/SSE2 (EVGA)
Graphics Card Memory: 2048 MB

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 23.21.13.8813
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 388.13

Any later version of the Graphics driver gives me slower performance.  This driver was optimized for Win 7 and cards before the 1000 series.  Later drivers added features my card does not have, and fixed bugs my card never had.

 

Your system is running an unsupported version of Windows from SL and Nvidia point of view.  If you try to buy a series 30x0 or later Nvidia graphics card then you will find you need to have Windows 10 for the card to work.

[Jaylinbridges]

5 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Your system is running an unsupported version of Windows from SL and Nvidia point of view.  If you try to buy a series 30x0 or later Nvidia graphics card then you will find you need to have Windows 10 for the card to work.

I can boot to Windows 10 if I choose to, but have no reason to do so.  The card I am looking at still supports Win7 64 bit, according to EVGA, the manufacturer.  I don't need a 3000 series Nvidia card, or RTX.  When do you think SL will only work with ray tracing enabled video cards?

This is an end of life GTX card still being made and sold by EVGA.  It is an updated version that competes with the 2060's, with faster bandwidth than the older non super versions.

To move to an RTX 3000 series card I would need to rebuild my entire computer, estimated cost over $1000 USD.  Not going to happen anytime soon.

From EVGA website:

Compatibility of the EVGA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER SC ULTRA GAMING, 06G-P4-1068-KR, 6GB GDDR6, Dual Fan, Metal Backplate (06G-P4-1068-KR)

600-PL-2816-LR

EVGA PowerLink, Support ALL NVIDIA Founders Edition & ALL EVGA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti/2080/2070*/2060*/SUPER*/GTX 1660 Ti*/1660*/1650/1080 Ti/1080/1070 Ti/1070/1060

Operating System Support

Windows 10 64bit

Windows 7 64bit

Requirements

Minimum of a 450 Watt power supply.

One available 8-pin PCIe power dongle

Total Power Draw : 125 Watts

Product Warranty

This product comes with a 3 year warranty. Registration is recommended.

Price keeps going back up, was $199 on sale a month ago, is now $290.  EVGA sells it for $380 now and limit is 5 cards.  Best mid range card that will survive SL another few years, and still work with older technology.  When I replace my motherboard in the future the bus speed will be faster too and this card will use that. (Works with PCI Express 3.0 and lower, and I have PCI Express 2.0 bus in my 10 yr old MCI motherboard.)

https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-GeForce-Gaming-Backplate-06G-P4-1068-KR/dp/B07ZHZL2JB?th=1

https://www.antonline.com/Evga/Computers/Video_Cards/Graphic_Cards/1383049

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Gabriele Graves]

19 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I can boot to Windows 10 if I choose to, but have no reason to do so.  The card I am looking at still supports Win7 64 bit, according to EVGA, the manufacturer.  I don't need a 3000 series Nvidia card, or RTX.  When do you think SL will only work with ray tracing enabled video cards?

Perhaps things are different in the geographical region where you buy but where I am you cannot buy brand new Nvidia 1660 or 20x0 cards.  Generally once the new generation of cards is available the older ones are discounted and sold off quite quickly.  From that point only cards from the latest range are available and usually at roughly the same prices as the older cards, except when prices were hiked due to crypto-mining which seems to have abated now.

So when you said a new mid-ranged card, I thought that would be true for you too and you would have to get a new one from the 30x0 range.  It really wasn't about RTX at all.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[Jaylinbridges]

14 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Perhaps things are different in the geographical region where you buy but where I am you cannot buy brand new Nvidia 1660 or 20x0 cards

The new version of the Nvidia 1660 (released in 2019) was discounted, but is rising in price again.  I expect the supply is limited - but they are still available with limits from EVGA and Amazon online.  Any newer generation card is still more expensive if you want equal performance.  All the 3000 cards are RTX I believe, just extra hardware to me.  I don't play computer games at all - just need more VRAM and a cooler GPU for ALM if I am forced to use ALM in SL.

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Lyssa Greymoon]

10 hours ago, Randy Pole said:

That laptop runs Windows 11 S mode - that means it will simply not run any application you try to install from anywhere other that he Microsoft Store. The only way around that would be to buy a license for Windows 11 normal or pro on top of the laptop itself. So no - as it stands that laptop will not run Second Life because it is not available from the Microsoft Store.

You can switch out of S mode in Windows settings and there is no charge for it.

[Randy Pole]

2 hours ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

You can switch out of S mode in Windows settings and there is no charge for it.

You are right! Seems that MS decided to withdraw their upgrade fee. However even if the OP laptop gets "proper" windows 10 I suspect that SL with perform like an old stop motion movie. Slimline laptops are not a great idea for "gaming" despite what the ads may tell you.

[Carolyn Zapedzki]

On 11/22/2022 at 10:33 PM, Rowan Amore said:

I'm over 50 yrs old on a gaming laptop.  All the people I know and talk to in SL.are.over 40 with killer rigs.  I'd say the norm.is.them NOT having up to date hardware.  We've worked hard for years to get what we want.

60+ here with a gaming laptop and basic desktop gaming pc. I keep looking at more expensive desktop rigs, I will give in after Christmas maybe.  A far cry from the basic pentium processor and something like a gig or ram I started SL with, that was lag central!😦

[Kyrah Abattoir]

With the addition of PBR the forward renderer becomes problematic, simple because under physically based rendering, there is no such thing as a "diffuse" texture, it is replaced by "albedo", which represents the "true" color of surface and isn't meant to be shaded or with any kind of pre-lighting.

As a result, any texture designed for the new PBR system will look like hot garbage under forward rendering.

Diffuse <--- | ----> Albedo

 

[arton Rotaru]

13 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

With the addition of PBR the forward renderer becomes problematic, simple because under physically based rendering, there is no such thing as a "diffuse" texture, it is replaced by "albedo", which represents the "true" color of surface and isn't meant to be shaded or with any kind of pre-lighting.

As a result, any texture designed for the new PBR system will look like hot garbage under forward rendering.

Diffuse <--- | ----> Albedo

 

The forward renderer is already removed in the GLTF project viewer.

[Jackson Redstar]

without avtars, with a decent machine, you get great FPS. But who wants SL without people lol. Seriously though, Linden's next big push should be to figure how to make SL usuable when even 30 or avatars are together in an event. Maybe it is just impossible because they really dont have control over the avi body, head and clothing

[Candide LeMay]

The did improve avatar rendering performance quite a bit since last summer. I was at a music event with 58 avatars (ALM on, shadows off, no av impostors or av complexity limits) and still got ~25 FPS on my gaming rig. That would have been unheard of just a year ago.

[JeromFranzic]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:18 PM, Jackson Redstar said:

without avtars, with a decent machine, you get great FPS. But who wants SL without people lol. Seriously though, Linden's next big push should be to figure how to make SL usuable when even 30 or avatars are together in an event. Maybe it is just impossible because they really dont have control over the avi body, head and clothing

SL needs more NPCs... JK LOL, just something I see more of in Open Sim.

[sandi Mexicola]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:18 PM, Jackson Redstar said:

without avtars, with a decent machine, you get great FPS. But who wants SL without people lol. Seriously though, Linden's next big push should be to figure how to make SL usuable when even 30 or avatars are together in an event. Maybe it is just impossible because they really dont have control over the avi body, head and clothing

I figured out how to solve this!  Well, in Firestorm anyways: "Show Friends Only"!  (this works especially well when none of my friends are at the same event as me.  😁)

[Jackson Redstar]

9 hours ago, sandi Mexicola said:

I figured out how to solve this!  Well, in Firestorm anyways: "Show Friends Only"!  (this works especially well when none of my friends are at the same event as me.  😁)

Unfortunlately, I need to video events like weddings, so most couples prefer their guests to be present on video LOL, But really, there must be a solution for those with 'higher end" gaming systems to be able to use SL at more than 10fps in crowded areas. But oh well such is SL.....

[Coffee Pancake]

On 2/8/2023 at 6:38 AM, Jackson Redstar said:

Unfortunlately, I need to video events like weddings, so most couples prefer their guests to be present on video LOL, But really, there must be a solution for those with 'higher end" gaming systems to be able to use SL at more than 10fps in crowded areas. But oh well such is SL.....

No there isn't.

SL is single threaded. Modern CPU's aren't faster like a fighter jet, they are wider like a highway .. every iteration just adds more and more lanes.

A faster GPU and faster PCIe bus just means the viewer spends fractionally less time waiting for the graphics card before getting back to doing 70 in one lane. Maybe you get a top of the line flagship CPU .. and it can do 75 .. in one lane.

PBR is a precursor to vulkan, which can leverage more CPU cores, but that would also require much of the viewers architecture to be changed to support massive parallel threaded loads .. which in all likely-hood just moves the bottle neck, till then there isn't much you can do aside from compositing and tricks in the edit.

[Arluelle]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:38 PM, Jackson Redstar said:

Unfortunlately, I need to video events like weddings, so most couples prefer their guests to be present on video LOL, But really, there must be a solution for those with 'higher end" gaming systems to be able to use SL at more than 10fps in crowded areas. But oh well such is SL.....

I'm on the "higher end" side, I've been on AMD for many years and switched to Intel just recently. Talking about recording events, OBS has an encoder setting for "QuickSync" which uses Intel's iGPU for encoding. I hadn't known about this feature at all and when testing this out, IT BLEW ME AWAY. I'm coming from encoding with NVENC on an RTX 4090 where you do notice a small performance impact. With QuickSync there is absolutely none, and you can record 4k 60FPS in great quality without problems.

Overall, going from a 5090X+4090 to a 13900KS+4090 has maybe given me the most noticeable performance uplift (subjectively) in recent years. I finally leave shadows on by default. It still starts struggling on 16FPS if you have 60 people in a club, shadows on and no imposters. I call this kinda acceptable (on the edge) but not flawless. With shadows off it's pretty smooth and flawless, though. What I've learned from this, though, is that clock speed can still matter a lot, and unless AMD comes up with an equivalent to QuickSync, there are good reasons for me to stay on Intel in the future.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Arluelle

[Jackson Redstar]

2 hours ago, Arluelle said:

60 people in a club, shadows on and no imposters.

one last thing though.. need to turn off the "dynamic rendering' (in FS anyways) when videoing a scene - this will prevent mesh objects from disappearing and suddenly reappearing as you are say, doing a zoom in shot. This of course forces the viewer to render everying within draw distance which can add alot to the FPS eating