LODs - A picture pretty much says it all

[Chic Aeon]

The mesh board is almost inactive these days. I can remember when there were dozens of post a day and some really stellar information shared.  

I am pretty much retired these days but hopped over to my building pad and saw some old things that I had out for a Christmas Event coming up soon.  I still do free and charity venues :D.   

I think this photo pretty much tells the story about LODs.  So to any new folks joining us and wanting to know about "best practices" in SL you get to decide for yourself and it seems like there are many different takes on what is best.  For ME, I like to be able to see things at a distance and still have very low land impact. It can be done and it isn't that difficult.  While it is great if you wan to make your own LODs I have rarely done so. I "can" but it is not my strong suit or what I am good at. What I do to compensate for letting the uploader do its thing -- is TEST. TEST TEST TEST :D.

 

Anyway here is the screenshot that got me to thinking about all this stuff tonight. 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

I don't believe there's really a "best way" to manually create LOD models, the ideal method will vary depending on the software & workflow that you're using as well as the type of asset you're making and its intended use.

It's the "intended use" part that makes creating content for SL tricky because while you can create a pair of shoes with the intent that people will wear them on their feet, you can't guarantee that someone won't try to scale one up so it's 40 meters tall and then try to build a house on top of it.  Not knowing how an asset will be used, at what scale, distance or angles it will be viewed, what other assets it will be used in conjunction with, etc. can make creating well-optimized and effective LOD models extremely difficult.

I actually quite enjoy creating LOD models (but then I also enjoy retopology and UV mapping so I may just be a masochist).  I tend to treat each project as a puzzle to be solved rather than following the same workflow every time I create something.  It gives me the opportunity to learn new techniques and tools while forcing me to really think about how I'm creating each asset and how to achieve the best results in terms of both aesthetics and performance, also my brain tends to stay more engaged and focused when not repeating a familiar process and an active mind means an active imagination. Most importantly, for me at least, I find that it makes creating a lot more fun if you get to experiment a little and try something different now and then.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Fluffy Sharkfin

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

but then I also enjoy retopology and UV mapping so I may just be a masochist

Yes, definitely!

[Chic Aeon]

18 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I don't believe there's really a "best way" to manually create LOD models, the ideal method will vary depending on the software & workflow that you're using as well as the type of asset you're making and its intended use.

It's the "intended use" part that makes creating content for SL tricky because while you can create a pair of shoes with the intent that people will wear them on their feet, you can't guarantee that someone won't try to scale one up so it's 40 meters tall and then try to build a house on top of it.  Not knowing how an asset will be used, at what scale, distance or angles it will be viewed, what other assets it will be used in conjunction with, etc. can make creating well-optimized and effective LOD models extremely difficult.

I actually quite enjoy creating LOD models (but then I also enjoy retopology and UV mapping so I may just be a masochist).  I tend to treat each project as a puzzle to be solved rather than following the same workflow every time I create something.  It gives me the opportunity to learn new techniques and tools while forcing me to really think about how I'm creating each asset and how to achieve the best results in terms of both aesthetics and performance, also my brain tends to stay more engaged and focused when not repeating a familiar process and an active mind means an active imagination. Most importantly, for me at least, I find that it makes creating a lot more fun if you get to experiment a little and try something different now and then.

Well I love making UVs -- second to creating textures (the old way) with nodes and sliders and  of course lighting.  I also like making physics models.   So we all like something different. I think Drongle (or something close to that) gets the prize for LOD master. That was over a decade ago.  

I agree that there are a variety of legitimate ways to make models and LODs for them . The problem that I see happening so much these days is creators (often well-known) buying RENDER models from the web and not bothering to retopo at all and seemingly just uploading at the default the uploader chooses resulting to horrid LODs and quickly disappearing mesh for anyone not in LOD 3 or 4.  Very sad.   Now and then one of those creators listens and "improves" (yes a objective view) their mesh.  And some simply try and cheat around things other ways.  So shopping really need to pay attention and many don't know how and so just crank their computers up to LOD4 and forget that others may not be seeing what they are seeing :D.   But alas, it is what it is.  I was actually surprised when I looked over from so far away. Gave myself a gold star and moved on LOL.   

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

9 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well I love making UVs -- second to creating textures (the old way) with nodes and sliders and  of course lighting.  I also like making physics models.   So we all like something different. I think Drongle (or something close to that) gets the prize for LOD master. That was over a decade ago.  

I agree that there are a variety of legitimate ways to make models and LODs for them . The problem that I see happening so much these days is creators (often well-known) buying RENDER models from the web and not bothering to retopo at all and seemingly just uploading at the default the uploader chooses resulting to horrid LODs and quickly disappearing mesh for anyone not in LOD 3 or 4.  Very sad.   Now and then one of those creators listens and "improves" (yes a objective view) their mesh.  And some simply try and cheat around things other ways.  So shopping really need to pay attention and many don't know how and so just crank their computers up to LOD4 and forget that others may not be seeing what they are seeing :D.   But alas, it is what it is.  I was actually surprised when I looked over from so far away. Gave myself a gold star and moved on LOL.   

I think an additional and seldom mentioned side-effect of the tendency to butcher LOD models in favour of lower land impact is that having lower land impact means you can rez more items simultaneously which in turn means you have more textures to load.  Sure it's great being able to rez 4 times as much stuff on your land, but when you consider that each of your neighbours is doing the same and realise that it all adds up to potentially hundreds or even thousands of extra textures in every region you have to question if cheating the LI restrictions is really such a good idea after all.

I'm very rigid in my determination to make proper LOD models whenever necessary but then, as previously mentioned, I enjoy the challenge of working out exactly how all the pieces of a model fit together so will happily spend time laying out my high LOD UVs so that when I come to make the low LOD I can just delete large groups of polygons and seamlessly replace them with a flat plane or two.  I'll also quite often start by creating the mid or even low LOD model and then create the higher LODs afterwards but as I said it depends a lot on the type of asset I'm working on.

I mostly use the default LL viewer and never change my LOD settings since I want to see how the things I'm creating look using the defaults, so I often see people wandering around bald and naked aside from some randomly placed triangles.

And yes your screenshot contains an impressive lack of random floating triangles, you deserve multiple gold stars!

*/me hands you a whole packet of gold stars with which to adorn yourself*

[Rick Nightingale]

Yep - no triangle messes - life is good. Have another star 🌟

I wouldn't say I enjoy making lower LOD models; it's just part of the process that I see it as essential for a good result. And I do enjoy the results. I've never seen an uploader-generated model of anything remotely complex that I couldn't both improve visually and reduce the LI of. I'm still learning... and have a long way to go.

I always start mesh builds at medium and then copy that set to start off the high and low models. A few parts (more complex shapes/lots of faces usually) in that I'll start at the higher detail before copying because I find it easier to then reduce it in medium, than to add topology for the high. Quite often my high LOD will be almost identical to medium but with added bevel modifiers and hardened normals. I know there are automatic tools in Blender to increase/reduce triangle count, but I almost always prefer to do it manually for the sort of things I make.

Like you say, it depends on the intended use, distance it's likely to be viewed from, etc.. I test builds at LOD 2 and try to get them so that there's indescernable changeover between the models at that. I shop at that setting too, even though I tend to run at LOD 4 on my land; I like a long view and not all of the stuff is mine with good LODs.

The ridiculous number of triangles in some models is an ever-present annoyance, from a number of sellers old and new. As is the instruction from them to set one's LOD at 4 or higher because of their useless lower LODs. I bought a plate of food off the MP; took a chance without a demo - a rare thing but it wasn't too expensive and looked just what I wanted. It was beautiful (stood next to it) but had a ridiculous 70k+ triangles in high LOD, obviously uploader generated lower models and the thing turned to a mess just outside the small room (at LOD 4!). Rather critical review left on that. Conversley, I've bought a lot from What Next (which I discovered recently) and their stuff is a tenth of the triangles and stays looking good until it's so far away I can't see it anyway. I contacted the maker there to say how impressed I was with that and their use of imposters.

I find imposters a great tool for some things. I made a hanging cage yesterday, and the lowest LOD is a photo of it. It's white, so can be tinted to match the colour of the bars. If anything, the issue was that the viewer showed the imposter better than I could see the low LOD before the switch. It was tricky getting the imposter not to pop out - did that by adjusting the mask value on the alpha. A bit too high and the viewer didn't bother to draw it at all, too low and the imposter was too 'much'. Got there in the end, lol. Making a functional gantry and winch for it now. Just wish we had PBR already - this would be perfect for it.

Everything I make is for me, but I'll often make it with a view to also selling it. Some of those I'll make multiple LOD versions. The cage has two versions, one as above and the second with both the low and lowest as the imposter. That saves another 1.2 LI, and more if someone made it bigger. At LOD setting 2 in the viewer, the second version still works nicely and if it's in a room (even a large dungeon like mine) it's fine. Outdoors, while the lower LI version still works well at LOD 2 (and better than any I looked at to buy, which is why I made it), I prefer the look of the higher LI version. Similarly, a gazebo I made has two LOD versions so people can choose.

I made some full perm bits a week ago and they were uploaded in three LOD versions, for optimising in LI and viewability depending on how big they are made. From cm to 20m+. All of them are 1 LI at 2m cube bounding box in size.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

On 11/12/2022 at 6:35 AM, Chic Aeon said:

The mesh board is almost inactive these days. I can remember when there were dozens of post a day and some really stellar information shared.  

I got bored of repeating the same things only to be ignored. Now I use that time to play videogames >_>.

[ChinRey]

Since Kyrah reopened this thread:

On 11/12/2022 at 6:35 AM, Chic Aeon said:

The mesh board is almost inactive these days. I can remember when there were dozens of post a day and some really stellar information shared.

For me the big change came when Patch had the nerve to accuse us all of not doing enything to help. Yes, I know he's an arrogant little self-centered, big mouthed bully who knows zilch about content creation but he is also LL's official voice in these matters and his message was clear: the volunteer work we were doing here to help inexperienced content creators and promote better building practices is worthless as far as LL is concerned.

I still try to respond if I have a quick and easy general solution to a something somebody is struggling with but I hardly ever spend hours and hours on Somebosy Else's Problem anymore. I have better and more rewarding things to do with my life.

[Mandy Carbenell]

4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Since Kyrah reopened this thread:

For me the big change came when Patch had the nerve to accuse us all of not doing enything to help. Yes, I know he's an arrogant little self-centered, big mouthed bully who knows zilch about content creation but he is also LL's official voice in these matters and his message was clear: the volunteer work we were doing here to help inexperienced content creators and promote better building practices is worthless as far as LL is concerned.

I still try to respond if I have a quick and easy general solution to a something somebody is struggling with but I hardly ever spend hours and hours on Somebosy Else's Problem anymore. I have better and more rewarding things to do with my life.

I have known Patch for quite a few years now, and he's anything like you stated. Let's keep this topic as is without flaming, shall we? Thank you.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Mandy Carbenell said:

I have known Patch for quite a few years now, and he's anything like you stated. Let's keep this topic as is without flaming, shall we? Thank you.

Maybe. I only know him from this forum and he may well show nicer sides of himself elsewhere.

But in any case, he once made it absolutely clear that he and LL did not appreciate or even aknowledge the vast amount of time and energy me and many other volunteers used to spend trying to help and advice other content creators and that makes it very hard to find the motivation to go on.

  

1 hour ago, Mandy Carbenell said:

Let's keep this topic as is without flaming, shall we? Thank you.

Why? As Kyrah said, it's really only about repeating what's already been said over and voer and over again. The people who really care, like Chic and RIck and Fluffy, probably need to vent their frustration every now and then and they certainly have the right to do so. But nothing will ever come of it because Linden Lab don't care and don't even seem to understand that this is an issue and without them on board there can't be anything but idle talk.

Edited January 1, 2023 by ChinRey

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

7 hours ago, ChinRey said:

the volunteer work we were doing here to help inexperienced content creators and promote better building practices is worthless as far as LL is concerned.

Well from a purely practical perspective I suppose they're probably at least partially right.  Given how few people actually use these forums you'd probably have a far wider impact on SL content creators if you spent your time creating tutorial videos and posting them on YouTube than you will providing free customer support here.

LL have always been very clear about how much value they place on creatives.  They created a product that relies entirely on 3D content but didn't even hire anyone with a creative background to provide input and then not only did they leave it up to their customers to create all the content for their virtual world for them, they also charge them for the privilege of volunteering to do so.  It's a pretty sweet deal for LL when you think about it, "the more of our world/platform/product you wish to create and maintain for us, the more money you must pay us" is quite the machiavellian business plan.

Given their track record over the last two decades it's difficult to muster much surprise anymore even when they voice their contempt publicly.

[ChinRey]

28 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

They created a product that relies entirely on 3D content but didn't even hire anyone with a creative background to provide input

...

That's not quite true. LL had some really good content creators in the beginning. Eric Linden is of course an SL legend and the other content Lindens did some marvelous work too. And they did teach the users. At another SL related forum somebody ocne told a story how he had been chided by Eric Linden for using a 1024 texture on a house. The early Moles too were - and still are - very good at what they're good at. You won't find many better scripters than Silent Mole or better texture artists than Crazy Mole and they're all excellent prim and sculpt builders.

But most important perhaps, they had developers and administrators like Cory and Ryan Linden who were also very skilled content creators and understood very well. The whole organisation was aware of the needs and requirements for good content creation.

The problem really only started with mesh. Just like us, the LDPW had to try to figure out this new thing from the incomplete, confusing, user-unfriendly and as often as not downright misleading documentation provided by developers with no real building skills or experience. But unlike us they never never really tried to untangle the mesh mess the developers had left us. Hyper Mole started but she didn't get very far before she sadly passed away and none of the others picked up where she left. Worse, they seem to believe they are the crème de la crème of SL mesh makers. Patch once said as much which is why I called him arrogant in my previous post. This means they see no need to improve their lackluster skills so they're stuck.

Now of course, the LDPW isn't doing anything to help or guide independent content creators, except of course for leading by (bad) example, but if the rest of LL are led to believe this is as good as it can possibly get, they see no point in investing resources on improvements.

But enough rant for now.

2 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Well from a purely practical perspective I suppose they're probably at least partially right.  Given how few people actually use these forums you'd probably have a far wider impact on SL content creators if you spent your time creating tutorial videos and posting them on YouTube than you will providing free customer support here.

It would be just as obscure on YouTube or at a small blog for that matter.

What is needed is systematic documentation officially approved, endorsed and promoted by Linden Lab. Probably financed by them too. Eoght years ago there would be no shortage of well qualified volunteers happy to spend their spare time on such a project but today, no. Kyrah and I have already explained why we don't spend as much time as we used to offering help here and I'm fairly confident we speak for many others. Developing and maintaining such an organized help resource for content creators would be a much bigger job and I can't imagine many would be willing to do it for free anymore.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

31 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

That's not quite true.

Okay perhaps I was being a little vague with my phrasing there but allow me to emphasize the point I was trying to make...

2 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

They created a product that relies entirely on 3D content but didn't even hire anyone with a creative background to provide input

and, as you yourself just pointed out, they did have many creative people who understood very well what was required to create good content and yet we ended up with

37 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

incomplete, confusing, user-unfriendly and as often as not downright misleading documentation provided by developers with no real building skills or experience.

which just goes to illustrate how little value LL places on creative input.

It's not my intention to bash any of LLs employees or imply that they lack talent, but to point out that if the resources that their talent and knowledge provides isn't utilized or even considered relevant when developing the platform then that just goes to further illustrate what LLs general attitude towards those in the creative field is and how much they value their contributions.

55 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

It would be just as obscure on YouTube or at a small blog for that matter.

I'm not so sure it would be.  I suspect that there are a lot more people searching YouTube for tutorials than there are visiting these forums for information or help.

I 100% agree with you on needing official documentation, along with a comprehensive list of best practices and a directory of recommended learning material (I'm not going to suggest LL try to create their own comprehensive library of tutorials for creating content for Second Life for reasons I've already expressed elsewhere).

[ChinRey]

35 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

which just goes to illustrate how little value LL places on creative input.

The developers are actually trying in their way. They replaced GLOD with MeshOptimizer in the mesh uploader recently. But you've seen the two tests I posted in this thread and you read Beq's reply so you know she's done much more extensive testing with similar results. But to sum it up, LL's developers have spent quite a bit of time and effort replacing one useless automatic LOD generator with another useless automatic LOD generator. A good content creator on the team wouldn't have helped much solving the problem but at least he or she could have saved them from wasting all that development time on a hopeless solution.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

The developers are actually trying in their way. They replaced GLOD with MeshOptimizer in the mesh uploader recently. But you've seen the two tests I posted in this thread and you read Beq's reply so you know she's done much more extensive testing with similar results. But to sum it up, LL's developers have spent quite a bit of time and effort replacing one useless automatic LOD generator with another useless automatic LOD generator. A good content creator on the team wouldn't have helped much solving the problem but at least he or she could have saved them from wasting all that development time on a hopeless solution.

Pretty much this, but yeah at least they're trying.  Until we get AI trained to do retopology and make LOD models there's not going to be any solution that produces results as efficient as doing it yourself so spending development time on features designed to encourage bad practices seems a little counterproductive.

For now I'll stick with Polygon Cruncher for those times when I'm too lazy to make my LOD models by hand.  The results you get when working with static organic models like rocks and trees are more than adequate (especially when combined with 3D Coats Autotopo tools), it has some nice little options for preserving UVs/edges, etc. and sliders that let you preview the decimation in real time and while it may not be free the time it's already saved me more than makes up for the price. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Fluffy Sharkfin

[Dema Fairport]

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