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1 minute ago, Rick Daylight said:

Well, I actually wore a transparent prim sphere on my head and it worked. Never thought of a hat... and I even have a hat folder in my inventory!

You could always click on your name tag, that should allow you to move the same way.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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I was going to post to that other, older thread, but it got confusing over there: it was mentioned by a poster who'd decided to include creators with merely tint HUDs but no-Mod permissions.

Anyway, I stumbled on a couple at the current The Warehouse Sale that I was surprised to find:

(I see that TURB was actually mentioned in that other thread, but specifically by the poster who was including tint HUDs, whereas these products are both real Mod perm.)

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12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Anyway, I stumbled on a couple at the current The Warehouse Sale that I was surprised to find:

  • TURB

TURB's creator doesn't even mind if people "grab his textures" , mod them and sell if they want to. As long as they don't re-sell his original textures. He had such note at his flickr pictures for each product, but it seems his account has been hit by the "flickr police" for not being a "pro", so they are gone, at least for now.

Edited by steeljane42
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On 11/7/2022 at 2:23 PM, Qie Niangao said:

I wondered about this. It hasn't been my (very limited) experience, but I certainly don't doubt there are cases where it's true, and for all I know it may be the majority (I don't buy that much full perm mesh, and would never sell any so I might not notice). But I can't concoct a reason the full-perm creator would care about their products being sold on with Mod permission—other than the "counterfeit superstition" which they of all people should recognize to be bunk, so that doesn't fit either.

 

It's not true. Most full perm creators don't want you to sell their wares "as is" in a pack distributing the item itself -- they want you to alter it and make it your own creation, then put it on "no transfer" or "no copy".

They usually don't insist that it has to be "no mod".

The exception is a script, which has to be put on "no mod" or it could be easily copied within the viewer.

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On 12/2/2022 at 2:55 PM, Rick Daylight said:

The store I got my outfit from was "Process of Elimination" on the MP. It's mostly sci-fi related products and everything I checked had mod perms. Also looks really well made:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/74556

 

Yep, one of my alts has that trenchcoat set and some sci-fi too. One of the few stores that had Slink male included in sizes. Slink male is dropped out of his sizes now... but it was nice as long as it lasted. Creators can't rig for every body here. But it is lots of other sizes, all chest versions for Maitreya, even the flat one.

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The only thing I can add to this is that if you make clothing with Full Bright and No Mod you are an ... well, IMO that's just silly.

Full bright clothing is worthless. Fullbright and No Mod = never buying from you again and I do feel as if you ripped me off because I can't wear it anywhere, ever.

I have been hit by this at least 4 times now by different creators and never once have I received so much as a reply to my request for either a Modifiable version (so I can turn off Full Bright) or at least one that isn't Full Bright. Stop making clothing Full bright!

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34 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

Yep, one of my alts has that trenchcoat set and some sci-fi too. One of the few stores that had Slink male included in sizes. Slink male is dropped out of his sizes now... but it was nice as long as it lasted. Creators can't rig for every body here. But it is lots of other sizes, all chest versions for Maitreya, even the flat one.

Creators are dropping slink because slink is closed. She left SL for personal RL reasons. 

 

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55 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Creators are dropping slink because slink is closed. She left SL for personal RL reasons. 

 

Creators have been dropping Slink for years. Feel free to browse recent years of releases by some popular/decent stores and see for yourself. As far as male clothing is concerned deadwool and cold ash (just as an examples of the very well known original male clothing stores) both dropped Slink around mid 2020.

Her leaving SL will/did just give an additional little push for the remaining few to drop it as well as there won't be any new customers that would need slink sized clothing, not there were many to begin with.

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Since the thread has bobbed up and reminded me, here are a few more examples of possible creator arrogance my wife and I have observed over the previous couple of months. Plus... I really think some creators are getting quite sloppy with rigging and alpha layers. Even some well known ones. Maybe it's the pressure of getting so many rigged versions out, maybe just lack of care.

1. Got a demo of some clothing from one of the current events that I was about to buy the fatpack of. I really liked it. Just before I removed the demo I noticed something as I looked around myself... daylight coming through a gap in the mesh where there shouldn't be a gap. The edges of two parts of the mesh stopped quite short of each other, not dependent on shape or anything like that, for a fair distance. Very obviously a mistake and an eye-catching one. I messaged the seller asking if it could be fixed because I really liked the item... at least I got a response, but it was "we don't consider that to be a significant flaw therefore we won't be fixing it". O..M..G! I was gutted - I rarely see clothes for myself that I really want. Can't blame rigging for lots of bodies either, it was only available for two or three.

2. A store card gift... tried to use it (actually two, both my wife and I) and it was rejected by Caspervend. It hadn't been configured properly (it was quite obvious). I messaged the seller, and got told it was my fault for not using the card properly, then accused of trying to use multiple cards when they were one-per-avatar (we knew that and hadn't swapped cards or anything). We gave up, but noticed other people saying their card didn't work either. Never heard anything more from the seller. Another store card with the same issue, but had to go to their store to use it... shopped for 20 minutes deciding what to buy, tried to use the card, failed, messaged seller, no reply.

3. Badly rigged items from different creators but similar faults: buttons and fasteners that don't move with the clothing so the button pops in and out of the cloth as you move. Messaged three sellers... one said they would try to fix it, one acknowledged the message but nothing more (for three months now) and one never bothered.

4. So many examples of just poorly fitting garments, some of which were so bad I wondered if they were even rigged for the body (I asked a couple... no reply). Some where the body's alpha left a big gap in the body past the garment... some where it left a huge, visible hole just inside it like the chest. Lots that clipped because they needed more alpha. Our shapes are very much not extreme, by the way, and some we tested on the default shapes to be sure. Did the creators even test their products before putting them up for sale??? A few said in an NC "use your body's HUD to hide parts if required"... yeah, like everywhere the mesh fits because it didn't fit at all and clipped like crazy. Even some of the better things we have improved on by making our own alpha layers, but there are still creators using v4 of the Lara autohide script, which cannot be changed, with no script removal and of course NO-MOD. Argghhh!

5. Household items that have terrible, uploader generated lower LODs which turn to mush or vanish half way across a room, yet have 10,000's of triangles in the High LOD model. Sold at high prices and with an instruction to set your viewer's LOD factor all the way up... in one case it was recommended to set it in the debug settings to 6 to 8 to "see my mesh how it's intended" - OMG!!! I really despair that some supposedly 'good' designers and well-known names are still doing this. To me, that really is arrogance and laziness.

6. Edit - my wife just reminded me: She bought an item two weeks ago on the MP. As she was trying to buy it the MP started malfunctioning and eventually went offline. When it came back, she accidentally clicked to buy the wrong item. There were two versions, the one she wanted simply had an extra script in it and was the same price. They are almost identical, the advert titles read the same because the end got truncated and it was a very easy mistake to make in the circumstances. There would be no harm in the seller sending her the other version or, and this is what she asked for, just the extra script to drop in (this item is mod perms). Two weeks, three messages, no reply. She was going to buy it for her alts too, guess she isn't going to now.

Oh well, at least all of this saved us (me, I'm the bread winner) a lot of money.

Edited by Rick Daylight
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6 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Creators are dropping slink because slink is closed. She left SL for personal RL reasons. 

 

I know, I have 10 or more posts in that thread. But Slink sizes, especially male...

5 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Creators have been dropping Slink for years. Feel free to browse recent years of releases by some popular/decent stores and see for yourself. As far as male clothing is concerned deadwool and cold ash (just as an examples of the very well known original male clothing stores) both dropped Slink around mid 2020.

Her leaving SL will/did just give an additional little push for the remaining few to drop it as well as there won't be any new customers that would need slink sized clothing, not there were many to begin with.

... disappeared long before that. P.O.E. was one store who held on to Slink Male a long time, and they dropped it in 2021/2022.

In 2022 they had no rigging for female Slink either. They rig for bodies I am not familiar with, so they are still in the niche market for bodies.

P.O.E. still rig for Kuroo, I thought that creator left SL also?

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6 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Creators have been dropping Slink for years. Feel free to browse recent years of releases by some popular/decent stores and see for yourself. As far as male clothing is concerned deadwool and cold ash (just as an examples of the very well known original male clothing stores) both dropped Slink around mid 2020.

Her leaving SL will/did just give an additional little push for the remaining few to drop it as well as there won't be any new customers that would need slink sized clothing, not there were many to begin with.

Where are you getting your facts from? There are tons of people inworld using the slink body. Did she hurt you in some way? you sound awfully bitter. 

41 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I know, I have 10 or more posts in that thread. But Slink sizes, especially male...

... disappeared long before that. P.O.E. was one store who held on to Slink Male a long time, and they dropped it in 2021/2022.

In 2022 they had no rigging for female Slink either. They rig for bodies I am not familiar with, so they are still in the niche market for bodies.

P.O.E. still rig for Kuroo, I thought that creator left SL also?

I'm not even going to touch male clothing.. 400K male clothing items on the MP.. over 2.7 million female.. If i cant find a full perm male mesh clothing item i like, i rarely buy any male clothing. Most FPM makers are still making for slink, both male and female. There are too many bodies to keep up with all of them.

I switched from Slink to Belleza Jake when i realized the slink feet didnt work with sliders. I mean, really? i wanted to make a huge orc and frankensteins creation for halloween, but not with teeny tiny feet.. 

Edited by Drake1 Nightfire
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3 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Where are you getting your facts from? There are tons of people inworld using the slink body. Did she hurt you in some way? you sound awfully bitter. 

Which facts? The lack of support by said big stores? Check their flickr, or check their mainstores and see for yourself. Most decent (i.e. not the template garbage) stores dropped it ages ago, with very very few remaining ones that will probably drop it now/soon after creator has left SL. Based on your further comment it seems like you buy FP, so yeah, you wouldn't know in this case. They (FP) still rig for totally not used bodies like Tonic too, because it's what they do, quantity over quality. But we all have our standards.

About the lack of popularity - Lucia Nightfire's system stats on worn mesh bodies the she collects for years. Here's the last sample, only top 20 to keep it short.

#1 : Maitreya - Lara : 141373 : 32.8%
#2 : Signature - Gianni : 31791 : 7.3%
#3 : Belleza - Jake : 23877 : 5.5%
#4 : MeshBody - Legacy (Female) : 21728 : 5.0%
#5 : MeshBody - Classic (Female) : 15548 : 3.6%
#6 : eBODY - Reborn : 15253 : 3.5%
#7 : Inithium - Kupra : 13770 : 3.1%
#8 : MeshBody - Legacy (Athletic Male) : 13289 : 3.0%
#9 : MeshBody - Legacy (Male) : 12271 : 2.8%
#10 : LucyBody - Atenea : 10678 : 2.4%
#11 : MeshBody - Classic (Male) : 9696 : 2.2%
#12 : MeshBody - Legacy Perky : 8398 : 1.9%
#13 : Niramyth - Aesthetic Mesh Body : 7319 : 1.6%
#14 : Belleza - Freya : 7162 : 1.6%
#15 : Utilizator - Kemono : 4960 : 1.1%
#16 : Sweet's - Ruth : 4683 : 1.0%
#17 : Slink - Male : 4667 : 1.0%
#18 : eBODY - Curvy : 4667 : 1.0%
#19 : Slink - Hourglass : 4128 : 0.9%
#20 : Signature - Geralt : 3152 : 0.7%

Most importantly they also did show either no growth or a negative trend for a long while already (there's way more stats, feel free to check Lucia's profile to get them yourself, much easier that way than posting walls of text on the forums) even before creator has left SL. Non template creators in most cases do not have time to rig for more than just the top few bodies, so Slink have been out of the picture for ages. Female one even longer.

And no, not bitter at all, I just happen to enjoy stats and facts. That said I do consider Slink bodies to be pretty bad looking, always have, even when there weren't as big choice as we have now.

---

Some topic related stuff now since I'm posting anyway.

Few more negative experiences with creators this year already, like Rick's post above or very close.

1. Got a fancy interactive thing to play with (it had no demo since it's not rigged). Mostly happy with it, it works and does what it supposed to do, but lacks one basic function - being able to cycle through the animations easily. Dropped a creator's CSR notecard - nothing, dropped creator the same notecard after a week - nothing again. Not sure I'd buy something there again at the full price at least.

2. Missing Legacy size in the box of one outfit that should have had it (demo did). Creator (no CSR there, sent her an IM as it's the way she wants to be contacted) instead of checking  told me to get a redelivery after 3 days. I did - same thing. Another IM - she told be to double check the folder this time... obviously it wasn't there. I even did try to wear other sizes in case of the naming mistake (had this with some clothing before when there were two of the same body sizes, while one of them actually wasn't for that body). After 3rd time she finally got around to check it and I've got an auto-redelivery with all sizes included. No reply back with even basic "Thank you for letting me know.".

3. Issue with the texture on one decor item I wanted to buy from a rather large/well know store. Rather noticeable in my opinion, so I dropped creator a notecard with the information and the screenshot of an issue. Fast answer in this case, less than a day, but he said "it's fine, I'm not gonna redo the texture.". I did not buy it, of course.

One positive experience, though.

Found an issue with one dress' demo. Some of its faces got all messy texture after using the HUD. I wasn't sure if it's just a demo or the full version too, but decided to send creator a message first. She fixed it within a day and even sent me a fatpack of that dress along with a nice message.

Edited by steeljane42
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1 hour ago, steeljane42 said:

That said I do consider Slink bodies to be pretty bad looking, always have, even when there weren't as big choice as we have now.

Everybody gets an opinion, but as I recall Slink was once by far the most realistic male body. There was the Niramyth caricature, and the unusable TMP kludge and that was it. Then Gianni and Jake were good enough to give Slink real competition for some plausible body shapes. Then eventually Legacy, despite its prohibitive polygon count and inscrutable HUD, subsidized enough creator content to truly erode Slink's market share.

But really, it was trying to do BOM with alpha masks like the good ol' days that simply did in Slink. Technically, it was the "right" thing to do, but folks were accustomed to clicking those alpha slices, and the market wouldn't bear it.

Since Legacy, nothing has really caught on with males. I'd guess it's because of how hard it is to amass clothing creator buy-in. I'm seeing some good creators supporting CZ Slim now, perhaps because it fills a niche that Slink served before. But looking at the list, really, Gianni and Jake being #2 and #3 tells a lot. There just aren't that many male bodies in the running, and I certainly agree with the larger point: Slink male hasn't been in the running for a while, and my Slink-based outfits are pretty much mothballed now. Even if I wanted to wear those old mesh clothes, I wouldn't know where to start finding a Slink-compatible body skin to match an EvoX face skin now.

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47 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Everybody gets an opinion, but as I recall Slink was once by far the most realistic male body. There was the Niramyth caricature, and the unusable TMP kludge and that was it. Then Gianni and Jake were good enough to give Slink real competition for some plausible body shapes. Then eventually Legacy, despite its prohibitive polygon count and inscrutable HUD, subsidized enough creator content to truly erode Slink's market share.

But really, it was trying to do BOM with alpha masks like the good ol' days that simply did in Slink. Technically, it was the "right" thing to do, but folks were accustomed to clicking those alpha slices, and the market wouldn't bear it.

Since Legacy, nothing has really caught on with males. I'd guess it's because of how hard it is to amass clothing creator buy-in. I'm seeing some good creators supporting CZ Slim now, perhaps because it fills a niche that Slink served before. But looking at the list, really, Gianni and Jake being #2 and #3 tells a lot. There just aren't that many male bodies in the running, and I certainly agree with the larger point: Slink male hasn't been in the running for a while, and my Slink-based outfits are pretty much mothballed now. Even if I wanted to wear those old mesh clothes, I wouldn't know where to start finding a Slink-compatible body skin to match an EvoX face skin now.

Of course we all our opinions, and that's a good thing. Back in the days it did its job for guys for a while, because like you've said the alternatives were either half broken TMP "deluxe" or that "aestethic" monstrosity (still see them around, sadly). But there always was something about slink bodies that was off in my opinion. Maybe the angularity (more noticeable on the female ones for obvious reasons) would be the one thing that I never liked on them.

And yeah, if Slink had some small chance to push the BoM only mode, it was only with the female bodies, and even that didn't really work out too well as we all know. Guys from my experience like, and often need, it super easy. Put on and forget, so while auto-alpha system has its fair share of issues on most bodies, it's still far from having to make own alphas. In the ideal world all creators would start to include well made alpha layers to their clothing, but since it was Slink with already small userbase most didn't bother. Plus some outfits with asymmetric sleeves are just not possible that way, thanks to the standard UV.

It's pretty much even for the top 3 male bodies for a while now. I do consider Legacy M and Atheltic to be the same thing (so far I've seen 3 tops that didn't fit Athletic version around the arms, the rest seems to fit both versions all the same), so counting it as one. Gianni seems to slowing down with more creators stopping supporting it, but it's not too drastic yet. Both Jake and Legacy doing fine and get all the support they possibly can. If combine Legacy numbers it's a solid 2nd place for the male bodies, which is quite interesting considering that Jake has been on the pretty much permanent 50% sale for 1.5 years, while Legacy ones are 5k with just a few 50% off sales through the year (Black Friday and their Legacy Fairs).

There's Kario too, but it's out for more than a year and while not completely dead it's still not really supported and given the current numbers/trends, I don't see it changing much either.

Edited by steeljane42
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Kinda reminds me that I still have a top in my inventory that I'd wear the everloving crap out of it if it where mod because it's perfect for warcraft-elves, stylewise. It's a single Item only, and comes with a HUD that allows you to chose between 4 colours for the leather part, and 3 for the metal. But nothing matches with it. All I want is to be able to tint it ever so slightly. I contacted the creator a couple times - and I have been nothing but nice and I wait multiple months in between trying. Never got an answer, and I know that creator is still active.

In the end, I don't wear it, don't show it off in pictures, and certainly don't shop there for anything else to spare myself from being disapointed to be SO close to the perfect item, yet unable to reach it. Dunno, but from my point of view, everyone loses here.

I do understand that everyone has the right to decide what they do. I accept that. But so do I. I rarely buy no mod stuff - most of my avatars would be impossible otherwise.  And if mod rights come with fatpack only, I might get it on a sale. 

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I have an issue with creators who just don't bother replying to notecards, or IMs, or emails, or whatever their preferred method of communication is. I always get back to my customers, even if I can't help them with what their issue is. Sometimes customers do ask for stuff that you can't do, like free customisations just for them that would take ages. Not all customers have realistic expectations. But I think it is arrogant to completely ignore your customers, and quite a few creators do this. In the past couple of weeks, I have contacted 4 creators with questions or issues, and 3 have ignored me. 

The worst experience I had with a seller was an expensive purchase from an established merchant where half the items were missing. I tried multiple IMs, notecards, and email over a period of time. Got no response. It was never fixed in redelivery either, he just completely ignored the problem, and kept on selling the item and releasing new stuff in his store, too.

If you can't deal with customer service, outsource it, and if you don't want to do that, don't bother selling in SL. Customer service is part of the deal. 

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21 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

...that "aestethic" monstrosity (still see them around, sadly). ...

Stop that! It's my favourite body! 😛

At least once you turn some of the shape sliders down and tweak it... a lot. Then it looks almost as good as I did in RL when I used to be a full-on, psycho bodybuilder. My legs were better though.

The Aes head was plug ugly, I'll give you that, but thankfully at least Catwa made some to fit it.

The much bigger texture space on it for really detailed skin and materials (13 textures just on the body),  is great to work with. I mean, how many other bodies have a full texture panel just for the pelvis? I made a tattoo for my Aes bum that looks great; at the same size on SLUV it's just a little smudge .All that texture is a two-edged sword if you get a room full of them together but no worse than female mesh bodies before BOM. (And we won't talk about trying to get all those textures to actually line up on the body.)

Best thing about it though, of relevance to the thread and why I've done so much with it over the years is it's always had mod perms.

 

Edited by Rick Daylight
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I haven't watched this thread - last year or this year. And "I" have my items mod. 

 

But the point is very simple. Most creators that make their works no mod do so in order to keep folks from "bastardizing" their builds.  I have seen a few of mine "modded" and OMG it was ugly. They don't want their name associated with those kinds of ugly items. I get that. 

In the end they have a RIGHT to set permissions any way they want.  BUYERS have a right to not buy if they only want mod items. 

CAN WE LET THIS GO?????

 

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1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

But the point is very simple. Most creators that make their works no mod do so in order to keep folks from "bastardizing" their builds.  I have seen a few of mine "modded" and OMG it was ugly. They don't want their name associated with those kinds of ugly items. I get that. 

In the end they have a RIGHT to set permissions any way they want.  BUYERS have a right to not buy if they only want mod items. 

CAN WE LET THIS GO?????

 

Let me point out the lack of logic in such thinking by creators. If the item is mod, no reasonable person would assume the way it looks when they see it is the way the creator made it. If you see a Ford car with some weird paint job, do you assume that Ford produced it that way, or do you assume the it's been repainted?

Sure, we can let it go.

 

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1 hour ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

Let me point out the lack of logic in such thinking by creators. If the item is mod, no reasonable person would assume the way it looks when they see it is the way the creator made it. If you see a Ford car with some weird paint job, do you assume that Ford produced it that way, or do you assume the it's been repainted?

Sure, we can let it go.

 

Why wouldnt they assume its how the creator made it? Its not like they can see if it was tinted. 

 

To the basis of this thread.. I find it amusing that there are so many threads about this and they all say the creator is arrogant for making their items this way.  Is it not even more arrogant to demand a creator set THEIR perms to what you want? If you want mod rights, buy only items that give you that right. Coming here over and over making demands of merchants is the ultimate in arrogance. 

Hell, go buy the full perm packs and make your own. 

 

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