Come and get your Homesteads (P+ only, of course)

[Wulfie Reanimator]

5 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

"Congratuations, you can now give us $109+tax per month to get a region with quarter the prims and compute of a full region, without buying a full region."

"But only if you give us $250/year first."

What mentalist thought this was a good deal?

It costs only half of what you'd pay for a full region too, all expenses included.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Toothless Draegonne]

1 minute ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

It costs only 37% of what you'd pay for a full region, all expenses included.

Full region is $229+tax, 20k LI, full speed ahead.

Homestead is $109+tax, 5K LI, 5ms script cap, who knows what other caps.

Your math is wrong. Stop defending the dumb. All this shows is that homesteads could always have been sold on their own.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

Just now, Toothless Draegonne said:

Full region is $229+tax, 20k LI, full speed ahead.

Homestead is $109+tax, 5K LI, 5ms script cap, who knows what other caps.

Your math is wrong. Stop defending the dumb. All this shows is that homesteads could always have been sold on their own.

My math was wrong because I misread my own previous post: (Was looking at full + homestead, instead of just full region.)

On 11/5/2022 at 12:50 AM, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Without Premium Plus, it costs you $4554 to own a Homestead region for the first year.
Without Premium Plus, it costs you $3097 to own a Full region for the first year.
With Premium Plus, it costs you $1706 to own a Homestead region for the first year (and stipends cover the setup).

That benefit is nothing to scoff at, you literally can't get a sim for cheaper, even if we agree that region prices are still too expensive.

[LittleMe Jewell]

14 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

"Congratulations, you can now give us $109+tax per month to get a region with quarter the prims and compute of a full region, without buying a full region."

"But only if you give us $250/year first."

What mentalist thought this was a good deal?

Lots of folks think that giving LL $250 for all of the other various Premium Plus benefits is worth it.  For some of those folks getting a Homestead without having to have a full region first is a bonus.

Even for the ones that don't already have P+, that $250 is still cheaper per year than the cost of a full region for a year.

[Toothless Draegonne]

5 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Lots of folks think that giving LL $250 for all of the other various Premium Plus benefits is worth it.  For some of those folks getting a Homestead without having to have a full region first is a bonus.

Even for the ones that don't already have P+, that $250 is still cheaper per year than the cost of a full region for a year.

So is $109 per month, so why require $250/year for it?

Ploos isn't worth it either. If you really want the extra madlands tier, buy two normal premiums for "only" double the price. If you're uploading that many thousands of textures, why even local textures and beta grid?

Again, $109. Per month. Plus tax.  For a region that runs like a potato if you're doing anything other than admiring whatever scenery you can shoehorn into 5K.

It could always have been done.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Toothless Draegonne

[Katherine Heartsong]

27 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

"Congratulations, you can now give us $109+tax per month to get a region with quarter the prims and compute of a full region, without buying a full region."

"But only if you give us $250/year first."

What mentalist thought this was a good deal?

The main point of this was this ... without buying a full region. Some of us could never contemplate paying $249/month for a full region PLUS the $109 to get that homestead. We also wanted control over that homestead's name, rating, position on the grid etc., so not renting from a landlord. And 5K prims is more than enough to decorate a homestead well.

And the next part ...

Yes, it's $250/year, true, however ... to own a region you'd already have been paying $99/year. So technically it's an additional $150/year, so just $12.50 more per month.

For the many people expressing a desire to own a homestead without a region over the years, plus the additional benefits of PP, it just may be worth it, and a good deal. I feel the only folks upset by this are the land barons, and that's fine by me One man's fish is another man's poisson, after all.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Katherine Heartsong

[Toothless Draegonne]

1 minute ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

The main point of this was this ... without buying a full region. Some of us could never contemplate paying $249/month for a full region PLUS the $109 to get that homestead. And 5K prims is more than enough to decorate a homestead well.

And the next part ...

Yes, it's $250/year, true, however ... to own a region you'd already have been paying $99/year. So technically it's an additional $150/year, so just $12.50 more per month.

For the many people expressing a desire to own a homestead without a region over the years, plus the additional benefits of PP, it just may be worth it, and a good deal. One man's fish is another man's poisson, after all.

I say again, this is something that could have always been done. And no, you don't have to be premium to own a full region. Stop defending the dumb. This is someone in the Lab frantically scratching at ways to make The Mighty Ploos more attractive. It is a cash grab and nothing but a cash grab.

[LittleMe Jewell]

Whether or not Premium benefits are truly "benefits" has been argued in these forums more times than I can count.  It is something that every person has to decide for themselves, based on how they use SL.  The same is true of the Premium Plus benefits.

Nobody can say what is or is not a good deal for someone else.

[Toothless Draegonne]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Whether or not Premium benefits are truly "benefits" has been argued in these forums more times than I can count.  It is something that every person has to decide for themselves, based on how they use SL.  The same is true of the Premium Plus benefits.

Nobody can say what is or is not a good deal for someone else.

And $109 per month plus tax for a potato-grade region is something that could have always been done, without a $250/year extra shoved on top of it. If you think that's an almighty deal, go for it.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

And $109 per month plus tax for a potato-grade region is something that could have always been done, without a $250/year extra shoved on top of it. If you think that's an almighty deal, go for it.

Prior to this benefit, the ONLY way anyone was able to buy that "potato-grade" region was AFTER they first agreed to buy a Full Region and pay $229 EVERY MONTH for that Full Region.  

Now, instead of $229 EVERY MONTH, they pay $249 ONCE PER YEAR.  BIG, BIG money savings. 

Lots of people actually want that so-called "potato grade" region - without also having a Full Region. For SOME people, it IS a benefit.

Obviously, for you it is not a benefit.

[Istelathis]

1 hour ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

Stop defending the dumb. All this shows is that homesteads could always have been sold on their own.

When it comes to the finances of LL, we are all the dumb.  Most of us simply are not privy to the inner workings of their finances, what keeps the lights on, etc.  I'm of the opinion, that without advertising, it is the land owners that fund the majority of SL which is why we see prices as outrageously high as they are.  I mean, we can run our own regions for free on OS, we can rent servers for them for a fraction of what LL charges, but then we abandon all of the assets we own in SL, we also abandon all of the updates, and so  on.

I would like to think, LL is competent enough to charge a rate that allows for expansion, without scaring off potential customers, and have found a sweet spot that is attractive enough to people to maintain everything.  I could be wrong, they could be gnawing their own arm off in pursuit of greed, I simply don't know.

Regardless of our thoughts on the matter, how people spend their money is really not our call to make.  A simple thank you to them, for keeping SL relatively inexpensive for the rest of us is all I offer to the people that choose to pay the bills, along with providing us a place to explore and hang out if they so choose to.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Istelathis

[Toothless Draegonne]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Prior to this benefit, the ONLY way anyone was able to buy that "potato-grade" region was AFTER they first agreed to buy a Full Region and pay $229 EVERY MONTH for that Full Region.  

Now, instead of $229 EVERY MONTH, they pay $249 ONCE PER YEAR.  BIG, BIG money savings. 

Lots of people actually want that so-called "potato grade" region - without also having a Full Region. For SOME people, it IS a benefit.

Obviously, for you it is not a benefit.

Like I said, this could always have been done. No extra $249 tax required. You are paying half the price for a region with a quarter the capacity. It. Could. Always. Have. Been. Done.

It isn't a benefit. It's something that should always have been an option. Stop defending the dumb.

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

Like I said, this could always have been done. No extra $249 tax required

It could always be done ONLY if I also agreed to pay $229 PER MONTH  ----- i.e. $2748 PER YEAR --- to own a Full Region.

So you think it is better to pay $2748 per year instead of $249 per year to be allowed to get a Homestead region if I do NOT also want that Full Region?

[Toothless Draegonne]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

It could always be done ONLY if I also agreed to pay $229 PER MONTH  ----- i.e. $2748 PER YEAR --- to own a Full Region.

So you think it is better to pay $2748 per year instead of $249 per year to be allowed to get a Homestead region if I do NOT also want that Full Region?

Owning a homestead without owning a full region is something that could always have been done, as I've said multiple times already. This should have been an option since the start.

No $249 tax required. You think the Lab aren't already raking in literally millions per year? You think the Lab wouldn't be raking in even more just by letting people buy homesteads without the Ploos tax?

Stop defending the dumb.

[Kathlen Onyx]

10 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

Like I said, this could always have been done. No extra $249 tax required. You are paying half the price for a region with a quarter the capacity. It. Could. Always. Have. Been. Done.

It isn't a benefit. It's something that should always have been an option. Stop defending the dumb.

You are right...it always could have been done yet a majority of "games" have paid subscription perks that you can't have unless you are monthly subscriber. That is how companies make money. They could also allow anyone to have mainland property and not have to be premium member to get it.  Again, that's how they make money.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

8 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

Stop defending the dumb. beating a dead horse.

FIFY.  

[Toothless Draegonne]

14 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

They could also allow anyone to have mainland property and not have to be premium member to get it.

Yes they could. And if you don't want support, stipends or be in some special prebuilt Linden Homeowner's Association, why not let anybody throw $7.50/month into 512m of madlands? That's what it costs anyway.

 

And if $109 per month plus tax isn't a subscription, what is?

Edited November 15, 2022 by Toothless Draegonne

[Vanity Fair]

As much as I would love to have a homestead, US$1706 at current exchange rates is CA$2,270 for the first year's cost (including the cost of P+), which is too much for me. And I already have a Premium alt with a VIctorian Linden Home. which still sits largely undecorated after a couple of years, so I don't kid myself that I am actually going to landscape a whole island 😜

[Paul Hexem]

On 11/14/2022 at 6:31 PM, Istelathis said:

I could be wrong, they could be gnawing their own arm off in pursuit of greed, I simply don't know.

Considering you can rent an Amazon virtual server (the thing that hosts these regions) for a few bucks a month, and Linden Lab is almost certainly getting a bulk discount of some kind... Eh.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

4 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Considering you can rent an Amazon virtual server (the thing that hosts these regions) for a few bucks a month, and Linden Lab is almost certainly getting a bulk discount of some kind... Eh.

AWS has different pricing for different kinds of servers, with bulk discounts, and you also pay for the processing time. (If you don't do anything with it, then you might only pay a couple bucks.)

It can easily cost hundreds of dollars a month to rent "a virtual server" from AWS. (Not that it costs LL that much to run a single sim, since multiple sims will run per server, but it's also not the only cost they have.)

The pricing for AWS/Google can sometimes make working with them kinda weird. For example, at my workplace we actually lose money if something is "a quick fix" because we pay more for the server to build our software than we can bill the customer for developer time spent.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Paul Hexem]

45 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

AWS has different pricing for different kinds of servers, with bulk discounts, and you also pay for the processing time. (If you don't do anything with it, then you might only pay a couple bucks.)

It can easily cost hundreds of dollars a month to rent "a virtual server" from AWS. (Not that it costs LL that much to run a single sim, since multiple sims will run per server, but it's also not the only cost they have.)

The pricing for AWS/Google can sometimes make working with them kinda weird. For example, at my workplace we actually lose money if something is "a quick fix" because we pay more for the server to build our software than we can bill the customer for developer time spent.

None of that really contradicts my accusation that LL massively marks up the cost when they turn around and sell us virtual land, other than "they have other costs too"- but then so does everyone else that rents servers out to people at a fraction of the cost of SL land.

I'd be willing to make an honest wager that LL couldn't come into this thread and tell us they wouldn't still make a profit even if Homesteads were half price for P+ members.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

None of that really contradicts my accusation that LL massively marks up the cost when they turn around and sell us virtual land, other than "they have other costs too"- but then so does everyone else that rents servers out to people at a fraction of the cost of SL land.

I'd be willing to make an honest wager that LL couldn't come into this thread and tell us they wouldn't still make a profit even if Homesteads were half price for P+ members.

I'm not arguing that land can't be cheaper, I was clarifying for others in this thread that AWS isn't as cheap as you made it seem.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Nika Talaj]

21 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'd be willing to make an honest wager that LL couldn't come into this thread and tell us they wouldn't still make a profit even if Homesteads were half price for P+ members.

On 11/14/2022 at 3:45 PM, Toothless Draegonne said:

No $249 tax required. You think the Lab aren't already raking in literally millions per year? You think the Lab wouldn't be raking in even more just by letting people buy homesteads without the Ploos tax?

Stop defending the dumb.

"LL is raking in the big buckaroos at our expense!!" or "LL is being stupid!" allegations are endless and always depress me. 

They remind me of my foster kid's bio mom, who was utterly convinced that social workers were somehow making a fortune by insisting that her visits to her son be supervised.  My foster kid would not surrender that belief until high school, when I taught him how to factor potential earnings into his thinking about careers.  After I showed him how little money U.S. social workers make, he did not believe me until he went to the library and researched it on his own.

We cannot research how much money LL makes, because they are not public and do not disclose any information.  I would hope they make at least a few million, because if not it would be hard to justify keeping the doors open, from a purely business perspective.  Here's a few things we DO know:

• Google says LL is down to ~140 employees.
• They have opted not to have a CEO - the executive team appears to operate much like a family business.
• Various Lindens and moles have stated that it is actually more expensive to use AWS than their old server farms.  Remember, they are not leasing a single server.  They are leasing a network architecture, with some redundancy, failover, and global reach.
• Nowadays, LL's leadership appears sensitive to the pivotal role SL plays in the lives of many residents.  They referred to it a few times during covid lockdowns.

Are they doing stupid things?  Probably, every company does, but we actually don't know which things they're doing are stupid, because we know so little.  To me, it looks like they share what you could think of as "Disney's Disease" - Disney amusement parks and vacation offerings are losing visitors because they desperately need maintenance and reinvention, but Disney is unwilling or unable to do that.   LL may be similarly burdened by decisions of the past - like the fallow swaths of unowned mainland and old Linden Homes supported only by Premium subscriptions, or the bizarro tier structure.  But maybe those really aren't much of a burden, how would I know?

At this point we know zippo about LL's ledger.  So ... why let it bother us?

Personally, I just hope that LL makes enough to compensate employees and moles REALLY WELL, (which was never part of Philip's DNA), because it sometimes seems to me that they just a few key employees away from having to shut down.

[Stephanie Misfit]

What are the advantages of purchasing a homestead from LL, rather than renting one from a land baron, if I am already a premium plus member? I am in Australia so there will be a fee (GST of 10%) to pay on top of the monthly cost. However, there is also a fee for me to buy lindens to pay a land baron, and a fee to use PayPal to pay a land baron for rent if they allow that method. I am just wanting to know if I will see any real benefit to owning my own homestead as opposed to renting.

[Alwin Alcott]

2 hours ago, Stephanie Misfit said:

What are the advantages of purchasing a homestead from LL, rather than renting one from a land baron, if I am already a premium plus member? I am in Australia so there will be a fee (GST of 10%) to pay on top of the monthly cost. However, there is also a fee for me to buy lindens to pay a land baron, and a fee to use PayPal to pay a land baron for rent if they allow that method. I am just wanting to know if I will see any real benefit to owning my own homestead as opposed to renting.

it's pretty simple: look what the costs are for the options you mention, what is cheaper, the paypal cost/GST cost..

I rent from a landlord who offers paypal,  at the moment for  $27.30 weekly , converted to euro's by PP € it's  € 25.84
( when i convert it back on a external exchange i don't see a real cost for paypal in it, i get a value of $ 27.29 back.)
When i would buy a homestead, i'd need $ 109 + 21% VAT + a P+ subscription... it's pretty clear that this last one is several hundreds of $ more on a yearly base.