Silent Mistwalker Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Peeve: The level of f$*@#($#@ entitlement in the Firestorm-Phoenix Preview Group. "Well, I'm getting 100FPS on the PBR viewer, and everything looks great! Where's your evidence that there are people this is going to impact negatively?" "You can't expect to have good quality graphics unless you have a high end GPU. That's just the way it works. Sorry." $@#*(%$##(@#@#$*%$$## They've always been a bunch of prima donnas. It's why I quit the group more than a decade ago. They'll even do that to the devs and support staff. That wasn't how I wanted to treat people. Edited February 14 by Silent Mistwalker 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said: They've always been a bunch of prima donnas. It's why I quit the group more than a decade ago. They'll even do that to the devs and support staff. That wasn't how I wanted to treat people. I have a few friends who work with FS, one of whom is actually a mod for that group -- and they are really lovely. But wow . . . some of these people are not only completely out of touch with the realities of most residents, but arrogant about it too. I had one guy, a moderator, claiming that my concerns merely reflected my own experience, all the while ignoring another person in the background who was literally trying to get his attention in order to ask about the negative impact the new viewer was having on his graphics. Oh, and the forums are apparently a "concentration of people in an echo chamber of people who like to complain." Smile and be happy people! We can guarantee that that iceberg poses no threat!! Edited February 14 by Scylla Rhiadra 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PheebyKatz Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I have a few friends who work with FS, one of whom is actually a mod for that group -- and they are really lovely. But wow . . . some of these people are not only completely out of touch with the realities of most residents, but arrogant about it too. I had one guy, a moderator, claiming that my concerns merely reflected my own experience, all the while ignoring another person in the background who was literally trying to get his attention in order to ask about the negative impact the new viewer was having on his graphics. Oh, and the forums are apparently a "concentration of people in an echo chamber of people who like to complain." Smile and be happy people! We can guarantee that that iceberg poses no threat!! I once tried helping someone with an issue concerning a stuck animation, and was told to shut up and they should just buy better animations. And that it was final, and that was that. I think they let 12-year-olds join, is all. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Peeve: The level of f$*@#($#@ entitlement in the Firestorm-Phoenix Preview Group. "Well, I'm getting 100FPS on the PBR viewer, and everything looks great! Where's your evidence that there are people this is going to impact negatively?" "You can't expect to have good quality graphics unless you have a high end GPU. That's just the way it works. Sorry." $@#*(%$##(@#@#$*%$$## You mean the Gods turn out to be only half gods? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 29 minutes ago, PheebyKatz said: I once tried helping someone with an issue concerning a stuck animation, and was told to shut up and they should just buy better animations. And that it was final, and that was that. I think they let 12-year-olds join, is all. OMG, it's true! The forum really is an "echo chamber of people who like to complain"!! 😀 Yeah, I think they mean well, most of them, and good for them to volunteer their time, etc., etc. But they are a bit of an echo chamber themselves. My suggestion, oft-repeated and dismissed because I had no "statistical evidence" that PBR was going to be an issue for some people, was that the group could benefit from hearing input from people who don't all own gaming computers (a term which was also dismissed, btw, as "marketing jargon") and regularly run at 120 FPS on ultra. Because, of course, people in groups like this tend to be tech-oriented, and have nice computers. On one occasion, maybe a month or so ago, a creator came in to find out why she couldn't also add legacy textures to an object she'd applied PBR materials to. The people in the group, most of whom seem savvy enough about computer graphics to talk about why LL rejected "linear tone mapping" (whatever that is) were pretty much sure she was just doing it wrong. Which, of course, she was -- but they didn't know what it was. It took me, who wouldn't know linear tone mapping if it walked over, shook my hand, and introduced itself, to explain to her how it was done. Edited February 14 by Scylla Rhiadra Typo 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PheebyKatz Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: OMG, it's true! The forum really is an "echo chamber of people who like to complain"!! 😀 Yeah, I think they mean well, most of them, and good for them to volunteer their time, etc., etc. But they are a bit of an echo chamber themselves. My suggestion, oft-repeated and dismissed because I had no "statistical evidence" that PBR was going to be an issue for some people, was that the group could benefit from hearing input from people who don't all own gaming computers (a term which was also dismissed, btw, as "marketing jargon") and regularly run at 120 FPS on ultra. Because, of course, people in groups like this tend to be tech-oriented, and have nice computers. On one occasion, maybe a month or so ago, a creator came in to find out why she couldn't also add legacy textures to an object she'd applied PBR materials to. The people in the group, most of whom seem savvy enough about computer graphics to talk about why LL rejected "linear tone mapping" (whatever that is) were pretty much sure she was just doing it wrong. Which, of course, she was -- but they didn't know what it was. It took me, who wouldn't know linear tone mapping if it walked over, shook my hand, and introduced itself, to explain to her how it was done. They need less Dunning-Kruger and more genuine technical understanding. Genuine technical understanding would have been more solution-oriented than nerd-flexing-oriented. The flexing ones, they aren't real nerds. They're posers. That's why they're so touchy about it. Real nerds just wanna fix it and make it go. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 7 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Peeve: The level of f$*@#($#@ entitlement in the Firestorm-Phoenix Preview Group. "Well, I'm getting 100FPS on the PBR viewer, and everything looks great! Where's your evidence that there are people this is going to impact negatively?" "You can't expect to have good quality graphics unless you have a high end GPU. That's just the way it works. Sorry." $@#*(%$##(@#@#$*%$$## If it's any consolation I have seen the performance hit you talked a couple of weeks ago. I dusted off an old laptop that I used to use with Firestorm and SL (Ubuntu Linux). This laptop has an i7 CPU, 8Gb system memory and a Nvidia GeForce 640M with 2Gb GPU memory. Terrible by today's standards but it was no slouch when purchased new and hardware-wise is still working just fine. Anyway, I fired it up and installed the latest Firestorm release (6.6.17.70368) and amazingly with a bit of tweaking (shadows off but ALM still on) it gave around 25fps at my home spot and I could move around just fine with lagging. This is about the same level of performance this laptop always gave me on Firestorm even when new. Then I installed the latest Firestorm PBR alpha (the one that just expired but before that expiry) to see how that would do. No matter how I tweaked the settings, the best I could get was about 9.5fps and moving around was very jerky/laggy at my home spot. I don't even have any PBR items rezzed out either. So there is definitely a performance hit for some hardware with FS PBR and therefore some people will be negatively impacted. Obviously FS is still alpha and maybe some of those LL bugs they are holding out for will improve things so perhaps it isn't fair yet to really make comparisons. However, it is an indicator that there may be troubles ahead. Oh and on the people who post on the Firestorm-Phoenix Preview Group, I totally understand. I recently fired up the FS Alpha and was told it had expired. I went to the group and asked if there was an updated alpha build available because I was seeing this message. Basically, I was told that: I must be mistaken. Alpha builds don't expire. My alpha build is working just fine (they were on Windows). This was not from mods/staff, just ordinary members and continued until two other people came along and said they were seeing the same thing and then there was a group notice sent out. Talk about an irritating experience. Edited February 14 by Gabriele Graves 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 3 hours ago, PheebyKatz said: Real nerds just wanna fix it and make it go. Just like Pakleds! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Peeve: I see justified (and even possibly exaggerated) angst about the lower frame rate under PBR, but you'd think with all of us smart Forumites, we would see some posts that a) the Lab acknowledges the issue, and b) they plan on improving on it? Did a) and b) not happen, or did I miss it? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: we would see some posts that a) the Lab acknowledges the issue, and b) they plan on improving on it? Did a) and b) not happen, or did I miss it? You expect such a response from the team that used to be forbidden to use the word "lag", and who responded to faults in EEP by closing JIRAs with the comment "working as intended"? There's more chance of them sending you a free pony. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Peeve: I see justified (and even possibly exaggerated) angst about the lower frame rate under PBR, but you'd think with all of us smart Forumites, we would see some posts that a) the Lab acknowledges the issue, and b) they plan on improving on it? Did a) and b) not happen, or did I miss it? I haven't seen anything but considering they never came in to address the cash-out issues either recently, I tend to assume they generally don't on even important things. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: You expect such a response from the team that used to be forbidden to use the word "lag", and who responded to faults in EEP by closing JIRAs with the comment "working as intended"? There's more chance of them sending you a free pony. Considering that sometimes - SOMETIMES - the "team" as you put it, actively "engages" us on new functionality, yes. Edited February 14 by Love Zhaoying 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said: I haven't seen anything but considering they never came in to address the cash-out issues either recently, I tend to assume they generally don't on even important things. Peeve: In general LL doesn't always address complaints about "issues" in the Forums. But sometimes they do, and sometimes for new functionality like PBR, they actively engage via "feedback threads". (I'm NOT saying there was a "feedback thread" for PBR.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said: Considering that sometimes - SOMETIMES - the "team" as you put it, actively "engages" us on new functionality, yes. New functionality is different though. They get to showcase and it's all positive strokes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Just now, Gabriele Graves said: New functionality is different though. They get to showcase and it's all positive strokes. My mind, feelthy, went there, it did. (In Yoda voice.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said: Peeve: In general LL doesn't always address complaints about "issues" in the Forums. But sometimes they do, and sometimes for new functionality like PBR, they actively engage via "feedback threads". (I'm NOT saying there was a "feedback thread" for PBR.) Certainly it's not unheard of but it isn't very common either and generally doesn't end well. Remember the Senra Beta feedback topic? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said: Considering that sometimes - SOMETIMES - the "team" as you put it, actively "engages" us on new functionality, yes. Yeah but... Generally only when the stuff more or less works. Add a new script command, they engage, because it basically works. 18 month public beta of EEP that breaks the sky on 7500 regions, sound of crickets, "working as intended". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Just now, Gabriele Graves said: Remember the Senra Beta feedback topic? Yeah, that was especially silly since it was..a..Beta release. Peeve: Very good reason why specific details aren't discussed about the Mobile Alpha here on the Forums. (No, nobody told us NOT to discuss the Mobile Alpha here on the Forums. Participants in the Alpha like me, were NOT asked to agreed to any confidentiality / etc. that we would not discuss it..) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: Yeah but... Generally only when the stuff more or less works. Add a new script command, they engage, because it basically works. 18 month public beta of EEP that breaks the sky on 7500 regions, sound of crickets, "working as intended". Even on scripting stuff, I think they are surprised when most people are like "yes, great but ...". I usually have the image of a deer in headlights when that happens. Edited February 14 by Gabriele Graves 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 I find LL does engage, just not really on the forums https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=c_kphtklo9degke40dpk7nr6cclc@group.calendar.google.com The Content Creation User Group is a good place to go if you want to talk to LL viewer developers, whilst the Simulator User Group is a good place to raise script concerns. I have been daily driving Firestorm PBR Alpha and yes it definitely has FPS issues. But I personally haven't had FPS issues in the LL default viewer or Alchemy Beta. Since the Firestorm build is in alpha, I think this is to be expected though. I'm waiting to see Firestorm PBR Viewer reach at least beta before I start criticising it, because alpha in software generally means it's still under heavy development and likely to change a lot. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: I find LL does engage, just not really on the forums https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=c_kphtklo9degke40dpk7nr6cclc@group.calendar.google.com The Content Creation User Group is a good place to go if you want to talk to LL viewer developers, whilst the Simulator User Group is a good place to raise script concerns. We are a truly international crowd though and not everyone can make those times (I find daytime US almost impossible to be inworld unless I'm not working) and if many did as you suggest they'd have to choose a different way of holding it as having them inworld would not scale. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 13 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: But I personally haven't had FPS issues in the LL default viewer or Alchemy Beta. Peeve: Same here, but I assume that maybe I am just lucky, with all of the complaints - possibly others have frame rate issues in the Official viewer. Peeve: However, not many others on the Forums appear to use the official viewer so..all I can do is feel sorry for those with problems and hope that they are being addressed. Peeve: If the problems really ARE with the Firestorm viewer, it is a little sad to me that users seem to be blaming the changes and not the viewer! (I suppose they don't know if it is just the viewer, if they only use Firestorm..) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Yes, not claiming its a perfect solution. Often people in the group do bring up points from the forum though, so it's not a complete loss to talk about stuff here either. Inara Pey does a good job documenting the meetings, if you are interested in what LL are working on and what is getting discussed https://modemworld.me/category/second-life/sl-tech/sl-project-updates/ 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 4 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: Yes, not claiming its a perfect solution. Often people in the group do bring up points from the forum though, so it's not a complete loss to talk about stuff here either. Inara Pey does a good job documenting the meetings, if you are interested in what LL are working on and what is getting discussed https://modemworld.me/category/second-life/sl-tech/sl-project-updates/ I appreciate that but I would attend if I could. Yup, do read Inara's blog, very useful. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 42 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Peeve: I see justified (and even possibly exaggerated) angst about the lower frame rate under PBR, but you'd think with all of us smart Forumites, we would see some posts that a) the Lab acknowledges the issue, and b) they plan on improving on it? Did a) and b) not happen, or did I miss it? It has been implemented on time. It came in de books of 2023. Now there is only boring stuff left to do: fixing and improve things. That doesn't bring in bonuses. LL has a voting system for their employees. One has to be working on sexy things to stand a chance. Fixing broken stuff or improving what was wrong in the first place not so much. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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