CasperTech Acquisition Discussion

[Qinelenlea Watanabe]

I have to admit I am a bit uneasy on the acquisition because of the aforementioned possibility of  "Adding the 10% fee already used by the Marketplace for all sales" discussed earlier by Faith and others.  If the standard set by Casper is kept in only charging for initial fees to own a license to use and the free format charges the percentage then fantastic and no harm no foul.  However, if this does change with the fees similar to the MP,  I can see a lot of discontent in the masses.

P.S.  I seen earlier someone mentioning licenses purchased before the acquisition would be able to shut down any payment to LL for "fees" (I guess that is the way I am reading the post by Charlotte...apologies if I misread the post).  Nothing is absolute in the world of SL, as changes can be made to the existing and if not.....all LL has to do is void the one and force the new.  Yes this would cause irritation in the masses.  However, I doubt the doors of LL are going to be stormed by a horde of pitchfork wielding villagers is going to happen to change the mind of "BeanCounters Linden."  We as members can only hope LL does not alter some features all of us have enjoyed over the the years.

With all this said, I do like the idea of having LL step in to help Casper's "baby" grow and become even more stable (Yes, Casper has done an amazing job at the current system in repairing issues that have popped up) by having a larger team to ensure a smoother system with even greater potential.  I hope the best for this acquisition and thank Casper and Patch for seeking to better a already great system and making it even better.

[Qinelenlea Watanabe]

5 hours ago, Mikal Brinner said:

Why is 10% the magic number?  10% looks a lot different to creators who sell shoes for 250L versus those who sell vehicles at 2000L or buildings at 5000L.  The cost to LL isn't any different but some are carrying a greater burden than others, per transaction. I'm not arguing with you about rates necessarily but it is about being fair per transaction rather than income tax.   

For premium users, perhaps a differential or scaled LL fee or  no fee/rate at all.  Make it an enticement for people to pay in to a higher level of membership.  I'm not saying that LL should not get a return on their investment but if transactions fee Casper, along comes LL charging a fee is similar to making a toll road out of a road users already paid to use.  This is not the only issue and I agree, people are stoking worries which are not apparent.  Still, a cost of doing business impacts business.

My position, to be clear, is for current Casper users to have a seat at the table when discussing policies going forward and while LL is focused on a smooth integration, that is not the only topic of consideration for the future.  When bringing people to the table, people who sell low cost items and those who sell higher cost items should be heard .

Mikal, the difference between a 10k LD item and a 250 LD item is the 10 K item is going to sell far less volume than the 250 item because one is high end such as a expensive home or a surfing wave and the other is lower end which can include clothing and other items that sell more in volume,  This higher volume actually carries a higher zap than the one selling in the higher end items at the lower volume depending on the amount of the differences between the two.  I have chatted with creators in the high end....some are fortunate to have a larger amount of sales such as Caspervend.  I believe creators such as Casper Warden are the exception to the rule, because he and others like him have hit the "sweet spot" of popular items, whereas the majority of other high end sellers are still trying to find their "groove."  Either the or.....everyone pays their dues to the MP Monster like it or not and the amounts paid in fees are still the same....10% of all transactions MP wise.

[Dictatorshop]

I would like to chime in as a CasperVend user since early 2014.  I as a bit excited about the possible integrations, like ratings on items purchased in the MP as well as in-world.  Having a single listing pipeline that would work for both would save so much time.  

That said, fully 75% of my sales are in-world.  If LL decides (at that point in the future that they are carefully avoiding mention of) to start charging 10% for in-world transactions like they do now in the MP, I will drop out of the system then and there, full stop.  I realize LL has to make their money, I get it, but I am REALLY TIRED OF FEELING NICKLED AND DIMED already. Another 10% skimmed off of 75% of my sales. Oh hëll no!!!!  

So, LL I do hope you think long and hard before you even think about going there!  I am trying to keep the positives in my head, I really am, but it is difficult for me to avoid seeing the serious consequences to MY bottom line if you all decide to "streamline" the fee system for an across the board 10%. 

I have seen a few folks mentioning fees in other systems, but frankly I don't care what Meta and Roblox charge their creators.  It is a moot point because that isn't what we signed up for in SL. I do not think it is fair to put such burdens on your revenue generating merchants and I sincerely hope there are zero plans in that direction.

[Lucifera Morningstar]

19 minutes ago, Dictatorshop said:

I would like to chime in as a CasperVend user since early 2014.  I as a bit excited about the possible integrations, like ratings on items purchased in the MP as well as in-world.  Having a single listing pipeline that would work for both would save so much time.  

That said, fully 75% of my sales are in-world.  If LL decides (at that point in the future that they are carefully avoiding mention of) to start charging 10% for in-world transactions like they do now in the MP, I will drop out of the system then and there, full stop.  I realize LL has to make their money, I get it, but I am REALLY TIRED OF FEELING NICKLED AND DIMED already. Another 10% skimmed off of 75% of my sales. Oh hëll no!!!!  

So, LL I do hope you think long and hard before you even think about going there!  I am trying to keep the positives in my head, I really am, but it is difficult for me to avoid seeing the serious consequences to MY bottom line if you all decide to "streamline" the fee system for an across the board 10%. 

I have seen a few folks mentioning fees in other systems, but frankly I don't care what Meta and Roblox charge their creators.  It is a moot point because that isn't what we signed up for in SL. I do not think it is fair to put such burdens on your revenue generating merchants and I sincerely hope there are zero plans in that direction.

People keep talking about this as if all LL ever does is add fees. Again, this has been part of a process they've been talking about for years, to shift revenue away from land tier so land can be more affordable. And there isn't any doubt that they will do it because they've ALREADY done it - they lowered the land tier FIRST (back in 2018), by 15%, and doubled the free tier for premium members at the same time (from 512m to 1024m), so those in-world stores where you get your 75% of sales has been benefiting from that. They added the new fees AFTER, to balance revenue, exactly as they said they would. This is not a fact that can be causally discarded. They've been 100% up front about this from the start, and have restated this intent since then.

And they have stated they plan on lowering tier further. But it has to be a paced process, to avoid upending the SL economy by making too drastic of a change all at once.

[Dictatorshop]

Tier and sales taxes are two very different animals. For my in-world sales I am already paying tier for my shops and events to cover their tier.  Sure i wouldn't complain if my full Sim was 99 bucks a month and it might take some of the sting out of additional fees but not much.  More fees will just increase in-world inflation IMHO.

[Martina Voxel]

Hello @Patch Linden , @Casper Warden and all.

Maybe it was already asked, but... i m too lazy to read all 😅

Will we be able in the future to see what we bought in world by Casper Vendors to the same article page in the Marketplace? Sometimes I like place a review that I think it will be useful to others, but as I buy more inworld when I can than in Marketplace, I m not able to review a lot of articles i bought and I m happy (or not... yes it happens🙄) with.

Thank you for the answer and I wish you all a great day (sorry for my very basic english)

[Asadora Summers]

10 hours ago, Cate Foulsbane said:

I've tried reading as much as possible but it's overwhelming. Bottom line for me, how does this affect the average shopper, the average NON-business person?

 

As far as I am aware, it does not affect the non business person/consumer

[Jenny Ashland]

13 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

They are a business not a charity after all. 

Well said! If you are worried about a few dollars here and there, then maybe SL is not the game for you. 

[xxxnancy Braveheart]

What is in it for Linden Lab then ?

 

[Alwin Alcott]

6 minutes ago, xxxnancy Braveheart said:

What is in it for Linden Lab then ?

 

that's on them, if they devolop it further it can perhaps be integrated to MP, and give control about MP and inworld sales. Like they integrated Xstreet  years ago.
 

A bit like this thread "discussion  about the acquisition" while it's done already. At most it's a question thread, not a discussion.

[Nikolay Riddler]

Honestly I have not read the rest of the post, but I want to express my concerns:

- I am concerned that in the long term the system's policies will change, such as implementing commission charges

- I am concerned that in the long term the technical staff will change and that they will not make as much effort as the current ones

- I am now concerned about how complex the new technical support can be, taking into account that the current one solves your problems almost immediately.

- I am concerned that due to the complexity of LL policies, technicians no longer have as much freedom to improve, implement new ideas or even improve the system.

Cheers

[Gordon Nadezda]

On 9/14/2022 at 12:06 PM, faith Jolifaunt said:

Is LL going to start taking a percentage of our in-world sales now?? I don't know if I'm down with this.

Wasn't CasperTech already taking a percentage of in-world sales? If so, wouldn't it be OK for SecondLife's creator to receive that percentage? 

[Blaise Glendevon]

1 hour ago, Nikolay Riddler said:

Honestly I have not read the rest of the post

You really should have. Everything you brought up has been discussed.

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Gordon Nadezda said:

Wasn't CasperTech already taking a percentage of in-world sales? If so, wouldn't it be OK for SecondLife's creator to receive that percentage? 

CV did that on the free versions, not the bought ones. You can wait of course that it will change in time.

[Yingzi Xue]

I have many thoughts on this, but have struggled to put together a coherent post thus-far, having spent a good hour or two writing and rewriting this post.  I'm going to try to get it all in the post.  It might be a jumbled mess.  I apologize in advance.

History

When I joined Second Life in 2007, Hippo was the product to use for vending and renting.  It was far from perfect.  It was bloated because it had to be, to ensure reliability.  Script functions would be added later to make way for better solutions.

At the time, as a budding creator (scripter, builder), I wanted to open my own store and sell products.  Hippo seemed the logical choice, so I purchased it.  I never did end up using it, because I couldn't abide by the inefficiency of how it was designed.  Like Casper, I wrote my own vendor system out of necessity, but ended up selling it as one of my products for many years.  (It is no longer on the market.)

Hippo lit a creative fire in me to do better, so the purchase was not a loss in my view.  Keep in mind, I never intended for my vendor system to compete with Hippo, nor be the next big thing.  It was aimed at a niche market that shared my view that vendors should be efficient, reliable and minimal.

At around the same time, Casper's work was starting to gain traction.  I eventually purchased CasperVend and CasperLet (et al), not only to support Casper's work, but to see the design of his products.

CasperVend and CasperLet

CasperVend and CasperLet are great products and will make a great addition to Second Life, but they're not for me.  Here's why.

Even though I own these flagship CasperTech products, I don't use them.

The philosophy I held back in 2007 is still the same today.  A vendor system should get out of your way and let you sell your products, not mire you in configuration settings and feature checkboxes.  Upkeep should be simple and straight-forward.

Closing Thoughts

I hope Second Life takes their new acquisitions in the direction of efficiency and minimalism, updating the Marketplace with the same workflow.

I would also appeal to the sensibilities of the creators out there, that less can be more.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Yingzi Xue

[ChinRey]

But you have all forgotten the most important question! Will the Upgrade Bees still perform all those small but crucial side tasks nobody else seem to take responsibility for?

(Edit: Yes, I know Torley has left but surely LL has found a replacement who needs to be kept an eye on, right?)

(Edit 2: On second thought, discovering Mrs. Higgs' bosom is probably a waste of time. From what I've been told it's very, very small so she wouldn't have fitted in with the SL crowd anyway. I suppose the task list does need a little bit of revision.)

Edited September 16, 2022 by ChinRey

[Gingir Ghoststar]

Coming back to add. Some of you seem to be upset that Linden Labs and Tillia have to charge fees. Some of these are for business and development, but many of these are government banking regulations that LL cannot just thumb their noses at. The US govt could and WOULD shut them down if they did not follow banking regulations.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

50 minutes ago, Gingir Ghoststar said:

Coming back to add. Some of you seem to be upset that Linden Labs and Tillia have to charge fees. Some of these are for business and development, but many of these are government banking regulations that LL cannot just thumb their noses at. The US govt could and WOULD shut them down if they did not follow banking regulations.

Some of the fee's are nuts too,  I've recently stopped taking amex locally because of it,  visa and mastercard are 2.5% for me, amex is 12.5%,  I could not continue to eat the amex fee's.   People forget about the business behind the scene, without paying for staff, paying for aws, paying for all business expenses this would fold quick and then we would be without SL.    LL has to make a profit, LL has to continue operations and has to maintain it's legal status with taxes and such on a global scale.  

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

But you have all forgotten the most important question! Will the Upgrade Bees still perform all those small but crucial side tasks nobody else seem to take responsibility for?

(Edit: Yes, I know Torley has left but surely LL has found a replacement who needs to be kept an eye on, right?)

(Edit 2: On second thought, discovering Mrs. Higgs' bosom is probably a waste of time. From what I've been told it's very, very small so she wouldn't have fitted in with the SL crowd anyway. I suppose the task list does need a little bit of revision.)

I was hoping to see "Eric the Half-a-Bee".  (From Monty Python.)

 

[Mikal Brinner]

13 hours ago, Qinelenlea Watanabe said:

Mikal, the difference between a 10k LD item and a 250 LD item is the 10 K item is going to sell far less volume than the 250 item because one is high end such as a expensive home or a surfing wave and the other is lower end which can include clothing and other items that sell more in volume,  This higher volume actually carries a higher zap than the one selling in the higher end items at the lower volume depending on the amount of the differences between the two.  I have chatted with creators in the high end....some are fortunate to have a larger amount of sales such as Caspervend.  I believe creators such as Casper Warden are the exception to the rule, because he and others like him have hit the "sweet spot" of popular items, whereas the majority of other high end sellers are still trying to find their "groove."  Either the or.....everyone pays their dues to the MP Monster like it or not and the amounts paid in fees are still the same....10% of all transactions MP wise.

I'm a high end seller.  Certainly not 10K per unit but 2K per unit and for me, we do pretty well..for us.  A rate is an income tax.  A fee is a transaction fee.  The transaction  cost of utilizing any vendor service is impacted by the arbirtrary process of setting a price.  You're right about volume and in the end perhaps there is balance but that is not a principled argument.   

If we are talking about transaction costs, those using a service more frequently than others cost more to the owner of the system than those who use the system less frequently.  Those with lower volume, pay the same but yes, less than those with higher transaction volumes.  When rates are applied as a means of LL recouping or paying for expenses, those rates become income taxes calculated on the arbitrary process of a vendor setting a price.

For customers, will added transaction costs increase what you pay.  Maybe.  Unlike RL where commodities and items people need can be priced to include fluctuations in costs, SL has not worked that way very well.  For me, I'll end up eating the cost but then again, I have seen some vendors in SL who are were fairly mercenary with pricing.

Again, my position is that LL should consult with all vendor types (high end price/lower volume and low end price/high volume) and find where there is common ground if LL choose to collect some form of transaction income. Allow vendors and LL to come to terms and find a solution which is fair.  There are other vendor systems and certainly other ways to transact business in and out of world though as a vendor, CV is easier for customers to access and for vendors to place products on the market.

A solution is transaction pricing scales for Premium Plus, Premium and "nonmember" avatars.  LL has already eliminated transaction fees for uploads for Premium Plus as an incentive to pay more. It can be an incentive to increase membership level.

Final point, LL has not opened the door to transaction pricing.  In a year, they may.  I just hope LL has the presence of mind to engage community members (specifically vendors) when discussing pricing.

[Birdie Cyberstar]

This seems to be good news for residents as the product will not disappear, rather become an integrated part of second life. My question is: As a landowner, I wonder now that Casper will have more time for coding, can you think about coding that allows rental property to show on the grid with a color, much like selling land does in yellow.  This would relieve so much stress in making land rentable on the mainland.  Putting up rental prims sucks and mess the skyline. 

[Paul Hexem]

On 9/15/2022 at 10:12 AM, Anthony McGregor said:

I don't understand the discussion on this topic.

LL have worked with Casper to provide a continuous and reliable, essential service, which we use, in SL.

Data protection legislation is strong in the UK and strong in the US. We have no need to be worried.

I thank Casper and LL, for all they have done, to guarantee this service to us all.

That sounds like Tillia's PR team wrote it.

[Norsk Himmel]

1 hour ago, Teresa Firelight said:

However, I do have to commend Casper and LL for pre-announcing to the Casper customer base that this sale was happening. If we read our notices or read the support group chat, we knew a day or two before the public announcement. I feel that part of it was handled very professionally. 

There was no "pre-announcement" from either party.
Not in group chat or group notices. It was announced by LL and Casper within minutes of each other.

[Asadora Summers]

12 hours ago, Gingir Ghoststar said:

Coming back to add. Some of you seem to be upset that Linden Labs and Tillia have to charge fees. Some of these are for business and development, but many of these are government banking regulations that LL cannot just thumb their noses at. The US govt could and WOULD shut them down if they did not follow banking regulations.

Regarding the US Government, yes if taxes are not paid then fines and or prison can happen. But I just want to remind you that in LL's original release of this announcement is embedded below.

Notice the wording of: '...we have done our best to shield our residents from these taxes as long as possible, but we are no longer able to absorb them.'

It's understandable to question as to why to the above. And also it's understanding as to why the recent reactions to the LL + Caspertech announcement have been so loud on this forum.

It is absurd to have said 'LL cannot just thumb their noses at the US gov.' - clearly they did not.

Quote

Ever since Second Life’s inception two decades ago we have seen many local, state and federal governments impose new ways to collect tax revenue from internet-based businesses. The Wayfair Sales Tax case decision by the Supreme Court was when prior rules about sales tax really changed.  Since then, we have done our best to shield our residents from these taxes as long as possible, but we are no longer able to absorb them. --

 

 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

1 hour ago, Asadora Summers said:

Regarding the US Government, yes if taxes are not paid then fines and or prison can happen. But I just want to remind you that in LL's original release of this announcement is embedded below.

Notice the wording of: '...we have done our best to shield our residents from these taxes as long as possible, but we are no longer able to absorb them.'

It's understandable to question as to why to the above. And also it's understanding as to why the recent reactions to the LL + Caspertech announcement have been so loud on this forum.

It is absurd to have said 'LL cannot just thumb their noses at the US gov.' - clearly they did not.

 

I have heard so many people try this "well they should" and the SL actually has types that balk  at any and all taxes and fee's and id requirments and other items LL has to legally have on file,  the day and age of hiding online is almost done when it comes to financial transactions and hiding and not paying taxes,  the blame is mostly on the bad actors everywhere online, a stop had to be had and this is just the beginning to stop laundering and fraud.   many more items will come down the line from the US/IRS within time.