To AR Is Human . . .

[Scylla Rhiadra]

25 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

The Forums have always been strangely used, often underused, often misused by residents and officials alike.

I think I'd agree.

And the irony is that, at the moment, the GD is probably better behaved and more civil than it has been for years.

Oh well.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra
Graaaaaaammar

[Seicher Rae]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And the irony is that, at the moment, the GD is probably better behaved and more civil than they have been for years.

 

/me looks around and checks how long she's been away... notices correlation, gets confused about causation versus correlation, gets paranoid, hears snickers... yup. The more things change... 

[Paul Hexem]

19 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, to get this thread back on track (although none of this is irrelevant to the OP, I'd argue) -- now that there's a much wider range of content that one can justify reports -- and that one can reasonably expect concrete action on -- will you be reporting more, or less?

Or does this change anything for you at all in terms of your approach to reporting forum content?

Speaking as someone that's often hated by both sides of the political aisles, seeing the option to report threads going that route is actually a little appealing to me, and I can see myself reporting them more.

[Paul Hexem]

7 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I help mod the SecondLife subreddit.

We do keep the place more strictly about SL simply because the rest of reddit is right there, we will even remove posts about ex lindens or competing worlds. Metaverse and blockchain stuff is just blacklisted.

That doesn't really work so well here as a self contained community, clamping down here just encourages people to move on to other places, and it will be the most committed and minorities that go first, it always is. It wont have the desired effect of making this into an "SL is awesome echo chamber", if anything .. the tone will get significantly more salty. Killing time and giving LL space is most of the discussion here, take that away and we're not social anymore, we're here with a purpose .. and that purpose might as well be "why is this all junk and why do you hate your customers?".

This isn't some new death spiral, we've all been here before, probably many times with many companies who start struggling and trying to micro manage the community as though that's the problem.

 

The one thing we do also mod very strictly (as in, shoot first and ask questions later) is trolls who explicitly use personal insults, attack minorities and LGBTQ folk, homophobia, transphobia, racism, PMing posters to attack them, shouting about freeze peach, JAQing off, sealioning, aggressive and constant negging of female posters, and so on and so on. This is very much not the case here because of some fox news notion of "both sides".

Reddit posts are threaded and do not get bumped (unlike this forum) , so there is pressure to be relevant and be quick about it. Things can get nasty and overheat quickly, angry haters silence meaningful participation.

Much in the same way discussion of LGBTQ issues in SL is silenced here, no one wants to start those threads only to have 2 people and an alt come in and nicely imply they shouldn't exist at all. Funny, the new rules explicitly prohibit arguing against those positions, and because the posters here don't explicitly say what they actually mean (and we all know) veiled hate speech is now permitted.

 

We've been extremely pro LL to this point and routinely remove rants, not wanting the sub to descend into the enormous lake of festering anti LL bile that exists. LL are one of the only companies I know that manages to not only make their customers hate them, but hate them for life - people will seriously show up having not used SL for a decade just to unload about how much they hate SL and LL for not being dead yet - This includes most of the industry media.

I'm not saying we or I am going to change that stance, but if thinly veiled hate speech starts to show up and be allowed to stand, I'm not going to be too willing to defend LL and will be seriously reconsidering my participation on these forums, which will undoubtedly have a knock on effect to my participation and contributions to the platform.

I often want to agree with your posts, but then I keep reading and you do the very thing you're calling out, albeit on the opposite end of the spectrum. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Paul Hexem said:

Speaking as someone that's often hated by both sides of the political aisles

Oh, stop being so dramatic! No one "hates" you, you goof. 

I don't know which is going to precipitate what -- whether more reports are going to lead to an exodus, or whether an exodus is going to obviate any "need" to report. And of course, there is no way for us to know how this actually plays out.

But there will, possibly, be no "aisles" here at all soon, political or otherwise.

[Paul Hexem]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh, stop being so dramatic! No one "hates" you, you goof. 

I don't know which is going to precipitate what -- whether more reports are going to lead to an exodus, or whether an exodus is going to obviate any "need" to report. And of course, there is no way for us to know how this actually plays out.

But there will, possibly, be no "aisles" here at all soon, political or otherwise.

Sure, "hate" is a strong word. Doesn't change my point. I think it's a good change.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

I often want to agree with your posts, but then I keep reading and you do the very thing you're calling out, albeit on the opposite end of the spectrum. 

On reddit .. specifically because there is the entirety of reddit to discuss literally everything under the sun (even deeply questionable or illegal content), we keep things tightly on topic. Due to the pacing, we have to moderate negativity otherwise a minority who hate things people do in SL dominate all discussions and in turn, cause others to avoid posting new content at all. The same for drive by "taking a dump". It took us years to turn the sub around, at least the death threats have (more or less) stopped !

 

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

4 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Speaking as someone that's often hated by both sides of the political aisles

Oh, stop being so dramatic! No one "hates" you, you goof. 

 

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh, stop being so dramatic! No one "hates" you, you goof.

Sure, "hate" is a strong word.

Paul, I'm strong and I'm independent. I could hate you from the center of the aisle! Give me something to work with.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Speaking as someone that's often hated by both sides of the political aisles, seeing the option to report threads going that route is actually a little appealing to me, and I can see myself reporting them more.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

26 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

 The same for drive by "taking a dump".

"In Days of Old, when Knights were bold and toilets weren't invented.."

(Hopefully most people know the rest of the rhyme! It's not any dirtier than "taking a dump".)

 

[Akane Nacht]

Just nobody AR the joke thread pls. This is the last natural habitat of dad jokes. You don't want those roaming free all over the place.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But there will, possibly, be no "aisles" here at all soon, political or otherwise.

Yes, it shall be like the song!

"Keep your mind on your drivin'

Keep your hands on the wheel,

Keep your snoopy eyes on the road ahead!"

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Arielle and Luna, this exchange violates two parts of the community guidelines -- it's talking about "hate speech," which is pretty much definitely a "political" or "Social Justice" (sic -- note the caps) issue, and it's fast devolving into an interpersonal dispute.

Agree or disagree, this is the regime this thread now exists under, and you're going to get this thread locked if you continue along these lines. 

Please don't. It should be possible to address the issues you are discussing in more general, and less antagonistic terms.

There's no point in driving threads over the cliff because we disagree with the new rules. Let's do what we can to keep these discussions going?

[Persephone Emerald]

35 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I rail against the idea some have -- that homophobia/transphobia, misogyny, and racism do not exist.  I rail against the hurt caused by those who deny the reality of those who are the victims of this hate -- victims of the hateful acts and victims because others don't believe what they say is true.

People have the right to express misguided and even factually wrong ideas. We can only try to show they are misguided and factually wrong, but unless they're wrong about something involving SL, we apparently can't do that here. 

If someone on the forum wants to say that LGBTQ+ people don't need a sub-forum because their problems are imaginary, they can say that. We're no longer allowed to explain why they need safe places inworld or on the forum to discuss their issues without being mocked or belittled.

If someone on the forum wants to say that black people aren't really discriminated against in SL or RL, they're allowed to say that. We're no longer allowed to explain how they are actually discriminated against and how this has been part of a systemic abuse for centuries.

If someone on the forum wants to say that people claiming they suffer from mental illness are just being self-absorbed, weak-willed snowflakes, they're allowed to say that. We're no longer allowed to explain that mental illness is just as real and debilitating as physical illness and deserves to be treated as such. 

If someone on the forum wants to say that harassing female avatars inworld is just how some people show they want to be friendly with them, they're allowed to say that. We're no longer allowed to give analogies to how RL abuse and discrimination hurts women - though we may say it bothers us inworld.

We can still say that we're upset by events we experience inworld (so far), but we're no longer allowed to discuss RL events that are distressing to us, or our pets, daily events, a joke we want to share, or our favorite music or TV shows.  😞 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Persephone Emerald
parallel structure correction

[Brilla Took]

.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Brilla Took

[Persephone Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Arielle and Luna, this exchange violates two parts of the community guidelines -- it's talking about "hate speech," which is pretty much definitely a "political" or "Social Justice" (sic -- note the caps) issue, and it's fast devolving into an interpersonal dispute.

Agree or disagree, this is the regime this thread now exists under, and you're going to get this thread locked if you continue along these lines. 

Please don't. It should be possible to address the issues you are discussing in more general, and less antagonistic terms.

There's no point in driving threads over the cliff because we disagree with the new rules. Let's do what we can to keep these discussions going?

The exchange above doesn't technically fall under a discussion of "hate speech". It's not political either, unless people are stretching the definition of "political" beyond it's dictionary definition. Just because an idea differs from yours, that doesn't make it "political". "Social Justice"? meh, that's  weird thing to outlaw discussing, imo. Is an "interpersonal dispute" any time people disagree with each other? Are we supposed to act like Stepford forum posters now?

But you're right that this discussion isn't going to be allowed.

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Arielle and Luna, this exchange violates two parts of the community guidelines -- it's talking about "hate speech," which is pretty much definitely a "political" or "Social Justice" (sic -- note the caps) issue, and it's fast devolving into an interpersonal dispute.

Agree or disagree, this is the regime this thread now exists under, and you're going to get this thread locked if you continue along these lines. 

Please don't. It should be possible to address the issues you are discussing in more general, and less antagonistic terms.

There's no point in driving threads over the cliff because we disagree with the new rules. Let's do what we can to keep these discussions going?

I agree, but I would like to be able to AR someone who tries to deny that another is experiencing hate inworld.  This is so abusive to call them a liar right off the bat. I mean, if there was evidence of them lying or distorting, sure, challenge it. But I've seen some just flat out call them a liar and saying hateful actions are never directed to Blacks, gays, or women!

Perhaps we should just AR this when we see it happening and let the mods decide.

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If someone on the forum wants to say that LGBTQ+ people don't need a sub-forum because their problems are imaginary, they can say that. We're no longer allowed to explain why they need safe places inworld or on the forum to discuss their issues without being mocked or belittled.

If someone one the forum wants to say that black people aren't really discriminated against in SL or RL, they're allowed to say that. We're no longer allowed to explain how they are actually discriminated against and how this has been part of a systemic abuse for centuries.

If someone wants to say that people claiming they suffer from mental illness is just them being self-absorbed, weak-willed snowflakes, they're allowed to say this. We're no longer allowed to explain that mental illness is just as real and debilitating as physical illness and deserves to be treated as such. 

If someone wants to say that harassing's female avatars inworld is just how some people show they want to be friendly with them, they're allowed to say that. We're no longer allowed to give analogies to how RL abuse and discrimination hurts women - though we may say it bothers us inworld.

We can still say that we're upset by events we experience inworld (so far), but we're no longer allowed to discuss RL events that are distressing to us, or our pets, daily events, a joke we want to share, or favorite music.  😞 

Wow, put like that Persephone I think this may be one of my last days on the forum   

That's even worse than not being allowed to post a pic of my newest kitty, Cordelia.     😡

[Paul Hexem]

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I agree, but I would like to be able to AR someone who tries to deny that another is experiencing hate inworld.  This is so abusive to call them a liar right off the bat. I mean, if there was evidence of them lying or distorting, sure, challenge it. But I've seen some just flat out call them a liar and saying hateful actions are never directed to Blacks, gays, or women!

Perhaps we should just AR this when we see it happening and let the mods decide.

There's no rules against ignorance.

[Paul Hexem]

9 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Paul, I'm strong and I'm independent. I could hate you from the center of the aisle! Give me something to work with.

Down with government! Down with rules! Anarchy for all!

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I agree, but I would like to be able to AR someone who tries to deny that another is experiencing hate inworld.  This is so abusive to call them a liar right off the bat. I mean, if there was evidence of them lying or distorting, sure, challenge it. But I've seen some just flat out call them a liar and saying hateful actions are never directed to Blacks, gays, or women!

Perhaps we should just AR this when we see it happening and let the mods decide.

There's no rules against ignorance.

That's true, but have your read a lot of History that describes what this kind of "ignorance" frequently leads to if left unchecked?

[Persephone Emerald]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

That's true, but have your read a lot of History that describes what this kind of "ignorance" frequently leads to if left unchecked?

I don't think we're allowed to discuss history anymore either - unless it's the history of SL.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I agree, but I would like to be able to AR someone who tries to deny that another is experiencing hate inworld.  This is so abusive to call them a liar right off the bat. I mean, if there was evidence of them lying or distorting, sure, challenge it. But I've seen some just flat out call them a liar and saying hateful actions are never directed to Blacks, gays, or women!

Perhaps we should just AR this when we see it happening and let the mods decide.

Of course then if the thread is locked or deleted, the person and viewpoints that are being misrepresented, cannot defend themselves against it. That would not be fair either would it.

[Istelathis]

If you see intolerance on the forums, do not engage it outside of invitations to discuss it more through a PM.  You may find that without an audience the person in question may be more receptive to your thoughts, and less stubborn as an attempt to save face.  I think perhaps, an AR would serve the public forums and our own ability to participate on them  best as per the wishes of LL.

You can still fight intolerance and hate, there just will not be an audience.  Those of you who do try to make life better for others, you have my appreciation.  You can also AR the offending posts.

[Paul Hexem]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That's true, but have your read a lot of History that describes what this kind of "ignorance" frequently leads to if left unchecked?

Yes, I travel mainland often. SL is pro-ignorance. It's shocking how many people have never been told what the "fullbright" checkbox actually does!