Fiona Nova Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 I agree with you, Drayke. The information is confusing. So I looked up what it would cost me. I cannot and do not want to judge what violates Australian law. If you want to see the exact price for a month or a year, you can look at the checkout before paying. That's what it comes down to in the end. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: That part should be removed for anyone outside the US --- because, yes it is very misleading. I agree, which was my whole point. Whilst I understand it is a US company with a US only mindset, it is a global service therefore it must comply with all laws globally including Australian Law (Steam, Sony, Apple, Microsoft, EA, etc found this out the hard way and had to pay $100's of millions in fines to the ACCC due to believing only US law applies) . Unfortunately for LL, claiming developer ignorance of such a thing would not hold up in the Australian Court and therefore it is in Linden Lab's best interest to ensure that the page is corrected ASAP. As I said in my first post, I would have tagged a linden to highlight this error it but I dont know who would be in charge of such a thing. So that said will tag @Patch Linden (feel sorry for him as he gets tagged for everything) so he can comment as to whether it will be removed or not (it should). They already are in breach of another law in Australia by removing the Linden Home or land from an Australian user prior to the end of a premium term should the user cancel the subscription (all items paid for in the subscription must run the full course of the subscription irrespective of whether the subscription is cancelled or not), but that is off topic. Edited June 25, 2022 by Drayke Newall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, Fiona Nova said: If you want to see the exact price for a month or a year, you can look at the checkout before paying. That's what it comes down to in the end. Might come down to that, but is shouldn't require an extra step to see if other taxes are being applied as stated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 45 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said: Might come down to that, but is shouldn't require an extra step to see if other taxes are being applied as stated. Ya, but even in the states, the final purchase is going to be different from state to state, because of states having different tax rates and some not even having to pay tax.. On any purchases that get taxed, we'll never know until right before checkout what % tax our state will charge.. I mean I'm sure we can look it up, but I doubt any place calculates it in until right before checkout. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, JudiLynn India said: You get most of it back. What's the issue? No, the math doesn't work out like that. Two regular premiums get you almost exactly the same at a reduced price. Edited June 25, 2022 by Paul Hexem 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Catlyn Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said: Might come down to that, but is shouldn't require an extra step to see if other taxes are being applied as stated. They add that so they don't burn themselves if your government suddenly decides to apply taxes on, for instance, your bank transactions. The price they quote you is the price including all the tax information your government has made available to them. They just cover their backsides and say that "local taxes may apply" in case a country decides to make changes or did not provide the correct or all information regarding the taxation of transactions. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 18 minutes ago, Jules Catlyn said: They add that so they don't burn themselves if your government suddenly decides to apply taxes on, for instance, your bank transactions. The price they quote you is the price including all the tax information your government has made available to them. They just cover their backsides and say that "local taxes may apply" in case a country decides to make changes or did not provide the correct or all information regarding the taxation of transactions. Doesn't matter. Law is law and Australian Law is clear. They are not allowed to add that phrase in if GST has already been included in the price as Business to Consumer quotes, which this is, has to include ALL taxes current and cannot include phrases like +GST or "not including GST" or "not including additional local taxes". The later in which applies in this case just worded differently. Linden Lab's CFO would know this to be the case and should make sure it is corrected to comply. It is misleading to do so as it implies to the consumer that the quoted amount may not be the actual payable amount until the invoice issued. That is illegal in Australia. It is the business's responsibility to ensure all taxes are included and saying that there may be additional local taxes doesn't cover Linden Lab, it puts them in the firing line of the ACCC. No government applies a tax to your bank transactions. Banks are a business that are not operated by the government therefore cannot impose taxes on banking transactions. What you are talking about is banking fees which are placed on by the bank alone and do not need to even be mentioned. It would be different and ok if it said exchange rates or bank transaction fees may apply as that is what they are, bank fees or exchange rates. Tax is federal and specifically stating the word tax means in Australia GST not a bank fee. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samsara Capalini Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Pro-Rata I am quite interested in switching, but I am wondering if the amount is pro-rata, I have only just renewed my regular Premium account, and only 2 months into my yearly membership, I pay annually. I cannot seem to find the information laid out clearly, obviously I do not wish for 10 months of subs to disappear into the void. Does anyone know how LL are working this out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiona Nova Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 42 minutes ago, Samsara Capalini said: Pro-Rata I am quite interested in switching, but I am wondering if the amount is pro-rata, I have only just renewed my regular Premium account, and only 2 months into my yearly membership, I pay annually. I cannot seem to find the information laid out clearly, obviously I do not wish for 10 months of subs to disappear into the void. Does anyone know how LL are working this out? Proportionally: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 43 minutes ago, Samsara Capalini said: Pro-Rata I am quite interested in switching, but I am wondering if the amount is pro-rata, I have only just renewed my regular Premium account, and only 2 months into my yearly membership, I pay annually. I cannot seem to find the information laid out clearly, obviously I do not wish for 10 months of subs to disappear into the void. Does anyone know how LL are working this out? From the FAQ here Premium Plus FAQ : Linden Lab (freshdesk.com): I am currently in the middle of my Premium Membership, but I'd like to upgrade to Premium Plus now. Can you prorate the cost based on my current membership? Yes, we can! If you hold a Premium Membership and wish to upgrade to Premium Plus before your current Premium Membership completes we will prorate such that you only pay the difference between the value of the days you have left on your membership, and the cost for a Premium Plus membership for the same amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said: 53 minutes ago, Samsara Capalini said: Pro-Rata I am quite interested in switching, but I am wondering if the amount is pro-rata, I have only just renewed my regular Premium account, and only 2 months into my yearly membership, I pay annually. I cannot seem to find the information laid out clearly, obviously I do not wish for 10 months of subs to disappear into the void. Does anyone know how LL are working this out? From the FAQ here Premium Plus FAQ : Linden Lab (freshdesk.com): I am currently in the middle of my Premium Membership, but I'd like to upgrade to Premium Plus now. Can you prorate the cost based on my current membership? Yes, we can! If you hold a Premium Membership and wish to upgrade to Premium Plus before your current Premium Membership completes we will prorate such that you only pay the difference between the value of the days you have left on your membership, and the cost for a Premium Plus membership for the same amount of time. Yep! When I upgraded, it was pro-rated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiona Nova Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Then Samsara knows by now at the latest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Heartsong Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, JudiLynn India said: I have a debate going with a friend. What type of math is everyone doing? As of today, L$650 = $4.19USD. $4.19 x 52 = $217.88USD. This is what you'd be getting back by the end of the year, assuming the exchange rate doesn't change much. But my friend is doing the math based on linden dollars, which comes out far different. BTW - L$2600 = $12.28USD, not $11.00. Whatnow? As of two minutes ago ... L650 = $2.69 Don't add the LL transaction fee into this 52 times, because you could by L650x52 in one go and only pay a much smaller % fee once. If you bought L33,800 = 139.67 + $10 fee = $149. That's what you're really getting back at the end of the year ... $140 worth of Linden. Edited June 25, 2022 by Katherine Heartsong 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Catlyn Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said: Doesn't ........ fee. You did not even properly read what i wrote. All you want to hear is your own truth. If LL is not being informed about certain taxes being applied by your government, they cannot provide that info to you. So they have to cover their behinds so you cannot come back and say "Hey!! i got taxed for such and so!" Linden Lab cannot give or use info they do not have. Regardless of the law in your country. Your government can state that the price quoted is the price you will pay. Yes, that maybe true. But that same government has to make sure your supplier has all that info so they can relay it to you. If i were a supplier, i would not trust those sources either and make sure i won't get bitten if the info that was supplied to me is incorrect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jules Catlyn said: You did not even properly read what i wrote. All you want to hear is your own truth. If LL is not being informed about certain taxes being applied by your government, they cannot provide that info to you. So they have to cover their behinds so you cannot come back and say "Hey!! i got taxed for such and so!" Linden Lab cannot give or use info they do not have. Regardless of the law in your country. Your government can state that the price quoted is the price you will pay. Yes, that maybe true. But that same government has to make sure your supplier has all that info so they can relay it to you. If i were a supplier, i would not trust those sources either and make sure i won't get bitten if the info that was supplied to me is incorrect. I did read what you wrote and I am sorry but you are incorrect. If that was the case I could do the same thing with my business to absolve me of any prosecution that comes my way because I could just point to a misleading and ambiguous line and state "see the consumer should have known better because this one line absolves my business of all responsibility of any additional fees that may crop up after I have provided a quote". Maybe that works in America but in Australia you cannot claim ignorance or put clauses or catch all misleading phrases of something and get away from it. Pure and simply what they have on their premium page is misleading and in being misleading in implying that the total may not be final (even when GST is already applied) is against the law in Australia. You saying otherwise as a non business owner not in Australia does not make it true. As a prime example, Valve the owners of steam (and EA, Sony, etc.) were fined over $3million dollars from the ACCC because they said they didn't know that Australians have a right for a refund no matter how long a person plays the game. They even used that exact same excuse of "we didn't know Australian law applies to us" and "we didn't know about such laws". They even stated it after being told by customers that it is illegal with their response being basically USA Law trumps all. What happened.. they were fined. ETA: Seeing as you dont take my word for it ill quote the ACCC directly ACCC warns consumers to beware of subscription traps | ACCC it says to report any business's doing it: "All businesses must provide clear information to consumers about the cost of goods and services, including ongoing subscription services." Then there is this that clearly shows that all prices must include all taxes etc and be final which having a statement like "local taxes may apply" indicates that those stated prices may not be final. Price displays | ACCC Then if that doesn't give enough evidence, there is this article which puts it plain and clear for all to understand False or misleading claims | ACCC and I Quote: "It makes no difference whether the business intended to mislead you or not. If the overall impression left by a business's advertisement, promotion, quotation, statement or other representation creates a misleading impression in your mind—such as to the price, value or the quality of any goods and services—then the behaviour is likely to breach the law." Note that when it says in "your mind" it means me as an Australian citizen. I find it misleading as do many others who are not from Australia who have clearly posted in this thread that they find it misleading. Edited June 25, 2022 by Drayke Newall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Catlyn Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 From your own quoted website "‘Subscription trap’ is a term used to describe online retailers treating a consumer’s decision to make a single purchase as consent to signing them up to a paid, ongoing subscription service without adequately disclosing that the subscription service involves ongoing fees. Generally, this involves consumers being enticed into the membership option with a discounted price offer for an initial purchase of goods or services." That's not what is at play here. You are aware that you sign up for a subscription. it is not hidden. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Jules Catlyn said: From your own quoted website "‘Subscription trap’ is a term used to describe online retailers treating a consumer’s decision to make a single purchase as consent to signing them up to a paid, ongoing subscription service without adequately disclosing that the subscription service involves ongoing fees. Generally, this involves consumers being enticed into the membership option with a discounted price offer for an initial purchase of goods or services." That's not what is at play here. You are aware that you sign up for a subscription. it is not hidden. And the other two articles show they are in the wrong anyway so whatever, I have posted enough quotes from the ACCC that show it is misleading. I'll just wait until Monday and phone the ACCC up to report it along with not allowing subscription bought items to continue to be used until the subscription is up. Then they can contact Linden Lab directly as clearly Americans know better about all things not in their country than those countries citizens. Why is it always US companies and citizens that think they know best and no other countries law etc applies to them? Edited June 25, 2022 by Drayke Newall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Waiting on the ban of Australians. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Catlyn Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said: Waiting on the ban of Australians. I hope not! Some of my best friends are from Australia! Edited June 25, 2022 by Jules Catlyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 11 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said: And the other two articles show they are in the wrong anyway so whatever, I have posted enough quotes from the ACCC that show it is misleading. I'll just wait until Monday and phone the ACCC up to report it along with not allowing subscription bought items to continue to be used until the subscription is up. Then they can contact Linden Lab directly as clearly Americans know better about all things not in their country than those countries citizens. Why is it always US companies and citizens that think they know best and no other countries law etc applies to them? Drayke, I don't believe I've ever heard you or your 'friend' ever say a good thing about LL/SL or the US. It seems you only want to destroy, finding nothing but faults with LL and the US. I've witnessed this over quite a few years now. I mean, calling officials to tattle on LL? If you cared at all you'd just send in a support ticket or open up a JIRA informing them of the differing laws in Australia. Like I said, I don't believe you do care...you just want to destroy. Apparently, from your last sentence, you feel slighted by the US not considering Australia enough? So overall you feel left out or dominated by another country...is this the source of all your negativity? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Catlyn Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I don't believe you do care...you just want to destroy. Some people find more joy in destruction than being constructive. Maybe it is a sign of the times. I also don't get why people constantly have to be right. They will blow everything up to just achieve that. No matter what they damage or who they hurt. Ironically, i am not even from the USA, i am Dutch and proud of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 31 minutes ago, Jules Catlyn said: I hope not! Some of my best friends are from Australia! Ok, good point. How about just one? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondira Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) . Edited June 25, 2022 by Moondira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 14 minutes ago, Jules Catlyn said: 36 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I don't believe you do care...you just want to destroy. Some people find more joy in destruction than being constructive. Maybe it is a sign of the times. I also don't get why people constantly have to be right. They will blow everything up to just achieve that. No matter what they damage or who they hurt. Ironically, i am not even from the USA, i am Dutch and proud of it. Yeah I wonder if it's those who are extremely competitive who like to destroy more than build up or be constructive. It does seem to be worse in recent years, as you say. Destruction is such a big part of competition, or can be. Being right...it's pretty obvious to me that if you have to be right all the time that deep inside you feel you're very 'wrong' somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jules Catlyn said: I hope not! Some of my best friends are from Australia! Don't worry, the local flora and fauna will likely eat them before LL gets round to any ban. Edited June 25, 2022 by Coffee Pancake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebook
Instagram
Twitter
YouTube
Flickr
Recommended Posts
Please take a moment to consider if this thread is worth bumping.
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now