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Building, the hard way.


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There have been discussions on and off about in-world building. Here's a cute approach.

https://cdn.cloudflare.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/256890561/movie480_vp9.webm

Builder Simulator

it's like SL's BeYou, for building. You lay out a floor plan. You buy bricks, concrete, rebar, floor tiles, etc. You make a foundation by laying out reinforcing mesh, mixing concrete in a cement mixer, putting it into a wheelbarrow, and carrying it to where it's needed. There's placing floorboards and vertical studs, placing wallboard, screwing in wallboard, painting wallboard... Then you get to furnish your house.

It suggests an interesting direction. Make it possible to create in SL by following processes from the real world. Suppose that to create clothing, you bought a dressmakers's dummy and a sewing machine. Then you had a tool where you could drape cloth over the dummy, mark seams, cut, sew, and trim. Sort of like in-world Clo or Marvelous Designer.

It's a useful line of thinking. Blender is totally general and has far too many options for most users. But a set of tools, Home Builder, Dress Designer, Custom Car Designer, etc. would be usable by more users.

One of my back-burner ideas is semi-in-world building. You start in an SL viewer, and go someplace where you want to create something.  You open up a building tool in the viewer, and build it locally. In world, there's a cloud of dust and a construction fence if it's a building, a dressmaker's dummy covered with tan muslin if you're doing clothing, or a car chassis up on stands if you're doing a vehicle. That's what others see, work in progress. When you're done building locally, you save and upload, what you've done appears in world, and others see it. This makes creation a social activity.

 

Edited by animats
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38 minutes ago, animats said:

for building. You lay out a floor plan. You buy bricks, concrete, rebar, floor tiles, etc. You make a foundation by laying out reinforcing mesh, mixing concrete in a cement mixer, putting it into a wheelbarrow, and carrying it to where it's needed. There's placing floorboards and vertical studs, placing wallboard, screwing in wallboard, painting wallboard... Then you get to furnish your house.

I would not mind to pay to unlock building goodies but would like the option to save work for off world texturing via official viewer. I almost got into that steam farming one build your own farm take 4 wheeler to get gas yadayada very neat but would not let "builders" change the floor plans, pretty much demo and rebuild set floor plans. That would be fun open world in SL style. 

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42 minutes ago, animats said:

It suggests an interesting direction. Make it possible to create in SL by following processes from the real world. Suppose that to create clothing, you bought a dressmakers's dummy and a sewing machine. Then you had a tool where you could drape cloth over the dummy, mark seams, cut, sew, and trim. Sort of like in-world Clo or Marvelous Designer.

capes, cloaks, hand stitched gowns omy. love to be able to cut and weld parts for sure. i'd buy that for a dollar. 

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44 minutes ago, animats said:

It's a useful line of thinking. Blender is totally general and has far too many options for most users. But a set of tools, Home Builder, Dress Designer, Custom Car Designer, etc. would be usable by more users.

blender building overlays would be extremely useful especially if they were setup for ease based on interest. id buy that for a dollar. 

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46 minutes ago, animats said:

One of my back-burner ideas is semi-in-world building. You start in an SL viewer, and go someplace where you want to create something.  You open up a building tool in the viewer, and build it locally. In world, there's a cloud of dust and a construction fence if it's a building, a dressmaker's dummy covered with tan muslin if you're doing clothing, or a car chassis up on stands if you're doing a vehicle. That's what others see, work in progress. When you're done building locally, you save and upload, what you've done appears in world, and others see it. This makes creation a social activity.

Rez on body to support objects to rez anywhere and when avi logs or teleport so does the content unless clear upon teleport or log clean personal sandbox. Neat concept like a magic spell summon a work bench or a dressing room

as far as logging home choices are lacking and would be nice for new comers to have building zones. 

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3 hours ago, animats said:

. In world, there's a cloud of dust and a construction fence if it's a building, a dressmaker's dummy covered with tan muslin if you're doing clothing, or a car chassis up on stands if you're doing a vehicle. That's what others see, work in progress. When you're done building locally, you save and upload, what you've done appears in world, and others see it. This makes creation a social activity.

 

This is so great :))))))))  "That's what others see, work in progress"

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12 hours ago, animats said:

There have been discussions on and off about in-world building. Here's a cute approach.

Interesting. You don't happen to know which engine it runs on, do you? It looks a lot like Unigine to me.

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10 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Interesting. You don't happen to know which engine it runs on, do you? It looks a lot like Unigine to me.

No, I just watched the video for it.

I was impressed by this as a good midpoint between a completely general purpose 3D program and something like The Sims, where you just assemble standard building components.

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23 hours ago, animats said:

No, I just watched the video for it.

I was impressed by this as a good midpoint between a completely general purpose 3D program and something like The Sims, where you just assemble standard building components.

If sl gets edge and vert editing in world would be giant leap. more intelligent edge snapping and welding. window and door punch throughs via any object shape or copy of object. 

model building would be very popular in my opinion especially if it had to do with a linden home theme maybe called model home or maybe each theme could have bunch of homes that have to be built in a linden sandbox and then once it's completed will be able to use on linden parcel or anywhere really. Sort like the sears homes. Build your dream house literally but world build controls would need better object snapping and overlays to guild builders. collectable build kits. 

Edited by Paulsian
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14 hours ago, Paulsian said:

...

window and door punch throughs via any object shape or copy of object.

That really means CSG (Constructive Solid Geometry) and it's a bit too heavy to run in real time. Avi Bar-Zeev, the inventor of the prim wrote:

"An ideal solution might work like Constructive Solid Geometry, where simple shapes are composed and combined on the CPU to make a more optimized mesh. But that takes lots of cycles, and, in fact, it’s much easier to just draw all of the prims. Real-time rendering often requires minimizing what the CPU does and pushes everything possible down to the hardware. So that’s what we did."

CSG also tend to generate rather "dirty" meshes even after compilation. SketchUp is CSG based and that's why meshes made by it tend to perform so badly in SL and in games.

However, Bar-Zeev did come up with an ingenious workaround, the hollow prim. It's a bit limited as it is now but add the options to move the hole away from the center and change its proportions and there you go!

That brings me to the frustrating parts of this. Ignoring the fancy and cool "simulated RL building" UI aspect of it, I think the six most important core elements of a good inworld building system would be:

  • A generic (preferablyy procedural) generic building tool using standardized but modifiable building blocks
  • A clothes creation system that also includes the option to modify shapes, not just textures
  • A special (preferably procedural) tool for creating plants annd maybe also other organic objects
  • Tools for creating and modifying the ground
  • A library of carefully selected standard textures
  • A scripting system for dynamic content

The frustrating part? Second Life had cutting edge implementations of all those six elements right from the start. This was more than anything else the reason for its initial success. They're all still there of course but apart from what Andrew Linden managed to do for his own "baby", LSL, they haven't been maintained or updated for 20 years! It's always tempting to cut down on maitnenance when money is tight or the greed level is high but it always backfires in the long run.

The core problem is of course that LL never got the hang of CIP (continual improvement process) or kaizen; they don't do upgrades, they do add-ons - and occasionally emergency fixes when things go really bad. If they had focused more on developing the core functions Second Life had right from the start, we would have a much stronger, more performant and more modern SL today. But they didn't, so we don't. It may be too late now, repairing the damage of 20 years of neglect is a huge task.

Edited by ChinRey
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4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

That really means CSG (Constructive Solid Geometry) and it's a bit too heavy to run in real time.

That's neat thanks for CSG info had no idea what something like that was called. Something like that would be neat, maybe ability to assign not just one origin but multiple ones to say a house to prevent needing to add the physics blocks to models. Maybe assign face sub origin types. Walkable surfaces: slick surface, walk up or drive up surfaces (tacky surfaces).  

 

 

Annotation 2022-06-12 081016.jpg

Edited by Paulsian
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Seems neat they way they cut out the marked foundation but adding the rebar and concrete is little much As far as environmental looks the foundation and framing would give more of the gta5 look for the unfinished sites and works in progress. Should have been named construction simulator. Not a fan of paying in world cash for purchasing supplies vs with other builder games have to harvest supplies. I would rather spend time digging up sand and rock for concrete, carrying water back or installing well for water. I don't even see avatars. I think something called builder simulator would make it simple for builders. When I want to build I do not want to create building supplies like concrete. It looks like it's by the same creator that makes the home simulator programs. I can easily spot them via never ending moving landscaping. 

Seems like they are going for realism when it comes to placing doors and windows with the drilling and shims but to get the door is not a realistic transaction buying supplies from a game website and you instantly get the products, If they were really going for realism they would have had the doors and windows delivered to the work site. Looks really neat the way they have their plans and objectives. It looks well made just not a fan of swaying landscaping. 

I'm no construction expert but I thought shims came before screwing? I never heard of shimming something after it was screwed in place? would think using the level during placing would also install the shims? 

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3 hours ago, Paulsian said:

Seems neat they way they cut out the marked foundation but adding the rebar and concrete is little much

Well, yes. There's a whole genre of work simulators. Most of those you could replicate within Second Life, but they wouldn't be as good. We have GTFO, which is Truck Driving Simulator on easy mode. We have BeYou and some other farming simulator. So there's interest in work simulation within SL.

SL really should have game controller support, so you can steer properly. The controls don't have to be so coarse. I'd like to see more attention paid to making SL a better platform for games. It's mostly smoothing out the rough edges, not a redesign. Tim Sweeny, CEO of Epic, wrote on this subject recently. He says you need games in your metaverse so people have something to do when they're not socializing. He's right. "What do I do now" is one of the two big new user questions.

Edited by animats
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SL for me is a raw form of how games are created, behind the scenes. I think that's why I like it so much. What do I do now? Learn and learn and learn; to what end? 

Before SL I really had no idea how the content in games were created. I will never look at any game ever again the way I did before learning second life.

 

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20 hours ago, Paulsian said:

That's neat thanks for CSG info had no idea what something like that was called. Something like that would be neat

Oh yes, it's very neat.

I don't see it as the basis of an inworld building system though. CSG has its limits and you have to make some prims first before you can start cutting, joining and intersecting them. But if the performance issues can be solved, and I think they can, it could be very valuable tool to add to the toolbox.

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16 hours ago, animats said:

Tim Sweeny, CEO of Epic, wrote on this subject recently. He says you need games in your metaverse so people have something to do when they're not socializing. He's right.

Not necessarily games in the traditional sense but yes, it needs to be something more than just a social platform. The question is what does it need to add?

Second Life started as a building game. That's what attracted the early investors and what kept the early users occupied and happy. It's the early boost this gave SL that really has kept it alive ever since.

I'm not sure if it's a viable business model today. Back in 2002/2003 a reasonably detailed virtual reality was a novelty in itself and good content was hard to come by. Today the internet is crammed full of cheap and even free and open source meshes and textures, every bit as good as anything you're likely to see in SL. (Except for the performance/LOD issues of course but that's not something most SL creators can manage well either.)

Virtual reality has a bright future as a platform for games, education and "serious games" (design, scientific simulations, planning etc.) but the open metaverse concept does not because all these functions are usually better done in dedicated smaller and closed virtual environments.

This is the big challenge not only for Second Life but even more for the emerging metaverse wannabes. There's no real USP so for now they remain solutions looking for problems to solve.

Edited by ChinRey
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20 hours ago, Paulsian said:

already i do not like the moving landscaping barf, all the builder programs always do that, put a bunch of grass and trees swaying the same way for that reason I'm out will not purchase. 

I sooo agree with you there. But it's the same problem the builders who try to make vegetation with wind movement in SL faces: a realistic simulation of moving vegetation would require literally tens of thousands of independently moving components and that's far more than any cpu can possibly handle in real time. My solution, if I do vegetation movement at all, is to keep it very, very discreet - enough to add some extra life to the scene but subtle enough it won't annoy anybody.

 

20 hours ago, Paulsian said:

It looks like it's by the same creator that makes the home simulator programs. I can easily spot them via never ending moving landscaping.

It's by Live Motion Games, a fairly small Polish game manufacturer, and they don't have any home simulators - unless Chernobyl happens to be your home.

I'm not sure which home simulator programs you mean but the similarity may be because they're using the same game engine. The more I look at it, the more convinced it's Unigine and that engine is quite popular for simulations although it's never caught on among game developers.

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22 hours ago, animats said:

Tim Sweeny, CEO of Epic, wrote on this subject recently. He says you need games in your metaverse so people have something to do when they're not socializing. He's right. "What do I do now" is one of the two big new user questions.

Games alone will not work, it will have to be something that involves a team, team building, team work, a "game" player finder. Sorta like the wow dungeon finder. diablo really screwed up by messing up their original player finder. People just want to grind levels and try to find rare loot. Like horizons but multi player with loot drop chances for in world game upgrades and special loot drops that have random sl in world content. Maybe a way they can play the games with multiplayers on a linden home tv? I would not mind more classic style games for in world gaming (non gambling style) entertainment. 

 

Edited by Paulsian
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and then with some sort of multi player gaming system, residents can submit maps/dungeon to be added to the game and lindens can assign the loot drops. Maybe map building sandboxes with all the goodies. 

so need a queue system for waiting players (and for in a player has to leave in middle of a run a way to find a replacement quickly) and a gaming system to host games.

Why have a queue system for waiting players when we already have a friends list and groups lists. Those would work too, I like playing with new people some times same people but it's just neat meeting new people and seeing people already met. It's more organic jumping in a game and seeing people vs looking at a friends list. 

Edited by Paulsian
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It’d be nice to see a different home construction system built into SL. Possibly even allow people to build a house, customize it with their imported mesh and then sell the house as a prefab that a buyer can set on their land. The Lindens already control home design in their residential continents but with construction handled like this building simulator they could let residents build or modify their own homes and still retain a specific overall design for the neighborhoods. E.g. residents could build a house but are limited to to roofs, walls, windows and doors that are compatible with the neighborhood. 

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