New Performance Viewer Build

[junique Tigerfish]

On 5/23/2022 at 4:18 PM, Extrude Ragu said:

 

Sim crossings still suck, and at one point I ended up under the road http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Sutherfield/172/252/30  here and had to use someones furniture inside their house to escape from under the road - I then got stuck inside their house because the doors were locked!!

 

 

 

Lol,so funny.Sounds like something that would happen to me.I like the new viewer.No issues yet.I have no numbers,don't really know anything too technical.My head is spinning trying to absorb all this info.🙃

[Furholio]

hugh improvement 👍

[Paulsian]

last night I was getting some very strange lag and noticed the system water (I don't use transparent water settings I uncheck that box and I do the drop down for water at most minimal setting) it looked like the system water was shinny like metal shinny, it stopped when I uncheck the box for shinny and bump ? lag went away after that. Also noticed If i'm changing avatars in public it's not as quick to change I will stand there naked for a good 10 seconds before changes start happening (when changing out of human form and I have to run and hide to avoid looking like a streaker). Seems to be a strange freeze while traveling roads on foot strange delay at times, only noticed this type of slight delay/freeze with performance viewer.  Besides that seems zippy. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Paulsian

[Jackson Redstar]

On 5/13/2022 at 1:34 PM, Alexa Linden said:

Happy Friday! We've got a new Performance build out so give it a try! https://releasenotes.secondlife.com/viewer/6.6.0.571736.html… If you see any bugs, please file a https://jira.secondlife.com so we can take a look!

I really don't know what kind of vodoo magic is running in this build, but I was videoing an event and I was switching between FS and this viewer, trying to ensure my settings between viewers were rougly equal. With 22 avis at the event I was getting about 12 FPS on the Firestorm viewer and about 40-50 FPS on ths performace viewer

From the task manager it does look like the Performace viewer is using more cores on the CPU is that correct? What ever the case it performs rather well even in a crowded space

[Anicha Heartsong]

On 5/30/2022 at 5:26 PM, Furholio said:

hugh improvement 👍

Sounds like a good name for an alt. (Sorry, I have to trivialize things because I don't understand half of this thread)

[bigmoe Whitfield]

9 hours ago, Jackson Redstar said:

I really don't know what kind of vodoo magic is running in this build, but I was videoing an event and I was switching between FS and this viewer, trying to ensure my settings between viewers were rougly equal. With 22 avis at the event I was getting about 12 FPS on the Firestorm viewer and about 40-50 FPS on ths performace viewer

From the task manager it does look like the Performace viewer is using more cores on the CPU is that correct? What ever the case it performs rather well even in a crowded space

I would love to use that new viewer, but it needs the firestorm simple ui and the simple nice neat interface,  aka no chui! 

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

I would love to use that new viewer, but it needs the firestorm simple ui and the simple nice neat interface,  aka no chui! 

firestorm team probably working on it now, won't be too long

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

no chui! 

Is "chui" short for "chubby GUI"? "Changes-too-often GUI"? "Chewy GUI" (some tribute to Chewbacca)?

[Jackson Redstar]

1 hour ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

I would love to use that new viewer, but it needs the firestorm simple ui and the simple nice neat interface,  aka no chui! 

TBH, except for basic everyday things like walking around, that is really all the UI of the Linden viewer can handle. Just to video the event I was at I had to pull up the camsmoothing debug setting and manualy enter each time. Oh and no resynch function either. and can't manually input the 'feathering' for the 3D mouse, But lets hope this code gets to TPV soon

[Qie Niangao]

20 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Is "chui" short for "chubby GUI"? "Changes-too-often GUI"? "Chewy GUI" (some tribute to Chewbacca)?

Communications Hub User Interface since 2012. Every time I subject myself to Firestorm to check how other users see my stuff, I have to remind myself that there used to be this clumsy non-CHUI way to manage chats.

[Monty Linden]

12 hours ago, Jackson Redstar said:

From the task manager it does look like the Performace viewer is using more cores on the CPU is that correct?

That's a part of it.

[JeromFranzic]

16 hours ago, Jackson Redstar said:

I really don't know what kind of vodoo magic is running in this build, but I was videoing an event and I was switching between FS and this viewer, trying to ensure my settings between viewers were rougly equal. With 22 avis at the event I was getting about 12 FPS on the Firestorm viewer and about 40-50 FPS on ths performace viewer

From the task manager it does look like the Performace viewer is using more cores on the CPU is that correct? What ever the case it performs rather well even in a crowded space

Yep, noticed that too on my GTX 1050 laptop. I can get a few extra fps in some crowded spots in mid-high settings with shadows turned on. It's nice but it won't take me away from using Alchemy (or Catznip when I'm running Windows 11).

[Beq Janus]

21 hours ago, Jackson Redstar said:

I really don't know what kind of vodoo magic is running in this build, but I was videoing an event and I was switching between FS and this viewer, trying to ensure my settings between viewers were rougly equal. With 22 avis at the event I was getting about 12 FPS on the Firestorm viewer and about 40-50 FPS on ths performace viewer

From the task manager it does look like the Performace viewer is using more cores on the CPU is that correct? What ever the case it performs rather well even in a crowded space

The voodoo is extensive and the results are very pleasing. As Monty conforms, part of the boost is moving more things to threads, though TPVs had already done some of this work before, the LL work adds some extra offloading that is helpful. The biggest wins are undoubtedly in the handling of rigged mesh, I think you've followed some of my reports on the disruptive nature of segmented mesh bodies. Well the updates go a long way to resolving that by allowing many of those segments to be grouped together. Those bodies will still be slower but by nothing like the massive margin they are at present. This makes an enormous change in crowds scenes. 

We will of course being bringing these updates to you in Firestorm in due course, bear with us though. At the moment it is likely to be the release after next because we're currently trying to get things like code signing on Apple and other things sorted out. As soon as those are done the priority will be to get the Multi factor auth support out in the wild ASAP and then we can focus on hammering the lumps out of the Performance Improvements. If the former takes longer than expected then we may end up rolling them all together which is not very desirable from a support perspective as there are an awful lot of changes in the performance viewer (as you can tell) and we really want to make sure we are heavily tested on that before shipping. 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

@Monty Linden   sorry about not liking the interface for the LL viewer,  my vision is a bit wonky and the chui is my only problem with it and has been since viewer 2 was done the way it was.   

[NiranV Dean]

On 6/9/2022 at 2:37 PM, Qie Niangao said:

Communications Hub User Interface since 2012. Every time I subject myself to Firestorm to check how other users see my stuff, I have to remind myself that there used to be this clumsy non-CHUI way to manage chats.

The only thing clumsy is CHUI itself. It a devolution back to the horrid V1 system with extra steps.

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

The only thing clumsy is CHUI itself. It a devolution back to the horrid V1 system with extra steps.

We must be talking about different things. What I associate with Firestorm chat UI is mostly that very V1 single line text entry at the bottom of the screen and that old-timey unwindowed text scrolling over the display if there's no local chat already open to catch it. What pisses me off every time I use it, though, is the fact it won't open a chat tab with a press of Enter, but needs a Ctrl-H or pressing the "Nearby Chat" button. 

(Probably there are fifteen hidden settings to make these work differently, but it's much easier to choose a simpler viewer instead.)

What I understand to be "CHUI" is what I've gotten used to in the Linden and Catznip viewers, which to me is close enough to what I get in Firestorm eventually, after I finally convince it I really do want an actual chat window scout's honor no kidding for real now.

[Odaks]

We are very fortunate to have such a nice variety of viewers to use, and thanks to all the people behind these endeavours.

If you don't like a particular one, that's fine, just use a different one that you do like.

I'm not sure what benefit there is in slating a particular viewer for being [insert favourite insult here].

Don't be grumpy! We can do better than that, surely.

[NiranV Dean]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

We must be talking about different things. What I associate with Firestorm chat UI is mostly that very V1 single line text entry at the bottom of the screen and that old-timey unwindowed text scrolling over the display if there's no local chat already open to catch it. What pisses me off every time I use it, though, is the fact it won't open a chat tab with a press of Enter, but needs a Ctrl-H or pressing the "Nearby Chat" button. 

(Probably there are fifteen hidden settings to make these work differently, but it's much easier to choose a simpler viewer instead.)

What I understand to be "CHUI" is what I've gotten used to in the Linden and Catznip viewers, which to me is close enough to what I get in Firestorm eventually, after I finally convince it I really do want an actual chat window scout's honor no kidding for real now.

Might be just me getting used to my own Viewer over the years but as far as i know "Enter" has always opened local chat, even with CHUI. It just doesn't close it anymore. This MIGHT have changed now that they have custom keybindings, previously "Start Chat" was a keybind set to Enter. What's not in CHUI anymore is closing local chat with Enter (or defocusing it) both when its empty or after sending a message. There is no option in the official viewer that i'm aware of that would change this behavior. There is just one to have letter keys start chat (which makes using AWSD for movement impossible).

V1 Chat for me means a multitude of things, namely as you already said the "console" like local chat display, the horrid mix of local and IM chat in the very same console and the tabbed IM's.

V2 Chat was a massive improvement over this by separating out IMs to the other corner of the screen to clearly differentiate between them at the cost of mixing them with group chats (because they weren't as clearly separated as local and IM, they looked almost like IM chats which they should have improved), they also (in addition to tabbed) implemented a separate per-session floater IM style that made full use of the newly implemented chiclets which were a massive improvement when it came to having a quick glance at all your chats without cluttering the screen too much, once again groups could have been slightly better separated other than coloring them green (for whatever reason) but overall the chiclets and the separate windows which automatically hid themselves after they lost focus made the UI incredibly space saving while at the same time giving you a glance at all chats at all times. This was a massive improvement not only over V1 but also the current V3 (CHUI) chat and every other MMO that has just lazily implemented the same atrocious tabbed IM chat we see in CHUI (although MMO's have it fixed in a corner usually and force it to horizontal tabs which is even worse than vertical tabs).

V3 Chat is what we've got now, CHUI, which is essentially V1 Chat just betterworse. No IM/local mixing but several key features such as the aforementioned "Enter" can close chat missing.

Personally V2 was the best out of all of them. It solved all the issues the other two chats (and every other MMO) have and kept your screen free of unnecessary windows. It also included a tabbed IM chat for those who wanted it back. I don't understand why they didn't keep it and implemented CHUI into the tabbed IM option instead of getting rid of all the improvements they made.

 

CHUI is a sad story and a good example why LL should NOT listen to users. Especially those who do not use their Viewer to begin with. CHUI is the same tragic story we already saw with the sidebar. Just as it got good, they removed it because people who complained at the beginning and weren't even using the Viewer kept complaining about things that weren't even a problem anymore.

4 hours ago, Odaks said:

We are very fortunate to have such a nice variety of viewers to use, and thanks to all the people behind these endeavours.

If you don't like a particular one, that's fine, just use a different one that you do like.

I'm not sure what benefit there is in slating a particular viewer for being [insert favourite insult here].

Don't be grumpy! We can do better than that, surely.

The problem is that CHUI is in every V3 and up. This means we are not talking about a single Viewer but all of them.

Edited June 10, 2022 by NiranV Dean

[Qie Niangao]

This CHUI tangent is probably not great for the thread, but since I just spent 45 minutes in the Firestorm Preferences window, I'll report what I found in case it's useful. First, I was reminded of some terminology: the thing I called "single line text entry at the bottom of the screen" is the "chatbar". With the right combination of settings in Preferences / Chat / Typing, it can be made to come and go with the Enter key. What seems closest to what @NiranV Dean wants in getting it to hide on Enter is to enable "Autohide main chatbar" and "Deselect chat after sending a message" + "De-focus chat history as well" (although once that nearby chat window is open I don't know it can be convinced to hide on Enter). Without "Add a chat bar in the Nearby Chat window" it's maybe closer to separating local chat from IMs, especially with Prefs/Chat/Chat Windows / Show IMs in: "Separate windows" instead of "Tabs".

But we have completely different preferences here, and that particular setup would be a nightmare for me. I want all the chat stuff in a single window (which I guess is the "CHUI" ?) and no separate chatbar at all, all minimized and opened as a group unless I pull one out separately (very rare for me).

So of course I agree with @Odaks that if we "don't like a particular one, that's fine, just use a different one that you do like." And I certainly appreciate that the developers who work on these viewers invest a lot of time and effort to make valuable contributions to SL user experience. I have much respect for Firestorm developers—not least of all because all those preferences need to behave sensibly in every supported combination, defying the laws of feature interaction like defying the law of gravity.

And I'm sure with enough time in the Preferences window and enough time using any viewer exclusively, I could get around with it, too. Still, I'd like to think we could appreciate a substantial advance in the underlying codebase shared by all viewers, even before it has been adopted by a favorite.

[Henri Beauchamp]

12 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

V1 Chat for me means a multitude of things, namely as you already said the ”console” like local chat display, the horrid mix of local and IM chat in the very same console and the tabbed IM's.

This is just a configuration choice: you may perfectly keep IMs out of the chat and console (and yes, this is what I always did)... Note also that the Cool VL Viewer offers a great deal of configuration options for the chat and IM floaters (e.g. with or without a chat input line for the chat floater) and chat console.

Also, there are two kinds of ”v1 chats”: the v1.18.0 one, i.e. the ”good one” (the one I always have been using for the Cool VL Viewer) with separate Friends and Groups floaters, and no chat input line (v1 viewer have a separate chat input line, so you really do not need one in the chat floater), and the ruined v1.18.2 (first ”voice viewer”) ”chatterbox”, which is just as horrible as v2 and newer...

v2 chat is an horrendous thing that I thoroughly hate !... Each one their taste (or lack thereof)... 😛

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp

[NiranV Dean]

1 hour ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

This is just a configuration choice: you may perfectly keep IMs out of the chat and console (and yes, this is what I always did)... Note also that the Cool VL Viewer offers a great deal of configuration options for the chat and IM floaters (e.g. with or without a chat input line for the chat floater) and chat console.

Also, there are two kinds of ”v1 chats”: the v1.18.0 one, i.e. the ”good one” (the one I always have been using for the Cool VL Viewer) with separate Friends and Groups floaters, and no chat input line (v1 viewer have a separate chat input line, so you really do not need one in the chat floater), and the ruined v1.18.2 (first ”voice viewer”) ”chatterbox”, which is just as horrible as v2 and newer...

v2 chat is an horrendous thing that I thoroughly hate !... Each one their taste (or lack thereof)... 😛

 

Huh?
I mean its far over 10 years ago (voice was introduced roughly at the same time windlight was introduced, end of 2009 i think?) but i don't remember the chat changing at all back then. V1 chat has always been a fixed chat panel at the bottom (above the button panel) with console style floating text, a chat history button to the left of the chat bar (all of which only showed when starting to chat and automatically hid when sending chat). I'm unsure what you mean with separate Friends and Groups, as in both separated from each other (which to my knowledge has always been the case) or separated from the chat window? (only TPV's added the friendlist and groups to the chat window and i've always and still adamantly declined to do that as it makes no sense having a friendlist or grouplist in a chat window, regardless of double-click starting a conversation with the user/group in question)

I didn't know there was 2 V1 chats. For all i care they are equally bad because my problem wasn't with the changes you describe, it was with the general way of how IM chat works (e.g tabbed IMs and the local/IM mix, which as you say could be disabled and also colored to differentiate them better, which ultimately however was just polishing a turd). I like my chats separated, that is local and IM in two entirely different corners... group is a special case, i've always simply disabled group chat because it was annoying.

But yes, to each their own, i prefer cleanly separated chats (and to an extend messages) at the cost of more space being used (although i'm unsure you can even say it uses more space considering that it doesn't use the entire screen like V1 chat could if enabled), this is also why i like the V3 style "extended" chat history a lot more than the V1 style "compact" mode, it separates chatters and groups their messages together unless significant time has passed, unlike compact which puts the name in front of every messages. I've had people complain because i was bursting short messages and it was taking large amounts of space in their chat window... a problem of their own making i suppose... everything has ups and downs.

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

And I'm sure with enough time in the Preferences window and enough time using any viewer exclusively, I could get around with it, too. Still, I'd like to think we could appreciate a substantial advance in the underlying codebase shared by all viewers, even before it has been adopted by a favorite.

Hopes and dreams. First LL needs to stop being so antisocial, they need to come out more often and talk to us, rather than us always having to come to them and stalk them like a creep reminding them every day that we want to see some progress on a feature that we are willing to offer. I'd say we need more Lindens that use TPV's to see what we are actually doing and what people really like about each TPV, then have these people report back to LL so they get an idea what they might want to get from us.

Edited June 11, 2022 by NiranV Dean

[Extrude Ragu]

I actually prefer the Linden Chat UI simply because it can be folded down to take  less space

The firestorm one has these massive tabs on the left.. I think there's an option to have them over the top but then they are not all visible.

Big space waste going on here, means the Conversation window is often getting in the way of everything.

At least on the LL one you can  collapse this down to just people/group profile pictures. I really wish Firestorm had this

Unfortunately the default SL viewer can't be used in my sim because LL never added camera distance limit functionality or 3d parcels to LL so enforcing RLV viewers is the only way to get privacy in my sim. Not to mention all the developer stuff in Firestorm that I use on a daily basis anyway. Still, I hope one day we will get a better chat window.

[Henri Beauchamp]

22 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

I didn't know there was 2 V1 chats. For all i care they are equally bad because my problem wasn't with the changes you describe, it was with the general way of how IM chat works (e.g tabbed IMs and the local/IM mix, which as you say could be disabled and also colored to differentiate them better, which ultimately however was just polishing a turd). I like my chats separated, that is local and IM in two entirely different corners... group is a special case, i've always simply disabled group chat because it was annoying.

Once and for all: there is no such mix !

But better than words, here is a screen shot with a legend for the UI elements:

As a genuine role player, I make a clear distinction between chat (for In Character exchanges between avatars) and IMs (Out Of Character discussions between role-players), and separating the two kinds of textual exchanges is essential.

It should also be noted that the v1 UI is by far the one providing the best screen estate, with high information density and small floaters (unlike the super-cumbersome v2 UI floaters).

Edited June 12, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp
typos

[NiranV Dean]

On 6/11/2022 at 4:20 PM, Henri Beauchamp said:

Once and for all: there is no such mix !

In your Viewer. You said there is a 1.18.0 and post 1.18 V1 chat. 

It went like this:

Normal chat would be:

First Last: Text

Whereas IM's would be mixed in:

IM: First Last: Text

That's where all the fake IM text gestures come from. I saw a lot of people fall for it unless they colored IM chat (or later were using Viewer 2). I still see those gestures pop up from time to time. Don't have a picture of it (the earliest shots i still have are from 2009 which was when i switched to Kirstens Viewer and Viewer 2 already)

[Henri Beauchamp]

48 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

In your Viewer. You said there is a 1.18.0 and post 1.18 V1 chat. 

It went like this:

Normal chat would be:

First Last: Text

Whereas IM's would be mixed in:

IM: First Last: Text

Stop it, please... You are being thick. I do no tell you how your viewer works, please don't tell me how mine has been working for the past 15 years !...

NO, my viewer DOES NOT list ANY instant message in the chat history floater. It *may* list them in the chat console in the ”IM: First Last: Text” form, but this is just a configuration option (”Preferences” -> ”IM & Logs” -> ”Include IM in chat console”, and by the way this option did exist in v1.1x viewers as well.