Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes

[StarlanderGoods]

26 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

Would these be examples of personal attacks in posts leading to interpersonal disputes:

1. It's about time you started taking notes. 🤭

2. I can't believe y'all are grown ass men calling yourself "alpha men"

3. Google Dunning-Kruger effect. Because you are pulling stuff out of your posterior at this point, with great confidence.

4. Someone seems to have lost tract of their ridiculous posts.  ^^

It depends, if I tell you that the sun is an orb afixed to the firmament of our flat earth, in a very authoritative way, correcting you on your position of the earh being a globe and orbiting the sun.  And you tell me that I might not know as much as I think I do, are you attacking me?

You see, the big error in those examples, is that you picked them without context, they are personal in the sense that they are direct replies to another poster,

The first one reads as a joke, it was the answer to a jokey meme. 

The second one was a rebuttal to a really toxic pseud-scientific belief, bordering on eugenics about some people being genetically superior to others, scorn is earned, I think the rebuttal was tame.

  Your third example is from me, after repeated times asking the other poster to please read the source of the terms he was usingm if you know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is, this was a textbook definition of it.

The fourth one, I really dont know the full context, full disclosure, Im too lazy to re-read all the huge posts, sometimes people take the REALLY long way around to make a point and get lost in the weeds, Ill grant you that it could be phrased better.

This are all definitely examples of conflict and wether you consider them personal attcks depends a lot on your interpretation and your own values.  If you belive that civil discourse is more important than content, and that even the intolerant must be tolerated, then you will probably consider those four examples as personal attacks.

From my point of view, MAYBE the fourth example is a bit too personal, again, I do not remember the full context on that one. The rest of them look A-OK to me.

[Kathlen Onyx]

I think many times people forget that others are allowed to have an opinion and not be told it's wrong.  Much like feelings.

-Someone can be religiously and morally against abortion yet still support the freedom of others to do what they wish to their bodies.  

-Someone can believe that it's wrong for anyone to be anything other than male or female and still be opposed to those that have differing views being discriminated against, excluded or have hate crimes thrust upon them. They can accept your choices and still believe it's wrong.

What happens here on the forums people are expected to conform to the majority as though that is a sign that you are wrong. Posters use different tactics to guilt the other person for their opinion and use personal hammers to get them to change their minds saying things like:

-I am reporting you because I'm feeling bullied by your response

-You are another one on my block list. No one has to announce that. Just do it.

-I guess we all know now what a crap person you are. I'm pretty sure Mother Theresa would disagree with many opinions on this forum. 

-Here are all these statistics and articles that prove your opinion is wrong.

-You are a liberal/conservative and that means that I won't agree with anything you say. 

Posters here RARELY say you are entitled to your opinion and leave it at that.  Most often it's "let me prove to you your opinion is wrong" and that's when people start feeling like they have to defend their opinion when really it's not necessary at all.

A forum discussion is not meant to be a win or lose contest. That's why it's called a discussion.  

If someone is feeling bullied on the internet - specifically this forum, then that is their right to feel that way. I suggest that they remove themselves from the discussion at that point and close out the forum or the thread. There is no law or rule that forces you to participate in a discussion that is causing you to feel bullied. 

Let's face it. Everyone that participates in the tit for tat posting on any thread in the forum knows exactly what they are doing. No one group or person gets a thread closed because people have the choice to simply ignore the post. 

Whomever said that silence is acceptance, well that's just BS.  Not once have I thought well, so and so hasn't posted a rebuttal or response so they must agree with what is said. Not once. 

Personal disputes happen in every media, Twitter, Facebook, Forums and it's not likely to change due to the fact that everyone is anonymous and everyone has a unique opinion that not everyone, not even perhaps the majority, will agree with all the time.

I'll end this by saying that for once I am thankful I am the age I am because if I were 20 years old, the rate that technology is evolving I can only see this going from bad to worse and it's too far gone to put back in the box.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I think many times people forget that others are allowed to have an opinion and not be told it's wrong.  Much like feelings.

-Someone can be religiously and morally against abortion yet still support the freedom of others to do what they wish to their bodies.  

-Someone can believe that it's wrong for anyone to be anything other than male or female and still be opposed to those that have differing views being discriminated against, excluded or have hate crimes thrust upon them. They can accept your choices and still believe it's wrong.

What happens here on the forums people are expected to conform to the majority as though that is a sign that you are wrong. Posters use different tactics to guilt the other person for their opinion and use personal hammers to get them to change their minds saying things like:

-I am reporting you because I'm feeling bullied by your response

-You are another one on my block list. No one has to announce that. Just do it.

-I guess we all know now what a crap person you are. I'm pretty sure Mother Theresa would disagree with many opinions on this forum. 

-Here are all these statistics and articles that prove your opinion is wrong.

-You are a liberal/conservative and that means that I won't agree with anything you say. 

Posters here RARELY say you are entitled to your opinion and leave it at that.  Most often it's "let me prove to you your opinion is wrong" and that's when people start feeling like they have to defend their opinion when really it's not necessary at all.

A forum discussion is not meant to be a win or lose contest. That's why it's called a discussion.  

If someone is feeling bullied on the internet - specifically this forum, then that is their right to feel that way. I suggest that they remove themselves from the discussion at that point and close out the forum or the thread. There is no law or rule that forces you to participate in a discussion that is causing you to feel bullied. 

Let's face it. Everyone that participates in the tit for tat posting on any thread in the forum knows exactly what they are doing. No one group or person gets a thread closed because people have the choice to simply ignore the post. 

Whomever said that silence is acceptance, well that's just BS.  Not once have I thought well, so and so hasn't posted a rebuttal or response so they must agree with what is said. Not once. 

Personal disputes happen in every media, Twitter, Facebook, Forums and it's not likely to change due to the fact that everyone is anonymous and everyone has a unique opinion that not everyone, not even perhaps the majority, will agree with all the time.

I'll end this by saying that for once I am thankful I am the age I am because if I were 20 years old, the rate that technology is evolving I can only see this going from bad to worse and it's too far gone to put back in the box.  

Well said!

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, StarlanderGoods said:

It depends, if I tell you that the sun is an orb afixed to the firmament of our flat earth, in a very authoritative way, correcting you on your position of the earh being a globe and orbiting the sun.  And you tell me that I might not know as much as I think I do, are you attacking me?

You see, the big error in those examples, is that you picked them without context, they are personal in the sense that they are direct replies to another poster,

The first one reads as a joke, it was the answer to a jokey meme. 

The second one was a rebuttal to a really toxic pseud-scientific belief, bordering on eugenics about some people being genetically superior to others, scorn is earned, I think the rebuttal was tame.

  Your third example is from me, after repeated times asking the other poster to please read the source of the terms he was usingm if you know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is, this was a textbook definition of it.

The fourth one, I really dont know the full context, full disclosure, Im too lazy to re-read all the huge posts, sometimes people take the REALLY long way around to make a point and get lost in the weeds, Ill grant you that it could be phrased better.

This are all definitely examples of conflict and wether you consider them personal attcks depends a lot on your interpretation and your own values.  If you belive that civil discourse is more important than content, and that even the intolerant must be tolerated, then you will probably consider those four examples as personal attacks.

From my point of view, MAYBE the fourth example is a bit too personal, again, I do not remember the full context on that one. The rest of them look A-OK to me.

Yes, #4 was personal.  He was replying to a different thread.  One he had also been involved in.  He'd forgotten where he was posting.  

Edited April 24, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Persephone Emerald]

7 hours ago, Randall Ahren said:

Would these be examples of personal attacks in posts leading to interpersonal disputes:

1. It's about time you started taking notes. 🤭

2. I can't believe y'all are grown ass men calling yourself "alpha men"

3. Google Dunning-Kruger effect. Because you are pulling stuff out of your posterior at this point, with great confidence.

4. Someone seems to have lost tract of their ridiculous posts.  ^^

In my opinion,

# 1 seemed funny to me, not really insulting.

# 2 seemed justified, because one should not call oneself an alpha, an elder of a community, a prophet, a matriarch or patriarch of a family, wise, or enlightened. If one has to inflate one's ego by calling himself an "alpha male", he's not much of an alpha.

# 3 seems like a personal attack that adds nothing to the discourse. Citing the Dunning-Kruger effect implies that the other person is too ignorant to know that they're ignorant. 

#4 was justified in telling the poster that they'd lost track of their posts, as it was a response to a post in another thread. Calling all of their posts ridiculous was probably overstepping forum etiquette and could be construed as a personal attack.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Persephone Emerald]

Telling someone that you think their opinion is wrong is a normal part of a debate. It does not impinge upon my free speech if someone says they disagree with me, nor does it impinge upon their free speech if I say I disagree with them. Citing examples for why one believes they're right and the other person is wrong is also a normal part of a debate. Debate is what I'm talking about here, not just arguing. In a debate both sides strive to make a convincing argument that their opinion is better than the other side's opinion. One side may not convince the other, but the audience will usually be pulled to one side or the other.

An argument on the other hard, is just telling each other you're wrong, putting each other down and calling each other names.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, opinions and feelings. In a free society this doesn't mean that everyone is entitled to say whatever they think without others also being free to tell them they think they're wrong.

Unless forum rules dictate otherwise, I think an honest debate of ideas would be perfectly acceptable behavior on most internet forums.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Telling someone that you think their opinion is wrong is a normal part of a debate. It does not impinge upon my free speech if someone says they disagree with me, nor does it impinge upon their free speech if I say I disagree with them. Citing examples for why one believes they're right and the other person is wrong is also a normal part of a debate. Debate is what I'm talking about here, not just arguing. In a debate both sides strive to make a convincing argument that their opinion is better than the other side's opinion. One side may not convince the other, but the audience will usually be pulled to one side or the other.

When I was in school, debates were won (in debate contests) by those with the best and most cited references - unfortunately even if they were sometimes the most ridiculous. 

[JuliaFina]

8 hours ago, StarlanderGoods said:

You see, the big error in those examples, is that you picked them without context, they are personal in the sense that they are direct replies to another poster,

 

That happens a lot.  Something like this:

Joe. "I am a duck in real life."

Mary "You don't have to tell anyone you are a duck. It's no ones business!"

Joe quickly takes screen shots of only Mary's reply and not what Mary was responding to and posts this:

Hey look everybody Mary is claiming I'm a duck ! Mary posted ""You don't have to tell anyone you are a duck!"

Totally changed the meaning and intent of what was posted by showing only the response and not what was being responded to. Made up a context and a false narrative. I have no idea if something like this is intentional or not. People misread meanings in text based communications a lot. Without clues like facial expressions and vocal pitch, scientists have said text based communication methods get misread a lot. Meanings completely missed. 

I was watching that tv show where people try to marry people from other counties where they don't know each others language and so they use translators on their cell phones to talk. It's a mess. Three different couples almost broke up due to miscommunications. It was only when they got a living person to translate for them that they made up. They finally understood what the other person was trying to say. 

 

 

[AnthonyJoanne]

A very interesting thread :)

A couple of weeks ago, on a gaming forum, I posted something pertaining to the actions of the publisher of the game in question.

I should note that the majority of people who responded did so positively ... they either agreed with me, or disagreed politely and engaged the argument I had made.

Some, however, reacted very differently. The phrase "frothing at the mouth" comes to mind. I found myself wondering why? This is the result of my deliberations:

It seems that some people on the net (and sadly in RL) are simply incapable of having discussions in good-faith. Why is that?

As has been noted previously in this thread by both @Orwar and @Lindal Kidd ... ambiguity is quite possible in short statements. So I tend to be somewhat obsessive about spelling out my arguments in detail so as to avoid that kind of ambiguity. Especially when discussing something complex, nuanced, or contentious.

Yet these days we live in a world where, for some reason, otherwise intelligent people pay attention to twitter and headlines (without reading the actual article) and believe themselves well-informed. Where hashtags are considered meaningful. These are not the way to become informed. Nor, I should point out, are any of the mainstream media sources ... all of whom have been shown to be little more than clickbait and echo chambers. When was the last time a mainstream media source gave you the links to their sources?

If you really want to understand a complex or important issue, you are going to have to do your own research. But very few people seem willing to do so these days.

As a result, I believe, we see people adopt positions which they cannot defend because they are actually uninformed on the subject at hand, and therefore their only option for response is personal attack.

And that is why, I think, we are seeing an increase in interpersonal disputes.

[JuliaFina]

8 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I think many times people forget that others are allowed to have an opinion and not be told it's wrong. 

Depends what the opinion is. If someone has the opinion I'm doing bad things and am a bad person for example, they are not allowed to post opinions like that on the forums here. It is against the TOS. (It's also defamation of character in rl and you can be sued for it) Someone can of course have an opinion like that all they want. People can think whatever they want in life. But if they post bad opinions about others online, it's the wrong place for it. Like a mod posted, if you have a problem with somebody IM them and talk it out. Try to fix it. Or just stop engaging with them. 

Everybody here is no different from your daughter, your mother, your son, your father, your grandmother and grandfather. Just because it's  online does not mean you should not talk to people like you do in real life. Everyone should be treated like they are a member of your family. But yea I don't talk to some members of my family lol. But I don't engage or argue with them either. Live and let live. We are all stuck together on the same planet until we leave these bodies and go somewhere else. It's really about understanding the other persons point of view. Listening more than talking sometimes. Understanding is superior to judging. Everyone is trying to go through life and trying to keep it all together as lights sings in her song i_o & Lights - Drift Away. Nobody has an easy life. Adding conflict with others, why add that to already stressful lives? Just love everybody.  

The easiest way to never be told you are wrong is to never claim you are right. 

[JuliaFina]

9 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

If someone is feeling bullied on the internet - specifically this forum, then that is their right to feel that way. I suggest that they remove themselves from the discussion at that point and close out the forum or the thread. There is no law or rule that forces you to participate in a discussion that is causing you to feel bullied. 

No one should ever feel bullied on a forum anywhere. That's my opinion. Why try to normalize such a thing?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, JuliaFina said:

9 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

If someone is feeling bullied on the internet - specifically this forum, then that is their right to feel that way. I suggest that they remove themselves from the discussion at that point and close out the forum or the thread. There is no law or rule that forces you to participate in a discussion that is causing you to feel bullied. 

No one should ever feel bullied on a forum anywhere. That's my opinion. Why try to normalize such a thing?

There is a difference between "feeling" bullied (perception that someone is bullying you) and "being" bullied (someone deliberately intended to bully you).

 

My own belief is that no one can legitimately tell you "how to feel", period. You feel how you feel.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

People often form lasting opinions of others based on their initial encounters with them (which is why everyone makes such a big deal about the concept of "first impressions" and how important they are) and it's an invaluable tool when dealing with large numbers of people as a lot of people do in modern life.

The problem is the internet has effectively increased the number of people we deal with exponentially, to the point where it's almost impossible to afford anyone more than a brief precursory glance before engaging with them.

Perhaps as online communication becomes more and more ingrained into our culture people will come to realise that while in real life there are very real dangers that we're instinctively trying to predict by evaluating things on face value, when dealing with people on the internet there's very little need to form a first impression, and certainly no reason to voice it.

[JuliaFina]

19 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

There is a difference between "feeling" bullied (perception that someone is bullying you) and "being" bullied (someone deliberately intended to bully you).

 

My own belief is that no one can legitimately tell you "how to feel", period. You feel how you feel.

Yes true. It's so sad what has happened to some young people bullied online. I think it's worse for some of the people with millions of followers. Those stories often end in a very bad way. I don't think young people can deal with the bullying like older people may be able to. 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

54 minutes ago, JuliaFina said:

If someone has the opinion I'm doing bad things and am a bad person for example, they are not allowed to post opinions like that on the forums here.

I think part of the issue with peoples perception of what constitutes bullying lies in the distinction between the two opinions you mention here (italics and bolding added for emphasis).

People often equate being told that something they've done (or are doing) is wrong with the implication that they're a bad person for doing it.

I agree that nobody should be posting their negative opinions about others on these forums, but there's a pretty big difference between believing that someones actions or opinion is wrong and implying that they're a bad person, and those that can't make that distinction will often see bullying where in reality there are just differing opinions.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I agree that nobody should be posting their negative opinions about others on these forums, but there's a pretty big difference between believing that someones actions or opinion is wrong and implying that they're a bad person, and those that can't make that distinction will often see bullying where in reality there are just differing opinions.

Kind of like "feeling" bullied vs. "being" bullied!

[AnthonyJoanne]

8 minutes ago, JuliaFina said:

No one should ever feel bullied on a forum anywhere.

I guess the problem is 'feel'. It seems that we (collectively, as a society) are spending more and more time worrying about people who 'feel' things ... regardless of whether or not it's rational for them to feel that.

I have had discussions online with people who claimed that they felt bullied based solely on the fact that I was disagreeing with them. Now I have to stress that my interactions with them were polite and detailed, as I tend to the wall of text approach, so as to make very clear what I'm trying to say.

I swear that it is true that one interlocutor actually accused me of trying to intimidate her by typing in long, detailed, replies.

As an aside ... I have to admit, since then I've wondered if it's possible to wall-of-text someone into submission

While it's a nice principal that no one should ever feel bullied ... I think a better way of saying it is that no one should ever BE bullied. Because there ARE people who, for whatever reason, will claim to feeling bullied at the drop of a hat.

Let me put it this way: I've just disagreed with you. I believe that I have done so politely and I certainly have no intention to make you feel bad or to do any damage to you whatsoever. Nor am I trying to bludgeon you into agreeing with me.

If, however, as a result of this interaction you felt bullied ... should I be held responsible for it?

 

I should add an addendum for clarity ... solely so that you fully understand my perspective:

I initially got access to the 'net in the 80's via academia. Back then usenet was the way we communicated. And in some corners of usenet flaming was considered an art form. We could, and did, hurl vitriolic insults at each other ... not for the sake of hurting each other's feelings, but because it was creative and amusing for all involved. Implicit in the exchange was that you needed to be an adult and to remember that it wasn't serious.

I was very good at it. As a result I have been the recipient of insults which, today, would figuratively melt the fibre optics.

I also spent six years in the military.

So I have a very thick skin.  I try to be sensitive to the fact that other people may not be so equipped, but I persist in the belief some people are just too sensitive.

[Kalegthepsionicist]

On 4/23/2022 at 2:59 AM, Arielle Popstar said:

Thought this might be a good topic as I had to actually look up what an Interpersonal dispute is and how it differs from normal forum discussions. I noted that even after we were warned about them, several posters continued anyway while others upvoted the posts, leading me to wonder if others were also maybe somewhat confused about what they are and how to not initiate or engage in them.

“Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom. Mastering others is strength; mastering yourself is true power.”

thats my guidance, to deal with personal dispute

Edited April 24, 2022 by Kalegthepsionicist

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Kind of like "feeling" bullied vs. "being" bullied!

Pretty much, and to be fair it's not hard to also subtly imply that somebody is a bad person for their actions or the opinions they hold when expressing an opposing opinion and there are times when people can be a little antagonistic in their responses so the line can sometimes get a little blurry.

While voicing negative opinions of others is not allowed on the forums, they've never really bothered me anyway since for an opinion to have merit it must be based on fact and not assumption, so the only opinions about me that really matter to me are those of the people that know me.

[Robberinthemuseum]

Well I grew up getting ROASTED! It was hilarious. Also, I'm Irish. I think it might be cultural. I would say more than 50% of the time I have no idea why mild ribbing for me is bullying for others. And then sometimes I feel people really step over the line with others being overly serious and bring everyone down, but everyone else seems okay with that. So I don't know. It's a tough one. I like everyone on here and enjoy our interactions. I haven't blocked anyone 😜

[Kalegthepsionicist]

12 hours ago, Randall Ahren said:

Would these be examples of personal attacks in posts leading to interpersonal disputes:

1. It's about time you started taking notes. 🤭

2. I can't believe y'all are grown ass men calling yourself "alpha men"

3. Google Dunning-Kruger effect. Because you are pulling stuff out of your posterior at this point, with great confidence.

4. Someone seems to have lost tract of their ridiculous posts.  ^^

imho

actually if you triple C

they dont like you. They want you to get 

emotionally affected,.

personally

I am too CCC , so nobody can make me mad

except for something that related to L$

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Kalegthepsionicist

[Love Zhaoying]

17 minutes ago, Robberinthemuseum said:

Well I grew up getting ROASTED! It was hilarious. Also, I'm Irish. I think it might be cultural. I would say more than 50% of the time I have no idea why mild ribbing for me is bullying for others. And then sometimes I feel people really step over the line with others being overly serious and bring everyone down, but everyone else seems okay with that. So I don't know. It's a tough one. I like everyone on here and enjoy our interactions. I haven't blocked anyone 😜

I don't doubt it's cultural, met some on SL from certain countries who were brutal and thought it funny (jokes about AIDS, etc.).

[Kalegthepsionicist]

11 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

How about a little context before we go off the deep end.

 

If people don't want other people to play off their jokes, they shouldn't post them. 

I dont feel that as a personal attack, I like the respond ,

LoL its funny

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Kalegthepsionicist said:

actually if you triple C

they dont like you. They want you to get 

emotionally affected,.

personally

I am too CCC , so nobody can make me mad

CCC? Can you please tell what that means?

Che Guevara, Celine Dione, Cameron Diaz? 

[Robberinthemuseum]

15 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I don't doubt it's cultural, met some on SL from certain countries who were brutal and thought it funny (jokes about AIDS, etc.).

Yeah I don't find aids very funny either. I usually can't help myself when someone obviously feels superior to others. I just want to poke at them haha. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Robberinthemuseum