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I do not know where to rant this, but I shall try here. I wonder how many residents of Second Life goes to a show where supposedly someone is a musician, but what constitutes a Musician?. The reason I ask this is: I am a real life/second life musician. To me a musician is a person who plays a instrument and sings live rather it be at home or in a studio. I have heard plenty of strummer's and hummers who belong in a coffee shop, or at a Ren-faire. Do we consider these as real musicians or just people who thinks strumming a acoustic guitar, and with a tone deaf voice try to belt out ACDC, or Pink Floyd.  There is a hand full of strummer,s who are pretty good I give them that.  Or is live music someone who keys up a back track on their computer with a program called Butt, and with a loud microphone, and so much echo and reverb they drown their voice into a recording of what ever?. Or is a "REAL" Musician someone who has a life time of performing with many bands and now semi retired? The reason for this rant and or thoughts is simple.. I am that Musician, a semi retired pro performing with a real live band who plays in a studio, I have a home studio with thousands invested between instruments, computers, microphones, software, and professional wireless equipment.  The band I perform with is a real professional cover band, they perform from a studio we do our shows on jam kazzam(like zoom but for musicians). We do a hour and half to two hours of music like you would go to a real life concert in a stadium or club. We don't do all this chattering that most who call themselves musicians here in second life. We spend big money for copy-writes, to be able to perform legit. There is public performance licenses, and so much involved in a two hour production of one of our shows.   I do not get where a strummer and hummer as I call them, or coffee shop acoustic amateur person thinks they can come to a show and critique a wild rock show. So maybe what I/We as a band do is not your cup of tea, none-the less a true musician would know a live show if they heard one. And further more.... all this coffee shop music, why do they have to talk so much?, is it that people want that personal connection? So they feel special that the person on that prim stage called out their name?.  I heard one karaoke singer sing 4 songs and spent the rest of the time talking about herself(no names mentioned to protect the guilty). Who they hell wants to go to a show and listen to someone talk about themself for a half hour, I wanna hear music. Also requests that,s okay for a coffee shop musician performer, BUT would you go to a live rock concert and ask Mick Jagger, or Steven Tyler or even Slash to do such and such song.. Hell no!!, they are to busy doing their routines, and also trying to listen to the musicians in their bands.... Yes there is some communication with the audience, but mostly just to fill empty spaces and time... so they can wipe the sweat off or get a drink or change instruments.  So if you think a ren fare, or coffee shop, or karaoke singer  is a true musician think again ... I know everyone is different and have different tastes, but don't go criticize a hard working rock musician, because you didn't get your name called out.. That band is the one who is important at that moment,to give the fans and audience a good time and show. Okay enough of my rant.. You wish to know more then contact me... OksanaSedia... One of  Shakespeare's most famous lines: "If music be the food of love, play on."  Rock On and be well... Oksana

Edited by OksanaSedia
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I think your rant is elitist, frankly. A "real" musician is someone who plays or sings music. Some musicians are better than others. Some sing or play for enjoyment, others make their living from music.

A lot of very famous names in music got their start from playing in coffee houses. So what?

Darn few Second Life musicians have "thousands of dollars" of equipment, the SL live music market is about as low paying as it gets. You'd make more money busking at the nearest metro station. Again...so what?

Do what you love, love what you do. If that's music, so much the better.

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As someone that's had to endure a lifetime of being told that "digital art isn't real art because you're using a computer not a paint brush!" I've learned the value of approaching the question of what is and isn't art from the perspective that art is subjective and as long as the end result is appreciated by somebody (even if it's only the artist that creates it) then it is effectively "art".

You're obviously a little frustrated and upset over the idea that the definition of what constitutes an artist is too vague, but I suggest that you try to embrace the idea that everyone is allowed to define for themselves who's qualified to refer to themselves as an artist, otherwise when you encounter people who believe that cover bands aren't "real musicians" because they're just copying what someone else has done you're going to get really frustrated and upset. :(

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I don't get the rant. I'm also not going to tackle the "what's a true musician?" question because the same can be asked of anything. Is a writer who writes blog copy a real/true writer, or is it only a best-selling novelist that has the right to that title? Is a person who knits and sells handmade items on Etsy a true crafter, or only someone who sells live at craft fairs and runs their own RL shop? Is a digital artist a true artist? Is a person who mastered the art of DIY and makes his or her own daily wardrobe from scratch a true fashion designer? Hard to answer any of that.

I will say, as far as the "coffee shop" style conversational performance goes, that's a thing in real life, as well. Some artists absolutely love and thrive in an environment where they can bond with very tiny audiences in small, intimate venues - telling stories and taking requests - while others prefer the massive open stages you'll find at popular music festivals. And critiquing bands - well, even the most tone deaf fans tend to do that when they attend concerts. Everybody's got an opinion.

Speaking of which, my *personal* opinion is someone does not require thousands of dollars worth of professional musical instruments and pro-equipment to consider themselves a musician. I've heard some amazing musicians that made magic on nothing but a handful of daily household items. Or toy instruments, even. 🤷‍♀️

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36 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

I do not know where to rant this, but I shall try here. I wonder how many residents of Second Life goes to a show where supposedly someone is a musician, but what constitutes a Musician?. The reason I ask this is: I am a real life/second life musician. To me a musician is a person who plays a instrument and sings live rather it be at home or in a studio. I have heard plenty of strummer's and hummers who belong in a coffee shop, or at a Ren-faire. Do we consider these as real musicians or just people who thinks strumming a acoustic guitar, and with a tone deaf voice try to belt out ACDC, or Pink Floyd.  There is a hand full of strummer,s who are pretty good I give them that.  Or is live music someone who keys up a back track on their computer with a program called Butt, and with a loud microphone, and so much echo and reverb they drown their voice into a recording of what ever?. Or is a "REAL" Musician someone who has a life time of performing with many bands and now semi retired? The reason for this rant and or thoughts is simple.. I am that Musician, a semi retired pro performing with a real live band who plays in a studio, I have a home studio with thousands invested between instruments, computers, microphones, software, and professional wireless equipment.  The band I perform with is a real professional cover band, they perform from a studio we do our shows on jam kazzam(like zoom but for musicians). We do a hour and half to two hours of music like you would go to a real life concert in a stadium or club. We don't do all this chattering that most who call themselves musicians here in second life. We spend big money for copy-writes, to be able to perform legit. There is public performance licenses, and so much involved in a two hour production of one of our shows.   I do not get where a strummer and hummer as I call them, or coffee shop acoustic amateur person thinks they can come to a show and critique a wild rock show. So maybe what I/We as a band do is not your cup of tea, none-the less a true musician would know a live show if they heard one. And further more.... all this coffee shop music, why do they have to talk so much?, is it that people want that personal connection? So they feel special that the person on that prim stage called out their name?.  I heard one karaoke singer sing 4 songs and spent the rest of the time talking about herself(no names mentioned to protect the guilty). Who they hell wants to go to a show and listen to someone talk about themself for a half hour, I wanna hear music. Also requests that,s okay for a coffee shop musician performer, BUT would you go to a live rock concert and ask Mick Jagger, or Steven Tyler or even Slash to do such and such song.. Hell no!!, they are to busy doing their routines, and also trying to listen to the musicians in their bands.... Yes there is some communication with the audience, but mostly just to fill empty spaces and time... so they can wipe the sweat off or get a drink or change instruments.  So if you think a ren fare, or coffee shop, or karaoke singer  is a true musician think again ... I know everyone is different and have different tastes, but don't go criticize a hard working rock musician, because you didn't get your name called out.. That band is the one who is important at that moment,to give the fans and audience a good time and show. Okay enough of my rant.. You wish to know more then contact me... OksanaSedia... One of  Shakespeare's most famous lines: "If music be the food of love, play on."  Rock On and be well... Oksana

(quoted, only because I like to ensure that OPs are preserved as they were originally written)

Big wall of text that all blurs together before getting to the end of a rant by someone that seems to be upset because they aren't getting enough gigs in SL or they aren't making the kind of money that they hoped/expected to make in SL, and thus decided to knock down those that they think are stealing their gigs.

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32 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

true musician
coffee shop musician

i think a = between those two gives both the right place.
I do like professional concerts a lót, really...
But.. like in this time of year, i prefer a amateur orchestra and choir ten times more when they sing the Matheus Passion than a soulles professional who played the thing 20 times already this month and has nothing but a routine showing to the listeners. You think Bach never played a wrong note? 

Yes there are mediocre musicians, but also in rl. If people like what they do, let them enjoy it, as you do with your professional team and equipment.
I think there are more amateurs loving their performance, because they like to be there. With some professionals i often feel they háve to be there.

 

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56 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

I do not know where to rant this, but I shall try here. I wonder how many residents of Second Life goes to a show where supposedly someone is a musician, but what constitutes a Musician?. The reason I ask this is: I am a real life/second life musician. To me a musician is a person who plays a instrument and sings live rather it be at home or in a studio.

I have heard plenty of strummer's and hummers who belong in a coffee shop, or at a Ren-faire. Do we consider these as real musicians or just people who thinks strumming a acoustic guitar, and with a tone deaf voice try to belt out ACDC, or Pink Floyd.  There is a hand full of strummer,s who are pretty good I give them that. 

Or is live music someone who keys up a back track on their computer with a program called Butt, and with a loud microphone, and so much echo and reverb they drown their voice into a recording of what ever?. Or is a "REAL" Musician someone who has a life time of performing with many bands and now semi retired?

What constitutes a 'musician' in the most basic form is "A  person who composes, conducts, or performs music."

This may come in many forms, many levels of talent, and in many creative ways.

Just like we can still have fun at the random coffee shop listening to people of different talents (from novice to recording artist level), or drink some beer and listen to Bob belt out "Welcome To The Jungle" when he probably shouldn't - is all part of the fun and instead of worrying whether it is 'musicianship' or not, is to give it the respect it should in Second Life terms as 'entertainment'.

There is something to be said for letting people just perform at whatever level, as it can go a long way to boost their confidence, open up more, and will most likely improve (if that's their goal).

I started off as a vocalist in the bathroom, was overheard by a roommate, and said "You need to go to Karaoke", then some Karaoke as I improved confidence until someone got pissed off at me and said "You don't belong here! Karaoke is for people to have fun!" which was a signal to move up to going to jam sessions in bars, then eventually to a full band and gigs.

All along the way, there was always someone saying "What's he doing here, what's he doing" as there is always someone either with good intentions or otherwise thinking you could do better or are 'not good enough' etc.

Since I have experienced that attitude myself, I have grown into a person who has advocated creativity for everyone at all levels,  and when running jam sessions to give everyone a chance, and understand they could be the next up-and-comer. It's also fun to get a variety of talents on voice or instruments anyway, rather than the same guitar virtuoso who wants to hog the stage :D

It doesn't mean I want to hear everyone in SL that performs, but I support them in doing so, as it makes Second Life all that more fun - people can take or leave their performance, but at least it's there if one wants to listen.

56 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

I am that Musician, a semi retired pro performing with a real live band who plays in a studio, I have a home studio with thousands invested between instruments, computers, microphones, software, and professional wireless equipment.  The band I perform with is a real professional cover band, they perform from a studio we do our shows on jam kazzam(like zoom but for musicians). We do a hour and half to two hours of music like you would go to a real life concert in a stadium or club. We don't do all this chattering that most who call themselves musicians here in second life. We spend big money for copy-writes, to be able to perform legit. There is public performance licenses, and so much involved in a two hour production of one of our shows.  

I know fellow 'musicians' that would claim that cover bands are not musicians either - they scoff at those who do covers. They may also say "They're not real musicians, they're just playing someone else's music. Dude is just role-playing Eddie Van Halen"

What would you say to that if you were subjected to the same judgement that you might be to others? Because you could be...

I've also known many 'gear heads' we call them - who have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on studio equipment - worked with some of them personally, yet they can't even write a song if it saved their life. These same types have even judged me for NOT having expensive guitars, equipment - and their judgement might be based on some envy that even without official music training (self-taught), and even without expensive music equipment ($800 max guitar) and even without expensive studio equipment (DAW + audio Interface + speakers), or lacking equipment they believe a vocalist should have (PA). It must aggravate them to no end that just I and an acoustic guitar can write, record and perform songs all by my lonesome - and with relatively little investment.

Even as a vocalist for a few original music bands (I've also jumped into cover bands as well), there is always a more experienced musician/band or more successful musician/band that would be judging us and saying the same thing as you are. "What are they doing, why are they here", and it's just music snobbery really in the end.

As I was also on a journey to my own music goals, I was fortunate to be able to play with, jam with and work with many different types of musicians, even some who were already recording artists,  or also on their way (and others who went to the top) because in large part our community was very welcoming of all would-be artists of varying levels and much fun was had as a result.

56 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

I do not get where a strummer and hummer as I call them, or coffee shop acoustic amateur person thinks they can come to a show and critique a wild rock show. So maybe what I/We as a band do is not your cup of tea, none-the less a true musician would know a live show if they heard one.

One does not have to be a musician to be a critic of music. That is our audience, and to please them is what is best to do. It is always best to remain humble and open to criticism (which is based on a solid and true confidence in one's talents and shortcomings) and learn from what they say.

I used to hate when people might mention "you sound like so-and-so vocalist, so-and-so-band" which you can can take the wrong way when you're trying to forge an original sound for yourself or your band - but then you find out that's the only way they can communicate to you, and it's actually a compliment. A less-stable person might take it as a harsh criticism, but if you're well-rounded you can step back and see if the criticism has merit or not.

Believe me. Don't get angry at feedback, criticism or comments - it's better than apathy, and any feedback is better than NO feedback.

56 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

And further more.... all this coffee shop music, why do they have to talk so much?, is it that people want that personal connection? So they feel special that the person on that prim stage called out their name?.  I heard one karaoke singer sing 4 songs and sent the rest of the time talking about herself(no names mentioned to protect the guilty) Who they hell wants to go to a show and listen to someone talk about themself for a half hour I wanna hear music and also requests that,s okay for a coffee shop musician performer, BUT would you go to a live rock concert and ask Mick Jagger, or Steven Tyler or even Slash to do such and such song.. Hell no!!, they are to busy doing their routines, and also trying to listen to the musicians in their bands.... Yes there is some communication with the audience, but mostly just to fill empty spaces and time... 

Some people talk, other people don't. One person may not like such a thing and wish "Just get on with it and play something else!" and others won't have a problem with it. If the attendees are having fun engaging with the performer, and the chit chat and back and forth is working,  why not let it be?

There are many times in coffee shops where you may have an "In The Round" type of performance from recording artists or amateur local musicians and the format is to play a song, chit-chat with the audience, relay personal stories or info about the song, then play the next - and many people enjoy that.

That may not be your cup of tea, and that's fine. You can always move on. I don't like everything I hear either - but I'm glad they're there, performing in one way or another, and providing me and Second Lifers entertainment should we be seeking it. I won't be crapping on their creative efforts that's for sure.

56 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

So if you think a ren fare, or coffee shop, or karaoke singer  is a true musician think again ...

They don't need to be. One day they might be, as many of us have - and we got our start (and sometimes continue to) perform in coffee shops and other.

What's important is that they're making noise and doing what they love - and providing entertainment and content for you and the rest of us.

56 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

I know everyone is different and have different tastes, but don't go criticize a hard working rock musician because you didn't get your name called out..

Hey, work the audience. You don't have to change your act too much, but would it hurt to give the audience what they want?

I'm very much the performing type to come out on stage, rock the set, and walk off... but even I learned sometimes giving a nod to the audience, thanking them for being there, asking them if they're having fun, and engaging them MORE than I normally would has paid off in the past. Of course, I have my boundaries - I'm not going to be the Master of Ceremonies as some vocalists in bands are, selling drinks and telling jokes - but hey your level of comfort is fine. But engage, don't get mad at your audience. They're there to be entertained, and you are there to entertain (and have your own fun in the process)

56 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

That band is the one who is important at that moment,to give the fans and audience a good time and show. Okay enough of my rant.. You wish to know more then contact me... OksanaSedia... One of  Shakespeare's most famous lines: "If music be the food of love, play on."  Rock On and be well... Oksana

Yes, follow your own declared motto: Give the audience a good time and show.

Be humble in what you're doing and respectful of others not as talented as you, as YOU may be subjected to the same judgement as well in some music circles.

Accept feedback from your audience, and make changes to make them happy - or they won't come back and you'll be playing Van Halen covers to an empty room.

Rock on bro.

 

Edited by entity0x
Keeping it real
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In the end, people listen to music that they like. It's a bit egotistical for any performer to presume that he can tell an audience what they ought to listen to. If people want to sit in small groups and listen to an amateur strum out old folk tunes, that's their business. Standing up and shouting "But you're supposed to like ME!" isn't a good marketing plan.  Just play your music and be happy with whoever shows up.  You don't have to tear down other musicians.

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4 minutes ago, entity0x said:

I know fellow 'musicians' that would claim that cover bands are not musicians either - they scoff at those who do covers. They may also say "They're not real musicians, they're just playing someone else's music. Dude is just role-playing Eddie Van Halen"

100%. So much this. It's not a belief I hold whatsoever (I watch covers on YouTube all the time and the musicians are actually quite good at musical arrangement and interpreting songs to make them their own), but you absolutely do run the risk of someone calling you out for not being a real true musician either, so I wouldn't be so quick to put down others who are, at least in some cases, perhaps writing their own material.

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Do you know why Dua Lipa doesn't perform in SL?
She sells all tickets for a concert in the O2 Arena in London or Madison Square in NY within hours with ease.

So yeah, most artists don't match with her level when they perform in the Rosegarden somewhere in SL.
I still heard some great performances over the years in SL though.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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8 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

 

Do you know why Dua Lipa doesn't perform in SL?
She sells all tickets for a concert in the O2 Arena in London or Madison Square in NY within hours with ease.

 

Well, then she could sure afford to perform in SL! Plus -it would be great advertising for Second Life!

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This is almost comical.  Who's to say the OP is talented?  Would you or I think they were worth listening to?  What one finds enjoyable is subjective.  I'd prefer the coffee shop performer who engages with the audience as opposed to the person who stands up there strumming and singing in a vacuum.   Different strokes, right?

I absolutely hate the sound of Bob Dylan's voice.  It just grates on my nerves.  That's not to say I don't enjoy his music sung by others.  Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not art.

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25 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

You asked for it here it is, a link to our band doing a virtual event in sl  I am lead singer/Guitarist. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZw5GVmQX7s

Using your logic are you less a musician for not writing your own music? (Snide remark yes. All honesty, I think you and your band are great. It's a real shame you have a lesser view of other musicians. I am sure this type of attitude isn't helpful to you or your bandmates if you're looking to gain more followers.) 

Edited by Finite
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15 minutes ago, OksanaSedia said:

You asked for it here it is, a link to our band doing a virtual event in sl  I am lead singer/Guitarist. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZw5GVmQX7s

thx for link i love rock! i had a marshall stack once! that was friggen loud! i spent like a year learning the lead to stairway to heaven and train kept a rollin. i wish i still had my  Gibson L6-S . that was one pretty guitar. my ibenez les paul copy black with gold parts was awesome too. getting thrown out of my high school guitar class for jammin good times lol i always thought the reason many call out people in their audience was to show they were live and not just playing a recording...maybe it helps with getting tips too. i have a friend who is a rl edm artist and im always trying to get him to do sl shows but he says he gets 1 to 2k in real life so why do sl. 

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9 minutes ago, SodaGnome said:

thx for link i love rock! i had a marshall stack once! that was friggen loud! i spent like a year learning the lead to stairway to heaven and train kept a rollin. i wish i still had my  Gibson L6-S . that was one pretty guitar. my ibenez les paul copy black with gold parts was awesome too. getting thrown out of my high school guitar class for jammin good times lol i always thought the reason many call out people in their audience was to show they were live and not just playing a recording...maybe it helps with getting tips too. i have a friend who is a rl edm artist and im always trying to get him to do sl shows but he says he gets 1 to 2k in real life so why do sl. 

Greetings I am also a part time luithier I make my own custom left handed guitars, thanks for the comments

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So, I could pick apart that performance and critique all sorts of things that I feel others do better and wave a broom in the air (I dunno, just sounded good) and proclaim you're not a real musician! I'd never do that, though, because quite clearly you are and you do what you do well. In truth, I'd just whine about the production, as that's more in my wheelhouse.

I watch a dude on YouTube and Twitch who plays keyboard in his underwear and makes the most FIRE 100% original songs up off the top of his head across full 2+ hour streams - fully improv. I also watch a guy who reads his chat and raps freestyle about the topics random people throw at him for over an hour per stream without missing a beat. That's the level of raw talent I appreciate and respect most. It would be super easy for me to say - cover artists aren't real musicians! But again - it's all different and you're ALL talented. Musicians and industry pros, hobbyists, and amateurs should support each other. It is ALWAYS always always always a struggle making any kind of career out of that and whether you're busking on a subway singing Frank Sinatra or performing live at Coachella - all music is valid (though not everybody's going to like it, which is why fans exist).

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2 hours ago, SodaGnome said:

I love this zepplin cover:

 

I still prefer Dread Zeppelin myself! 😜

Seriously though, that's a great cover, her voice is reminiscent of Linda Perry and the overall style reminds me a little of Lamb.

Some of my favourite artists are known for doing covers, one of them started her career by releasing home videos on Youtube at around the age of 12 or 13, and I can honestly say that in a lot of cases I prefer her versions to the originals, not least because the modest backdrop of a home made video and the lack of glitzy production values really puts the focus on the music and her talents as a vocalist.

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25 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Definitely not  what I'd go see but then I've always been more of an acoustic/folksie/classical kind of girl. 

My tastes are pretty eclectic and I'l listen to different types depending on my mood but of all the genres that I listen to I think I most enjoy ballads and acoustic music. Artists like Sarah Mclachlan, The Indigo Girls and Jasmine Thompson (who I was referring to in my previous post) are among my favourites.

 

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13 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

My tastes are pretty eclectic and I'l listen to different types depending on my mood but of all the genres that I listen to I think I most enjoy ballads and acoustic music. Artists like Sarah Mclachlan, The Indigo Girls and Jasmine Thompson (who I was referring to in my previous post) are among my favourites.

 

She did a really good cover of Bastille’s Pompeii too. Tear jerking kinda good.

 

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