Why does it matter?

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

No women shirt, no men shirt, just shirt that needs to get done.

We can do it!

As a wise person once said, "Don't lose your shirt!"

[LunaRavencroft]

I often wonder that same thing. What those idiots don't seem to understand, is that...

A. It's my privacy you're attempting to violate, and I will not allow that.
B. I do not care, I'm not here to please you, I'm here to enjoy my time.
3. A real life meetup is not happening, unless you're my other half, and, that position is filled.
D. I'm not here, to stroke your ego, help your insecurity of what I MIGHT be on the other side of the keyboard, or any of that.
E. I'm not here, least of all, to explain myself to you. I'm not a book, and, if you're someone that tries to make me explain myself, get stepping, you're not the person for me.

[Ceka Cianci]

Someone on voice yelling when i have voice off.

Me noticing someone just standing there staring..

I think what we have here is.... A failure, to C'mmunicate

 

hehehehe

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

“Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society” Mark Twain

“The apparel oft proclaims the man.” Shakespeare The Tragedy of Hamlet

“vestis virum facit”– clothes make the man. Erasmus –The Encyclopedia of Proverbs (Adagia 3.1.60)

“From these things [clothes and personal care], you may be sure, men get a good report” Homer the Odyssey

As a ring of gold in a swine’s snout, So is a fair woman without discretion. Proverbs 11:22

"When I dress like a hooker, I get treated like one". Arielle Popstar, Secondlife

Regardless whether I am doing it for others or not, I should not be surprised at IM's or other approaches that are a reflection of the particular style I chose that day. To do so denies that human nature exists.

Interesting set of quotes. You've got a joke from Twain, advice from Polonius, who is an utterly inept fool in Hamlet, and some really ancient comments from religious and ancient Greek sources. You do realize that the Odyssey is nearly 3000 years old, and Proverbs nearly the same age, right? Not precisely au courant.

I am very far from thinking that clothes are not a form of self-expression. Some years ago, I started a thread here on that subject, in fact, and on the subtle differences between dressing "sexily," and trying to communicate that one is "available" for sex. Some people are better at self-expression through clothing than others -- and a whole lot of people are very very poor "readers" of clothing.

But there is a world of difference between "reading" and understanding how someone is communicating themselves through clothing, and acting on it. And clothing does not constitute consent.

I might also note that anyone who treats a sex worker as though she were dirt, without the right to dignity and self-determination, is a pretty crappy human being in my book.

[Love Zhaoying]

20 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I might also note that anyone who treats a sex worker as though she were dirt, without the right to dignity and self-determination, is a pretty crappy human being in my book.

Being the "oldest profession", you'd think it gets respected more!

[Myntz Mysterious]

Here is one of my personal experiences that stands out in my mind. While it doesnt have anything to do with voice, or the accusation of gender. It did become an unwanted interaction. Bare with me as I recall this from memory...

I was standing in the Firestorm Sandbox dressed as an police avatar. And NOT a "sexy" avatar mind you but just a regular street cop as found in the US here. I was editing the police vest adding/removing attachments. I get an IM that went something along these lines:

Someone: Cute avatar

Me: Thanks ❤️ ( I normally add the heart thinking its a genuine compliment with nothing more) 

Someone: Want to handcuff me?

Me: No thanks

Someone: ah come on...

Me: No

 

At this point his replies escalated into calling me a b!tch and what not. I blocked them. But then while I cant be sure it was the same person or not green particle gas started showing up where I was standing and trying to edit... 😠

I promptly packed up and went to the premium sandbox to finish my job.

 

For myself I have NO clue why he expected I wanted sexy time or anything of that nature other then just being a general a$$hat. 😒

I definitely dont feel typing the < and a 3 is an open invitation to whatever your pervy desires are... If thats some male trigger or some sorts... IDK.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Myntz Mysterious
updated with <3

[Ayashe Ninetails]

In the case Persephone describes, clothes were only part of the equation (and the dress wasn't even that revealing - I've seen and worn way worse just roaming around and rarely got comments on it - even before I shaved mah head). She was purple with purple and teal hair. It's not like she was trying to represent a realistic-looking human woman or anything, so why he felt it necessary to verify anything is beyond me.

 

 

[kali Wylder]

The simple truth is, you cannot control what other people do or think.  There are people who come to SL who are just looking for the sexy time and they don't care about anything else.  They may say rude things to you because they think rude things all the time to the exclusion of pretty much anything else.  It's not about you, it's about them. 

While that sucks, it doesn't have to ruin your day.  Just as we don't have any power over them, they don't have any power over us either.  Ignore them, mute them and move the frick on.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

It does not surprise me that human bodies are attracted to other human bodies because there is a biological basis for this (when this occurs, as it does not always -- some people are asexual).

But manner of dress (style) and what others find attractive is culturally determined.
This "human nature" in style of dress and what one should find attractive you point to does not exist in any absolute form -- it is a cultural creation. It may have been decided to be true by a culture at a particular point in time, by men who believed women's bodies exist mainly for their pleasure and by the women who agreed in order to fit in, but it is not an absolute reality. It was a creation by people who wanted a certain order to society so they could exact maximum control for their benefit, through owning women in various ways.

So there can be no absolute as to what any particular person finds attractive. Nor can there be any absolute style of dress indicating a desire to engage with others. It's subject to interpretation.

Some might find showing more skin especially appealing, while others find it repulsive.
Typically a straight male has had the perspective in recent centuries that finds showing more skin appealing and indicative of a desire to engage with them. Too much skin showing and a woman is often labeled as promiscuous, as a s-l-u-t.

Again, past cultural perspectives are never set in stone.
Sorry (not), but the world is changing -- it's not exclusively the world of the straight male anymore.

Cultural differences aside, the manner of dress still communicates to another what one is about at that moment. One might be unaware that a certain dress style is an expression of something they do not intend to convey but then it is on them to learn that is it not?

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But there is a world of difference between "reading" and understanding how someone is communicating themselves through clothing, and acting on it. And clothing does not constitute consent.

I might also note that anyone who treats a sex worker as though she were dirt, without the right to dignity and self-determination, is a pretty crappy human being in my book.

A world of difference? That seems a rather strong statement. If I am expressing through my clothing that I am available to be hit on, then that action is exactly what I am wanting. If you on the other hand wish to dress in a manner that communicates the same but don't want the action, do you wear a chastity belt so they understand you are not available? Seems some sort of self gratification to dress provocatively but be insulted if someone didn't get the memo to not pay attention to what your dress style is expressing.

[Innula Zenovka]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

A world of difference? That seems a rather strong statement. If I am expressing through my clothing that I am available to be hit on, then that action is exactly what I am wanting. If you on the other hand wish to dress in a manner that communicates the same but don't want the action, do you wear a chastity belt so they understand you are not available? Seems some sort of self gratification to dress provocatively but be insulted if someone didn't get the memo to not pay attention to what your dress style is expressing.

To my mind, the way someone else may be dressed, in either First or Second Life, does not absolve anyone else of their responsibility to behave with courtesy and consideration. 

Perhaps you disagree.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Innula Zenovka said:

To my mind, the way someone else may be dressed, in either First or Second Life, does not absolve anyone else of their responsibility to behave with courtesy and consideration. 

Perhaps you disagree.

Courtesy and consideration is fine but what I am reading in some of these posts from others is being insulted in receiving any sort of communication at all.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

A world of difference? That seems a rather strong statement. If I am expressing through my clothing that I am available to be hit on, then that action is exactly what I am wanting. If you on the other hand wish to dress in a manner that communicates the same but don't want the action, do you wear a chastity belt so they understand you are not available? Seems some sort of self gratification to dress provocatively but be insulted if someone didn't get the memo to not pay attention to what your dress style is expressing.

Who gets to decide what is "provocative"? You've seen in this thread -- and there are countless other examples sprinkled throughout this forum, and that many of us have experienced first-hand -- that there are some whose interpretation of clothing is idiosyncratic, to say the least. There is no universally accepted "grammar" or "vocabulary" for "provocative."

And even if one actually is dressed to attract sexual partners, for whatever reason and under whatever context, one is still a human being, deserving of respect. Innula beat me to it, but if you want to treat someone like an object, you need to establish first that that is their intention.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Courtesy and consideration is fine but what I am reading in some of these posts from others is being insulted in receiving any sort of communication at all.

No, you are not reading that at all. No one has said any such thing as I recall.

In fact, I explicitly noted that I understand, even if I don't enjoy, polite attempts to connect with me sexually.

[Silent Mistwalker]

It doesn't matter if I am wearing shorts and halter top or a bikini when I wash my vehicle. What I wear is still not an open invitation to hit on me. I'm washing my damn truck!

And yes that did happen to me in RL.

If I wear the same type of clothing in SL it is not an open invitation to be hit on. I'm wearing it because I feel like it. And because it just might be the dead of winter where I live and I am longing for warmer weather.

What people wear is NOT AN OPEN INVITATION.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Who gets to decide what is "provocative"?

My mother and the other ladies in the area that I walk into with a short dress, plunging neckline while balancing on 6 inch spikes. Especially if their boyfriends or husbands are in the room.😏

[Rowan Amore]

Personally, regardless of how I'm dressed or where I am, I find blatant sexual advances FROM STRANGERS rude.  When talking to random people, which I often do, I'm very aware of what I say and how I say it so they don't get the impression I'm hitting them up for anything other than a chat.  By the way, I talk almost exclusively to men.  They will occasionally try to steer the conversation in one direction and I gently steer it back.  

Edited April 21, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Arielle Popstar]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 There is no universally accepted "grammar" or "vocabulary" for "provocative."

And even if one actually is dressed to attract sexual partners, for whatever reason and under whatever context, one is still a human being, deserving of respect. Innula beat me to it, but if you want to treat someone like an object, you need to establish first that that is their intention.

What constitutes respect for you, likely differs what it does for me and others in the same way that provocative differs in its interpretation depending on culture and the social position. I don't expect that the blue collar bricklayer will communicate respect in the same way as a University educator or a Prince. Each will differ in how they express it but a Princess will likely not understand the respect from the bricklayer as she would from a Prince. And the daughter of the bricklayer not get that of the Prince. One must make for allowances for how others communicate before getting up in arms about it.

[Rolig Loon]

"But, Your Honor, he called my wife a pig, so I shot him."

"I had to kill him. He was wearing another gang's colors."

"I didn't mean to run him off the road, but he gave me the finger."

"She was wearing a short dress, so I assaulted her."

It's usually not smart to poke a strange dog with a stick. If the dog bites you, though, he's the one that Animal Control is supposed to chain up.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What constitutes respect for you, likely differs what it does for me and others in the same way that provocative differs in its interpretation depending on culture and the social position. I don't expect that the blue collar bricklayer will communicate respect in the same way as a University educator or a Prince. Each will differ in how they express it but a Princess will likely not understand the respect from the bricklayer as she would from a Prince. And the daughter of the bricklayer not get that of the Prince. One must make for allowances for how others communicate before getting up in arms about it.

"Respect" is not about the form of words. It's an attitude -- not just something that one conveys through language, but way in governs oneself in interactions such as to show that you value the other person as another human.

A bricklayer is every bit as capable of communicating respect as a prince, even if they address me with a "Hey, you."

[Silent Mistwalker]

On 4/19/2022 at 10:34 PM, PermaRuthed said:

Oh, but what fun it'll be!

Anyone else notice who is in the window?

[Rowan Amore]

Respect = polite and civil

We live in a civilization.  People have mentioned in this thread that it's a basic animal instinct.  Well, some animals kill their young, some even eat them.  Let's all hope we've risen above those instincts.

[JuliaFina]

8 hours ago, Karl Herber said:

when I'm male, NOBODY speaks to me.

one big reason so many men play on female avatars

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, JuliaFina said:

one big reason so many men play on female avatars

But I only talk to males.

[Arielle Popstar]

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

"Respect" is not about the form of words. It's an attitude -- not just something that one conveys through language, but way in governs oneself in interactions such as to show that you value the other person as another human.

A bricklayer is every bit as capable of communicating respect as a prince, even if they address me with a "Hey, you."

A "Hey you" is one greeting that no attitude will compensate for. I remember distinct remonstrances from parents about not using "Hey you" for greetings so would not be too accepting of it regardless who it came from.

[Silent Mistwalker]