Second Chance For Banned Users

[vanillaicedcoffee]

Over the course of the pandemic I had an opportunity to reconnect with a lot of my old SL friends who had previously moved on from the game. A lot of these folks were banned at various points over the last eight or so years. Some left the game behind entirely once they were banned but most have continued to come around on 'alt' accounts that usually only last a few days before LL bans them again. This post isn't a defense of any of these players. I am sure in some or all cases these people were banned for breaching TOS and may have hurt other players in some way by doing so. However, I am curious what my fellow SL players think about banned players being offered a second chance, years later?

For context, a lot of the people I am thinking of came to SL when they were quite young (late teens and early twenties) - specifically when SL trolling was quite popular on Youtube. Many came to SL without any regard for the inevitable friendships they would make. I certainly had no idea that eight years ago I would start playing a game and end up making some of the most meaningful connections of my life. Or that I would find myself investing in creative hobbies that SL introduced me to. A lot of these banned players are the same. They came here to mess around and eventually found the game quite meaningful. 

Lastly - for the banned players who have a deep desire to return as 'unbanned' players, it's because they have a real interest in investing financially and communally to the game in ways they can't banned. They want to buy from creators, own land, create hangouts, make things. They can certainly continue to make new accounts every few days but that serves no one. If a banned player simply wanted to come on SL to hurt others or create chaos, doing so as a banned player is almost easier - less to worry about, and zero consequences. However, by giving these folks a second chance, after they've learned their lesson and matured, you actually give them an incentive to be better citizens of SL. 

What are others thoughts on this? And again, I am not defending what these people may or may not have done and I do not want this discussion to become about that. Thanks!

[Mollymews]

it depends on what is meant by come back. If it means coming back as a pseudo-anonymous account then I probably say no

i think that such a person wanting to make a case that they are remorseful of what they did, and more importantly are able to show that as a real world person they are no longer the griefer they once were, that they have matured over the intervening years, are a responsible person today,  and that there are real world character witnesses of repute willing to support them

there is already a process for disputing a Linden ruling.  Section 10 of the Linden Lab ToS.  The grounds for dispute could be that a real world lifetime ban is maybe overly harsh

we have to go thru dispute resolution as a real world person tho. Which I think Linden would insist on. It may be that Linden may decide that based on the real world character change evidence they would let the Section 10 Arbitrator make the decision. Linden would also I think most likely expect the person to pay for the arbitration, regardless of decision

edit: Section 10 here

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos#tos10

Edited April 10, 2022 by Mollymews
of

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 hours ago, vanillaicedcoffee said:

Over the course of the pandemic I had an opportunity to reconnect with a lot of my old SL friends who had previously moved on from the game. A lot of these folks were banned at various points over the last eight or so years. Some left the game behind entirely once they were banned but most have continued to come around on 'alt' accounts that usually only last a few days before LL bans them again. This post isn't a defense of any of these players. I am sure in some or all cases these people were banned for breaching TOS and may have hurt other players in some way by doing so. However, I am curious what my fellow SL players think about banned players being offered a second chance, years later?

For context, a lot of the people I am thinking of came to SL when they were quite young (late teens and early twenties) - specifically when SL trolling was quite popular on Youtube. Many came to SL without any regard for the inevitable friendships they would make. I certainly had no idea that eight years ago I would start playing a game and end up making some of the most meaningful connections of my life. Or that I would find myself investing in creative hobbies that SL introduced me to. A lot of these banned players are the same. They came here to mess around and eventually found the game quite meaningful. 

Lastly - for the banned players who have a deep desire to return as 'unbanned' players, it's because they have a real interest in investing financially and communally to the game in ways they can't banned. They want to buy from creators, own land, create hangouts, make things. They can certainly continue to make new accounts every few days but that serves no one. If a banned player simply wanted to come on SL to hurt others or create chaos, doing so as a banned player is almost easier - less to worry about, and zero consequences. However, by giving these folks a second chance, after they've learned their lesson and matured, you actually give them an incentive to be better citizens of SL. 

What are others thoughts on this? And again, I am not defending what these people may or may not have done and I do not want this discussion to become about that. Thanks!

 

They should have thought of those things before they did whatever stupid thing it was they did to get banned. You have to do something pretty drastic to be banned considering you are suspended several times before LL lowers the ban hammer. If you weren't suspended and just outright banned then, again, you should have thought of that first because the only time LL does that is when you have done something so heinous, so reprehensible, the PTB don't want you on their grid.

LL can and does ban any alternate accounts a banned person makes and rightfully so. I am glad they do because of what I have had to deal with in the last few years even before Covid-19. Person kept coming back on alt accounts to harass and stalk her victims and she is still doing it. Do I want her allowed on the grid? Hell no! I've barely logged in, in the past 2 years because of her. I've never been suspended or banned. Why should I have to tolerate being harassed and stalked inworld and in RL?

Why should LL give anyone who circumvents a well-deserved ban a second chance when they've already blown that second chance by circumventing the ban? That shows right there they haven't learned anything.

Yes, you are defending them by the very act of posting in their defense to convince others they deserve to be unbanned when that is not in the best interests of Second Life and its residents.

They've already had second, third and fourth chances. They don't deserve another.

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Coffee Pancake]

A permanent ban only punishes those capable of realizing their mistakes and learning from them.

To even suggest a ban is in anyway a ban fundamentally misunderstands how bans operate at a technical level, the persistent will always find a way to continue. 

Everyone else should have the opportunity to grow with time and experience.

Even with the experiences of harassments and abuse I have had from SL users, I would not oppose outright account bans being replaced with a long suspension, with a known expiry date and a email from LL welcoming them back when it expired. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

long suspension

Would 14 days be long enough? Or would you recommend a much longer time period? Months? Years?  I ask because round about the fourth suspension is when they slap you with the 14 days, after you've already been suspended for 1, 3 and (I think) 7 days, previously. So, you've already been suspended for at least 11 days, if not 2 weeks. The first suspension should have been more than enough time to realize you need to stop whatever it is.

I'm not opposed to your idea, but it needs to be more of deterrent. Maybe if they were to lose all inventory. On the other hand, many that circumvent bans with alt accounts don't have anything invested in any account. They're in SL for one reason only; to "have fun" at someone else's expense. Thier idea of fun isn't fun to their victims.

[Coffee Pancake]

In the case of a repeated suspensions .. after 2 weeks, just jump to 6 months and then a year.

Sort of saying to the user "look, this isn't working out, maybe you're going though some things .. take a decent break", a lot can change in year.

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

If they need 6 months to a year, they should be checking into rehab.

[Sid Nagy]

20 years should do in the worst cases, if nobody got killed.
People who use their time to harass big time, don't understand the meaning of a social platform, so why bother to keep them active members?

Normally one doesn't get suspended for wearing the wrong mesh body or shoes.
Let's have a peaceful world as possible.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Rowan Amore]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the OP mentioned older teens and young adults?  I'd assume after 8 years or so, they may have moved out of wherever they were living, be it parents home, dorm/student housing, first apartment.  Wouldn't that change of address also come with a change of IP address?  Aren't those what LL uses to ban multiple accounts from one user?  Have these friends been banned on multiple IP addresses?   

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Aren't those what LL uses to ban multiple accounts from one user?

Answering that question in any detail will probably get me poked, so I shall simply say "no".

[Persephone Emerald]

As humans we have the ability to learn from our mistakes. In order for this psychological function to work, there has to be negative consequences for one's socially unacceptable behavior. Your friends are apparently realizing the negative consequences of the behavior that got them banned. That they kept getting banned could mean it took them awhile to get the message. If it was serious enough in the eyes of Linden Lab to give them an IP address ban (or computer ID ban) that would ban their alts, the people who they bothered inworld are probably glad they can't come back. Have they been banned from other platforms too? How many slaps on the wrists and time-outs has it taken them to realize that other people on these platforms have feelings and deserve the ability to play in a space they may even be paying to help support without being harassed?

Your friends can make new accounts. If that doesn't work, maybe they can try using a VPN or something to hide their IP address. Failing that, maybe they'd like to go play on some other platform that restricts their behavior more because it doesn't assume it's users are going to behave like considerate, responsible adults.

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

Answering that question in any detail will probably get me poked, so I shall simply say "no".

Then continually being banned on multiple accounts over the years seems to mean they continue with the bad behavior?  Not sure how else they would know it's the same person.

[Sid Nagy]

8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Then continually being banned on multiple accounts over the years seems to mean they continue with the bad behavior?  Not sure how else they would know it's the same person.

Maybe the rumor that the Lindens are some kind of Gods is true afterall.

[kali Wylder]

I don't know any reformed banned people.  I don't actually know anyone who has been banned, reformed or otherwise.  I cannot pretend to be able to judge their character, their remorse or their resolve to be better.

But I think the state of being permanently banned from participating in the virtual platform involved more than a single chance occurrence of bad behavior.  Second chances were already given and abused prior to the permanent ban.

Why take a chance on a bad bet? 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

29 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

I don't actually know anyone who has been banned, reformed or otherwise.

Oh yes you do.

And he kept coming back here, on alt after alt after alt.

And he was definitely NOT "reformed."

[Coffee Pancake]

I know plenty who joined SL, caused a royal mess and we're forcefully removed. Who then came back a year or two later a little wiser and far more invested in the platform, its future and their place in it.

Some of our most dedicated contributing members started out that way.

The report ban process isn't always perfect, I've seen it catch and ban people who personally did nothing wrong, but someone found a way to frame their actions as an offense.

Including region owners who kept paying the bills for months while trying to appeal, literally spending well over a thousand USD and being unable to access the platform in the hope they could get a fair shake from LL. When they eventually got back, the community they had fostered had moved on and the place never recovered.

One friend was being antagonized by a jerk and and got asked how old she was, she responded by in kind by emoting *holds up a four fingers*, meaning she made a rude gesture, AP ban. No appeal. Store, years of work, years invested in the platform, she was in an LDR with another resident. All nuked. Broke her heart and she never came back.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[Silent Mistwalker]

Those that come back and aren't causing problems, I have no issue with, IF they truly learned. If you go advertising it, don't be surprised when you are banned again. By that I mean, if you tell a single person you are an alt of a banned account, when you finally get banned for it, don't look for sympathy. You knew the risk when you blew your own cover.

Most people I don't bother with since they never did anything to me. It's the ones that have harassed and stalked me that I will AR without hesitation.

[Madelaine McMasters]

LL can't truly ban anyone from SL. They can only deprive people of their existing SL investments (name, account balance, inventory, etc.) and make it a bit more difficult to return anew. IP, MAC, and E-mail addresses are easily changed. Even CC info can be spoofed by the motivated.

Whether people return to their old accounts at the end of a ban or immediately via new accounts has no effect on LL's ability to detect recidivism. If holding out hope of regaining one's old identity and inventory encourages turning over a new leaf, then finite bans have value.

[Nika Talaj]

12 hours ago, vanillaicedcoffee said:

They want to buy from creators, own land, create hangouts, make things. They can certainly continue to make new accounts every few days but that serves no one.

If they are reformed and their conduct is good, why do they have to make new accounts every few days?  Do you mean that LL finds them and bans the new accounts?  I have to say that repeatedly violating TOS by creating new accounts when you've been banned is not going to motivate LL to extend mercy.

I feel bad for Coffee Pancake's friend mistakenly AP banned.  LL really has little choice with those reports.  I hope they make some efforts to ensure that there are no players who repeatedly make such reports.

I know of two truly banned troublemakers, both fairly creative individuals.  One was a mature guy, one was young.  I know that one of them has made major changes in their RL, and I STILL would not want them to return to SL.  Both these people exhibited character flaws that seemed to me to require therapy to alter, and I'm pretty sure that no one at LL is qualified to or interested in evaluating their current mental state.  I hope their bans hold.  If not, I hope they've learned enough that their current conduct is above suspicion.

Sometimes you make mistakes in life that have consequences.  Learning to live with those consequences is part of maturation.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Nika Talaj

[Sid Nagy]

And lets not forget that Second Life is not a necessity in life. There are a gazillion and one other possibilities for a banned person to fill their leisure time with. After all they are not put in jail or something.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Orwar]

   For the most part, by the time you get yourself banned from SL, you've already received your second warning/chance.

   As for whether all bans are fair or reasonable, or whether LL ought to allow people to appeal, it's not really for us to say. If a friend of ours gets banned, and they give us their side of the story, ours is hardly an impartial perspective. 

[Pamela Galli]

LL is a business, not a nanny or therapist. If they decide that they no longer want to do business with people who are consuming too many governance / support resources and therefore costing them money, they should not feel obligated to devote yet more resources to psychoanalyze someone to determine  whether they have reformed. 

Spend a few minutes in the Firestorm help group for some idea of how many deranged hysterical people there are on this platform — any steps to rid SL of them or any other type of griefer or TOS breaker is a win. Let them start over somewhere else.

[Lindal Kidd]

I'm with Silent on this one. You have to be pretty darn awful to get permabanned. LL is slow to ban because it amounts to shooting themselves in the foot financially. They WANT customers!

But some people seem to have the mistaken belief that a ban is punishment. Yes, it certainly seems like that to the person banned, and their friends (if any). But a ban is not intended as punishment. It's a surgical procedure to protect the grid from people who do far more harm to SL than any revenue they might bring in.

[So Whimsy]

40 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

LL is a business, not a nanny or therapist. If they decide that they no longer want to do business with people who are consuming too many governance / support resources and therefore costing them money, they should not feel obligated to devote yet more resources to psychoanalyze someone to determine  whether they have reformed. 

Spend a few minutes in the Firestorm help group for some idea of how many deranged hysterical people there are on this platform — any steps to rid SL of them or any other type of griefer or TOS breaker is a win. Let them start over somewhere else.

You took the words right out of my mouth, couldn't have said it any better. 100% agree with you.

[Love Zhaoying]

Perhaps if there were the equivalent of a 12-Step Program: admit you're wrong, make it up to those you've hurt, etc.