Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Guest

Godwin! Already?

Recommended Posts

It's true what I said, I thought you meant flirting.  But I wasn't completely sure.  Oh, and you're welcome.  It was an excellent post.

/me rawrs at Storm. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've NEVER heard anyone rawr with an exclaimation point.

  :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:

/me blushes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Dillon Levenque wrote:

I don't really think Winston Churchill was solely responsible for the defeat of the Axis, but reading his history of the Second World War certainly does give that impression (I exaggerate slightly). 

Churchhill was like the coach in the Gipper, he gave encouraging speeches and made the allies feel better. Former US President Kennedy said that Churchill "mobilized the English language and sent it into battle." One of my favorite Churchill quotes regarding his previous hatred toward Stalin is "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons."

Words are like weapons and a great wizard can use them for good or evil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Randall Ahren wrote:

 One of my favorite Churchill quotes regarding his previous hatred toward Stalin is "
If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons
."

Words are like weapons and a great wizard can use them for good or evil.

Wow. One of mine too. I am pretty sure he quoted himself in his history that I referenced. Probably not long after a comment about the fact that about a month after Hitler invaded Russia he noticed that posters proclaiming "Stop the Imperialist War!"  were being replaced by ones proclaiming "Second Front NOW!"

I meant no disrespect for WSC. I happen to think he was a shining example of Anglo-American cooperation (his mother was an American) and if not the most important political figure of his century certainly on a very short list. And you're right; he was a wizard with words.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Randall Ahren wrote:

[..] Words are like weapons and a great wizard can use them for good or evil.

 not just weapons; shields, diseases, medicine, tools to discover or hide the truth, and bend perception. not just words, but information in general. becoming aware of it and learning to use it is life altering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Under the context it might not get AR'd much... but I dunno what all reaction it may get. Playing it safer would be to use any other Nazi symbols in its place... it is only the swastika that risks getting the huge controversy up I think, meanwhile there is other accurate symbols (for example the formal version with eagle) to use so they could be minimizing or leaving absent the swastika.... not perfectly realistic but a good compromise maybe :matte-motes-impatient:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Void Singer wrote:


Randall Ahren wrote:

[..] Words are like weapons and a great wizard can use them for good or evil.

 not just weapons; shields, diseases, medicine, tools to discover or hide the truth, and bend perception. not just words, but information in general. becoming aware of it and learning to use it is life altering.

In the actual real life event on which the Gipper was based, Notre Dame had an extremely poor football team that year. Knute Rockne tried to salvage the season by telling his players about George Gipp's dying wish at half time in their game against undefeated Army. The story transformed the team. Physically, they were the same, but their mental state was far different. They retook the field and handed Army its first loss of the season. Churchill did something similar, but he elevated the mental state of an entire nation. 

My hypothesis is that humans are state machines and what Rockne and Churchill did was use words to cause a state change in others. I further hypothesize that when a human is in one state, the human almost always thinks that this is the only state there is and has no memory of other states.

That is why weight loss programs typically fail. A person makes a vow to diet and exercise for their New Year resolution when they are in a determined state and do not realize how weak their will power is in their normal state. Weight loss is not a question of what to do, it's how to do. The what is obvious, diet and exercise. The how is to recreate the determined state.

Some people are able to recreate heightened mental states almost at will; we call them prophets and sometimes CEOs. Steve Jobs is legendary for maintaining a heightened mental state. He views his work as going out to put a ding in the universe. Philip Rosedale was probably in a heightened mental state when he first wrote the code that became SL. He probably cranked out builds in hours that would have normally taken weeks in an ordinary state. 

Returning to the subject of the OP, banning of Nazi symbolism is an attempt to prevent recreation of the hateful state. It hasn't been working. 

ps: SL isn't just a virtual world. It's a state of mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish to support your efforts to recreate battlefields of the Second World War, maybe you might like to consider recreating a world I used to live in with buildings that were so amazing in a time when man really did know what it meant to have honour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The answer to your query is answered here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a

 

Anything or any other discussion is moot. Do not use banned nazi symbols. Note that the iron cross without the flag may not be banned. The more simple cross the nazis used may not be banned.

Everything you need to know is available on the internet. If you have further questions then open a support ticket or have your lawyer contact Linden Research Inc. directly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from Ann's link it doesn't sound like the symbols themselves are banned..

that symbols fall under their law  but how they are used is what is banned and not the symbols themselves..

 if it were to further some movement or cause that is considered unconstitutional in that country the law text was made for..

it doesn't sound like it is unconstitutional to further the education about something the symbols may have been used as in history..

here is the law text section  from that wiki..

just gonna  underline a couple points  but i would read the whole thing anyways hehehe..

ignore the bold at the bottom..i just backed into a bolded word and it blew everything up..so i underlined instead..

this forums software really does suck..

 

 

 

Law Text

The relevant excerpt [1] of the German criminal code reads:

 § 86 StGB Dissemination of Means of Propaganda of Unconstitutional Organizations

(1) Whoever domestically disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad, means of propaganda:

1. of a party which has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a party or organization, as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a party;

[…]

4. means of propaganda, the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine. […]

(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes. […]

 § 86a StGB Use of Symbols of Unconstitutional Organizations

(1) Whoever:

1. domestically distributes or publicly uses, in a meeting or in writings (§ 11 subsection (3)) disseminated by him, symbols of one of the parties or organizations indicated in § 86 subsection (1), nos. 1, 2 and 4; or
2. produces, stocks, imports or exports objects which depict or contain such symbols for distribution or use domestically or abroad, in the manner indicated in number 1,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(2) Symbols, within the meaning of subsection (1), shall be, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in sentence 1 shall be deemed to be equivalent thereto. […]

 

 

Symbols affected

The law text does not name the individual symbols to be outlawed, and there is no official exhaustive list. A symbol may be a flag, emblem, uniform parts, or a motto or greeting formula. Note that the prohibition isn't tied to the symbol itself but to its use in a context suggestive of association with outlawed organizations. Thus, the Swastika is outlawed if used in a context of völkisch ideology, while it is legitimate if used as a symbol of Hinduism or Buddhism. Similarly, the Wolfsangelis outlawed if used in the context of the Junge Front but not in other contexts such as heraldry, or as the emblem of "landscape poet" Hermann Löns. Due to the law, German Neo-Nazis took to displaying modified symbols similar but not identical with those outlawed. In 1994, such symbols were declared equivalent to the ones they imitate 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that wasn't the second life wiki..i was just commenting on the law itself..

LL can allow or disallow whatever they want aslong as it's legal..

if they open themselves up to educators they may want to make sure they don't come off looking nazi themselves by limiting some educator when they put up an image of the civil rights movement for a class discussion  and that image gets AR'd..hehehehe

it's thier world..they can ban whatever they want..they are not the internet or the last place any of those people can go to talk about it either lol

thats the good thing about choice.. we have it heehehe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Void Singer wrote:

german law has no bearing on non-german residents of second life... and why is a 4 months dead topic being resurrected anyways

The problem is that Second Life is an online game from a legal point of view. Computer games that feature Nazi symbols are prohibited in Germany. The (not very rational) rationale is that these games somehow glorify or glamorize the Nazi regime, unlike movies with an anti-Nazi message (Schindler's List etc.) 

If SL were to feature these symbols, the German government might seek ways to block access to SL. And since Germans constitute a considerable part of the SL population (there were more German residents than U.S. residents in 2007), LL wouldn't want that to happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My understanding is that Linden Lab has always enforced restrictions against the use of Nazi symbols, and it relates to it wanting to be compliant with German laws, and to avoid a possible internet ban from Germany and similar countries.  So while all this discussion about the value of allowing its depiction is interesting it is all moot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that was the german law text that was in Ann's link..

if LL was  not allowing them at all then they would be exceeding german laws on the matter..According to the law i read on it from that link the symbols are not against the law..depending on the way in which they are presented and used can be..

 

still it's LL's call if they want to let them on their grid or not..if they choose not to..

where is the section on this in the TOS anyways..i wanna read it..

not for this specific reason but to see what all it covers..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe this is neatly sidestepped by the rules on user generated content... as long as SL's point is something besides the (locally) banned content,  it gets treated much like a message board that may have unofficial content supplied by a user that is banned (locally), but is not the point or general promotion of the board itself. obviously users in a locality where it is banned would want to avoid those sections, as they could be problematic for them in local law, but to my knowledge Germany has never blocked a particular site over very limited contributions by users in select section where the site itself (or section in question) wasn't actually devoted to that cause in context.

in the past LL HAS banned or taken down groups that appear devoted to that particular cause, under the guise of "tolerance" clauses, (hence my first page suggestions), but there is no general policy against the symbology being used in historical context. (which is actually in-line with the german law as I understand it, although I admit I only have a general sense of german precedent)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LL bans any nazi or soviet imagery. Period. There is no second chance. Part of the issue may be LL handing control of who is allowed in SL to certain resident groups that AR party anyone they do not like. But what can we do? LL did it. We have no control.

That said there is some german WWII insignia LL has not been known to ban and that stuff happens to not be what is identified in the ambiguous wiki article on the german law. On the other hand, according to that wiki article, Celtic Crosses are banned. But they are not. And it would be silly to ban pre WWII era symbols. IMHO. In fact one of LL's fantasy Linden Homes has a symbol someone complained to me that was too nazi like to be allowed. LL doesn't care. Why should we?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Ann Otoole wrote:

LL bans any nazi or soviet imagery. Period. [...]

I have never seen evidence of this, and I should add that anyone pointing WWIIOLers or Woodbury as examples has completely missed the point of why bans came down on those particular communities

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Second Life listened to everyone who whined about sim or avatar themes this wonderful place would have been gone a long time ago. Eurpoeans might not understand the concept of real freedom but this is an American firm and as such has every right to allow everything and it should too.

It is the ultimate expression of racism to allow race based domination & slavery (there are many such sims in SL) and then exclude Nazi fetish (a fetish that has been around for a very long time) and exclude Jews from enjoying a demented fantasy. It would be like excluding Blacks from BDSM slavery or Whites from dominationg other races among consenting adults.

It should also be noted that the so called Nazi symbol was also painted on U.S. Navy warplanes prior to WWII and many product advertizements in the U.S. prior to WWII as a symbol of peace and prosperity not to mention its use by cultures all over the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I forgot to add that SL sells Nazi items on Xstreet which they are absolutely responsible for including items that display the Swastica and the Iron Cross among others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are mistaken. SL has many Nazi items being sold on their browser shopping site Xstreet which they are 100% responsible for and some of those items including om with a Swastica on it has been sold on Xstreet for a very long time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...